M3 heads and discrimination

[amanene13]

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

[Kyrah Abattoir]

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amanene13 wrote:

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

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Welcome to the club, i'm part of a small community of "realistically scaled avatars" and depending where we go people complain we are children >_>.

[Dresden Ceriano]

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amanene13 wrote:

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

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I wouldn't find it surprising at all that someone, who's unfamiliar with the reasoning behind anime's child-like aesthetic, would think of an anime-based avatar as a child and, therefore, ask them to leave a place where child avatars aren't welcomed.

...Dres

[juni333]

i need help i want to make my account premimum but its say temprory eary try later,,,,,,,,,

[Syo Emerald]

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juni333 wrote:

i need help i want to make my account premimum but its say temprory eary try later,,,,,,,,,

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Stop spamming every god damn thread. We are normal people like you, not LL.

 

On topic: If someone thinks your anime avatar looks like a child they can eject you and I have to say some of these avatars seem to be designed child-like, so thats no suprise for me. And I went to the marketplace to get an idea of what these heads look like...and sorry, but I would see that avatar as child-like too. (Not that it is meant to be a child, but for me it looks close enough to feel uncomfortable meeting that avatar on adult land. Its kind of the same disgust I have against animes which use characters that don't look like adults, but just keep saying said character is 18).

[ObviousAltIsObvious]

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amanene13 wrote:

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

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some of the most popular characters in that style are children or teenage. the shape, clothes, hair will make all the difference.

 

 

[MIstahMoose]

Seeing as most anime's are based around characters under the age of 18..It makes sense...

[Tari Landar]

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amanene13 wrote:

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

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If you look like a child avatar to someone in appearance and not just height, they've every reason to be cautious.  ALthough they've every reason to ban you just because, and they'd need no reason or explanation at all. But, certainly, some people make the choice to err on the side of cautiou quite simple for land/business owners.  I can't say I blame them. 

I was helping someone with a sim a couple of years ago and we, repeatedly, had to ask some people to either make their appearance at least a little less child-like, change their shape/clothing/mannerisms/chat(local), or leave. Although I respect that people want their avatars to look a certain way, I also respect that land and business owners may have rules(that I either like, or don't like, it doesn't much matter). It is almost always better to err on the side of caution, especially on A rated sims, and even some moderate ones-depending on the locale and what is going on at the time. I don't mind that folks decide to cover their own ass when it comes to things like child avs, or even child-like in appearance/mannerisms/profile/etc...avs. If I wanted to make myself look like a minor in even just appearance, I shouldn't be expecting every sim owner to welcome me with open arms. It's my choice to look that way, and it is their choice to determine if I am a good fit for their environment.

And yes, some of those characters, sorry, they look like kids, including teens, and there are lots of places kids and teens should not be.  Just as I would not go to a sim that requires human avs, wearing an animal or robot av, I would not go to an adult sim(or even some moderate ones) wearing a child-like av. Seems reasonable to me, though.

[Phil Deakins]

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amanene13 wrote:

Has anyone with an anime av been told to leave a sim over how they looked like a child? I never thought I'd actually run into this. But it seems we've been mixed up for child avs. :matte-motes-crying:

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The Title you chose for this thread seems to be wrong to me. It's the word 'discrimination' that seems to be wrong. You appear to imagine that your avatar was the subject of discimination because it looked like a child, but I don't know anyone, in any world, who discriminates against children. There are places where children should not be, and so they have to be moved out, but that's not discrimination. It's protecting the child. In different settings those same people would welcome children. It's just not discrimination. Not the sort that has a bad undertone, anyway.

None of us can do just what we want anywhere we want to do it, and we all have to accept that. If some places aren't suitable for children, then expect to be moved on if you look like a child. You haven't given any details, but I imagine the place where you were wasn't a suitable place for children, or simply a grown-up venue regardless of anything else.

I understand that you weren't intending to portray a child with your avatar but, according to some people in this thread, those avatars do look like children, and you have to accept the people will see them that way..

What puzzles me sometimes is when a small female avatar appears that's so small that, apart from one thing, it's definitely a child. But it has well-developed boobs. I've no idea what they are intended to be - very small adults or well-developed children - and I've no idea how to treat them - without actually asking, of course.

[Perrie Juran]

In some cases there may be an element of subjectivity as to whether an avatar (or other image) appears to be a minor. Objective factors which will be used to decide, including whether an avatar has childlike facial features, is child-sized, has clothing or accessories generally associated with children, and whether, based on the circumstances, an avatar is speaking or acting like a child ("My Mommy says...").

