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Dresden Ceriano

Goodbye to someone who really made a difference

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R.I. P to an amazing man.

My kids did a unity Study on him not too long ago. It warmed my heart, ever so slightly, when they saw the news of his death and were truly sad, because they really understood his impact the world over. I don't think most people these days, especially younger ones realize the impact he had.

 

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Kudos to Mandela, the most effective griefer of the 20th Century.

His enduring effect on history is the salutory reminder that one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

**********Rudi**********

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@  Rudy and Alicia: you fall for every kind of propaganda and misinformation or are you just naturally evil? If Mandela was a terrorist after he blew up some electricity poles, what then was George Washington?

 

I wrote kinda obituary for my bloggy.

And please everybody, I beg you, watch the PBS doccie.

 Rest in peace, Madiba. Amandla!!!

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

As Rudi said, "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter."

...Dres

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Orca Flotta wrote:

@  Rudy and Alicia: you fall for every kind of propaganda and misinformation or are you just naturally evil? If Mandela was a terrorist after he blew up some electricity poles, what then was George Washington?


On the contrary, Orca, you share the sanitised memories of the placatory world community.

Mandela co-founded (with the South African Communist Party) the militant Umkhonto we Sizwe, whose violent operations he endorsed with a manifesto which stated "Our men are armed and trained freedom fighters not terrorists." and which violence he justified, in the same way as it ever was "because the government had left us with no other choice". I would highlight as an example the Amanzimtoti bombing incident in 1985, when five civilians were killed - including three children. Electricity poles?

History may be written by the winners, but it may be more difficult nowadays to eliminate the truth.

My previous comments stand. I would have preferred not to have gone into detail, as I believe 27 years in prison  gave him time to meditate (as well as offering the the unintended benefit that he didn't have to live with Winnie) on his actions, and thus develop the attitude of sainthood which is presumably his destiny, as figurehead of an internal movement which was demonstrably impotent until the rest of the world came to its rescue.

**********Rudi**********

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Alicia Sautereau wrote:

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

So, you do not believe people can evolve?

 

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Amanzimtoti bombing incident in 1985

When Mandela was clubbing rocks on Robben Island and definately not part of the ANC's armed military  wing. He himself actually blew up some electricity poles with no harm done to any humans. He never killed anybody but was, quite the  contrary, strictly opposed to any violent action after some years in prison. The idea of truth & reconciliation formed in his head quite early. In fact the whole world hoped for an violent end to the apartheid fascists while Mandela in his stubbornness always insisted on negotiations. He was one of the very few who saw there is another way to end the problem than just a brutal revolution.

It's true he co-founded the Umkhonto we Sizwe. And it's true he was a sympathizing with the Communinists. But hey, what straight thinking person doesn't sympathize with communism every now and then? He was under the impression of some terrible actions by the SA security forces at that time and thought fighting is the only way. In fact most of the leadership of the ANC underwent combat training in Russia. The truth is well-known and in no way does anybody try to eliminate it.

Of course neaarly 27 years of imprisonment gave him ample opportunity to make up his mind, and change it multiple times. Does that make him a bad man? Let's not forget who put him into prison in the first place. An unbearable ultracapitalsitic fascist racist system. A system that had to  be fought. With violence if necessary. I can understand Mandela's mindset back then as well as his mindser in later years.

Of course the movement was impotent. They had no  money and were under every kind of control by various secret agencies. So operations weren't easy. And what do you mean with "the rest of the world came to its rescue."? Apart from some boycots and student protests the rest of the world did **bleep** all! It was Mandela's stance, his willpower and his presence alone which opened the hearts, heads and doors to freedom. Against his own party's agenda he always meant freedom for all, not just the blacks. Indians, coloureds and blankies, they alll suffered from the fascist regime as well.

My memories are neither sanitized nor nostalgic. I only studied the history of SA after I moved here in 2002. I grabbed every book available on the subject, particularly of the fresher history and made up my own mind. Believe it ot not.

My previous comments stand: Mandela was a great man and a great leader. Was he flawless? God, no! He was a vain, stubborn character, which is kinda the norm within born leaders. Was he a saint? No no no! At least in my eyes he wasn't. But that's not a problem since saints never get into any position to influence the world's history.

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Mandela was a great leader.

He fought when he needed to, and he sat down and forgave, making peace, when he had the chance to.

He brought a nation forward, and set an example for the world that warring races can make peace and struggle forward without needing to flip the persecution.

And perhaps the most important thing he ever did, was step down as president after only a single term - the greatest move a leader for a free land can make is to know when to step aside so that by your example future leaders know to continue peaceful sucession and a recognition of the democratic process.

 

Madela, like Washington - the critical legacy of both was ensuring that peaceful transitions of power could happen. That in turns allows for all the good they do to be carried forward in a legacy (on any other comparrision I would NOT equate Madela with Washington - but this is a tribute to Mandela, so I'll leave Washington's faults out of it. What faults Mandela may have had, he did not have when it mattered).

Leaders like Mandela are the sorts the world gets blessed with very rarely.