Note: Merely having a childlike avatar does not violate this policy. It is not our intent to banish childlike avatars in and of themselves.

If you are in doubt as to whether an activity may be interpreted as ageplay, we request you err on the side of caution and desist. Please note that some countries' laws may impose penalties for graphics, drawings, or anime that resemble child pornography, even where no children have been involved.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Clarification_of_policy_disallowing_ageplay

 

 

In many cases it is a subjective judgement call.  LL even acknowledges this.

Some people are more cautious than others when making that call.

Regardless, LL has asked us to err on the side of caution.

And dem are da rules in dis playground.

[Phil Deakins]

I believe that, here in the UK, it's illegal to have pornographic images of child cartoon/drawings characters. It's also illegal to have pornographic images of adults if they appear to be underage. Just the appearance is enough to make it illegal, regardless of their actual ages.

[Qie Niangao]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

The Title you chose for this thread seems to be wrong to me. It's the word 'discrimination' that seems to be wrong. You appear to imagine that your avatar was the subject of discimination because it looked like a child, but

I don't know anyone, in any world, who discriminates against children

. There are places where children should not be, and so they have to be moved out, but that's not discrimination. It's protecting the child. In different settings those same people would welcome children. It's just not discrimination. Not the sort that has a bad undertone, anyway.

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[Emphasis mine.] Really? There are some quite well-known (by SL standards) folks who've made it quite clear that they consider all of SL to be a place "where children should not be" which would seem as close to discrimination as makes no difference.

On the other hand, the OP's situation may just be the usual overgeneralization and paranoia -- much of which is fully justified by various RL legal witch-hunts conducted for political gain and prime-time ratings more than for any child's welfare. On this subject, I've come to suspect the accuser more than the accused -- not unlike "innocent until proven guilty," that. Not that it matters.

[Phil Deakins]

Since you say so, I'm sure there are some, Qie. I don't know any though. I've come across some who say they are "unconfortable" with child avs around but that's different, and, although I'm not one of them, I can understand it.

However, taking your post precisely as it is written, SL is not a place for children. RL children, that is. I may be mistaken but isn't the age for joining SL, and only being allowed in PG areas, 16? If that's so, then no child is allowed in SL. At 16, they are old enough to legally procreate, so I don't consider them to be children in any way other than an 'official', unrealistic, description. Same sort of thing as anyone in the UK who earns £100k or more per years is 'officially' a millionaire, but not in reality on the strngth of those earnings.

[Coby Foden]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

What puzzles me sometimes is when a small female avatar appears that's so small that, apart from one thing, it's definitely a child. But it has well-developed boobs.

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What?

 

 

 

 

[Qie Niangao]

Oh, quite so, and I realize now that I was imprecise to the point of being misleading. I should have said "child avatars" not (RL) "children" ... and if that's what you meant earlier about being in the wrong place, certainly SL isn't appropriate for RL children (and vice versa). The thread's anime subject just seemed more about avatars than about their players.

[TheWinterStorm]

Regarding the small sized adults, I suppose that it is personal preference. My avatar is currently less than 5 feet tall, (according to the SL editing window, although inworld measuring devices say closer to 5.6. which is my RL height) Thus is significantly shorter than average but I like it and would consider going shorter except for the confusion it my cause. I always portray an adult with this avi, but sometimes like to have a a more petite look but can't be bothered to purchase and fiddle with a petite mesh avatar.

 

The other reason I don't go shorter is because I'm currently spending a lot of time in historical rp type sims.

[Phil Deakins]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

Oh, quite so, and I realize now that I was imprecise to the point of being misleading. I should have said "child avatars" not (RL) "children" ... and if that's what you meant earlier about being in the wrong place, certainly SL isn't appropriate for RL children (and vice versa). The thread's anime subject just seemed more about avatars than about their players.

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I was being a bit pedantic by responding to you post as it was written - because I could 

I've only written about RL children to you, so what I said earlier about being in the wrong place was about child-looking avatars.

[Phil Deakins]

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TheWinterStorm wrote:

Regarding the small sized adults, I suppose that it is personal preference. My avatar is currently less than 5 feet tall, (according to the SL editing window, although inworld measuring devices say closer to 5.6. which is my RL height) Thus is significantly shorter than average but I like it and would consider going shorter except for the confusion it my cause. I always portray an adult with this avi, but sometimes like to have a a more petite look but can't be bothered to purchase and fiddle with a petite mesh avatar.

 

The other reason I don't go shorter is because I'm currently spending a lot of time in historical rp type sims.

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Yes, height is personal preference. The avatar I was thinking of when I wrote about a really small one, I saw in my store - and she was *really* short so that, at even a short distance, and not looking at the front, nobody would have thought her anything other than a child avatar. Most of the female child avatars that I've seen have a small swell on their chests, presumably because the female slider doesn't get rid of it altogether. But this one's swell was really swell

[Perrie Juran]

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TheWinterStorm wrote:

Regarding the small sized adults, I suppose that it is personal preference. My avatar is currently less than 5 feet tall, (according to the SL editing window, although inworld measuring devices say closer to 5.6. which is my RL height) Thus is significantly shorter than average but I like it and would consider going shorter except for the confusion it my cause. I always portray an adult with this avi, but sometimes like to have a a more petite look but can't be bothered to purchase and fiddle with a petite mesh avatar.

 

The other reason I don't go shorter is because I'm currently spending a lot of time in historical rp type sims.

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Some of this trouble, if not all of it, started way back in the beginning.

The base or center line (I'm really not sure the right word to use here) of the Avatar people were presented with was Seven Foot Tall or there about.  And there was no feet or meters listed in the edit window. Just numbers....a sliding scale from zero to one hundred.

At that time back in 2003, some people made the discovery when they held up a yard stick to the Ava (a stretched prim)  that it was kind of tall and they asked, "Why?"  The answer they got was this:

"As I recall, the max and min heights (head to toe) possible are somewhere around 2.95 and 1.25 meters, respectively. I determined those numbers emperically back in late beta.

 

The historical reason the "middle of the sliders" avatar is taller than the average human is because our last non-modifiable avatar back in pre-alpha just happened to be that tall (a guy we called "Primitar"**Only uploaded images may be used in postings**://forums-archive.secondlife.com/_imgs/smileys/wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="" />. Then we changed how the avatars looked without changing the physical representation of the avatar on the server, and their default size was scaled to match the collision model."    Philip Linden

If back then they had corrected that, then we wouldn't have all the trouble we have today with disagreements about Avatar height.  A five foot tall Ava would not looked diminutive next to the General population. 

But they didn't correct it and the SL World wound up being built on about a 7:5 scale by the SL Meter.

I'm in agreement with those who say we would have better use of resources if everything was built on a 1:1 scale.  Overall, builds like Jo Yardley's Berlin demonstrate this.  But how in a practical manner to convert the other 30,000 SIMs and Millions of residents to this is something I have no idea.

Some people want to be **bleep** about this and insist, "I'm not short, you're the one who's screwed up*."  Maybe that is so but that is the SL World we were given.  So for me, when in Berlin, I do as the Berliners and use a shorter Ava.  When out and about other places, I use a taller Ava.

 

*note:  there are some people that claim the oversizing is a conspiracy by LL to force us to buy more land, etc. because it is rather difficult at 7:5 to create a comfortable livable space on a 512sqm plot.  Personally I find that kind of hard to believe.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Most anime characters look like kids or teens, so it doesn't surprise me you were told to leave. You may find yourself told to leave/ ejected and banned even in non adult venues such as bars and nightclubs as many have a rule that your avatar has to look like an adult and some even have rules that you have to look like a regular adult human.  Many times it is the other patrons that complain and will leave if you are allowed to stay.  Some are prejudice against certain types of avi's, but others because they want as close to a RL experience as they can get and a cartoon character would not be seen in a RL venue walking around and talking.  There is nothing you can do about this as whoever owns the land sets the rules.

I do think it is not fair that smaller sized avi's are taken automatically as children as height has nothing to do with adulthood.

If you want to visit places and not have to worry about being ejected and banned, then wear an avatar dressed appropriately and suitable to the venue.  If I go to any role play sim I dress according to what roleplay is going on.  If i went to a non human sim, i'd go as the appropriate non human.  Personally I feel it is not only fun to switch up like this but also respectful to the venue owner and other avatar characters there.  There are plenty of free or low cost things available to put together any type of avatar.

The bottom line is that SL is your world - your imagination, except when you go on land owned by another resident.  Then it is their world - their imagination and you have to conform to their rules and expectations.

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

You're welcome to hang out in Dead Realm any time, we don't discriminate against any avatar, of any shape or size we consider every avatar adult as long as they behave as one.