 

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If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

Proof or it didn't happen.


From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

And in what kind of mucked up world would we live in without him? You rather deal with the white supremacists and capatalist fascists of the old South Africa?

I guess you USAmericans are just  jelly coz so many African countries are sick and tired of your politics and rather orientate themself to the north and east. Be happy with your oilfields and polluted swamps in Nigeria and leave the other nations out of your evil games.

After Ghadaffi was killed and that money source dried out we rather deal with Russia and China directly than taking the long way round by negotiating with the middle-man USA. You guys have nothing to offer anymore.

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Orca Flotta wrote:

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

Proof or it didn't happen.

 

From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

And in what kind of mucked up world would we live in without him? You rather deal with the white supremacists and capatalist fascists of the old South Africa?

I guess you USAmericans are just  jelly
coz so many African countries are sick and tired of your politics and rather orientate themself to the north and east. Be happy with your oilfields and polluted swamps in Nigeria and leave the other nations out of your evil games.

After Ghadaffi was killed and that money source dried out we rather deal with Russia and China directly than taking the long way round by negotiating with the middle-man USA. You guys have nothing to offer anymore.

You are responding to one poster as if she represents the entire country?   Tsk.

 

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Orca Flotta wrote:

He ... was strictly opposed to any violent action after some years in prison.


An effective argument for incarceration changing people's views about violence?


Orca Flotta wrote:

 

It's true he co-founded the Umkhonto we Sizwe.

Intended from the outset to be, by Mandela's own admission, a militant, violent organisation - who killed innocent bystanders.

 

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

he was a sympathizing with the Communinists [sic]. But hey, what straight thinking person doesn't sympathize with communism every now and then?


Erm, the type of straight thinking person that isn't stupid, irrational, hyperemotional and desperate to achieve their ends by any means?


Orca Flotta wrote:

The truth is well-known and in no way does anybody try to eliminate it.


It is, you did, and you are still  trying to.

 

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

 

Of course the movement was impotent. They had no  money and were under every kind of control by various secret agencies.

Ah, conspiracy theory. Was it the same reptiles that replaced the British royal family some time ago, as David Icke claims?

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

Let's not forget who put him into prison in the first place. An unbearable ultracapitalsitic [sic] ... system. A system that had to  be fought. With violence if necessary.


Ah, now we get to the nub of it; you're an ultrasocialist then - one who believes in violence.

 

 


Orca Flotta wrote:

 

My memories are neither sanitized nor nostalgic. I only studied the history of SA after I moved here in 2002. I grabbed every book available on the subject,

Erm, these were the books made available in South Africa, I presume . . .


Orca Flotta wrote:

My previous comments stand: Mandela was a great man and a great leader.


With blood on his hands.

Which was my original point.

**********Rudi**********

 

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Orca Flotta wrote:

 

After Ghadaffi was killed and that money source dried out we rather deal with Russia and China directly than taking the long way round by negotiating with the middle-man USA. You guys have nothing to offer anymore.

That paragraph says rather more than perhaps you would want it to.

Your overt jingoistic ubersocialist paranoia renders any comments you have made, or might make, utterly risible.

**********Rudi*********

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Venus Petrov wrote:


Orca Flotta wrote:

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

Proof or it didn't happen.

 

From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

And in what kind of mucked up world would we live in without him? You rather deal with the white supremacists and capatalist fascists of the old South Africa?

I guess you USAmericans are just  jelly
coz so many African countries are sick and tired of your politics and rather orientate themself to the north and east. Be happy with your oilfields and polluted swamps in Nigeria and leave the other nations out of your evil games.

After Ghadaffi was killed and that money source dried out we rather deal with Russia and China directly than taking the long way round by negotiating with the middle-man USA. You guys have nothing to offer anymore.

You are responding to one poster as if she represents the entire country?   Tsk.

 

Ikr... I care little about what individuals think of the man and his tactics.  What he did was brave and helped change the world as it is.  Agree with him or not, no one can deny that he certainly made a difference.

...Dres

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"How dare anyone tell us that Africa cannot be redeemed, when we have 400,000,000 men and women with warm blood coursing through their veins? The power that holds Africa is not Divine."

"We are men; we have souls, we have passions, we have feelings, we have hopes, we have desires, like any other race in the world. The cry is raised all over the world today of Canada for the Canadians, of America for the Americans, of England for the English, of France for the French, of Germany for the Germans - do you think it is unreasonable that we, the Blacks of the world, should raise the cry of Africa for the Africans?"

"Point me to a weak nation and I will show you a people oppressed, abused, taken advantage of by others. Show me a weak race and I will show you a people reduced to serfdom, peonage and slavery. Show me a well organized nation, and I will show you a people and a nation respected by the world."

___



These are not the words of Mr. Mandela, but the words and writings of Marcus Garvey.  Mr. Garvey was both the spiritual and intellectual mentor of Mr. Mandela.  These are the powerful words that Mr. Mandela got to put into play.  I hold both men in the highest esteem for their courage to make a difference. 


Insofar as Mr. Mandela being on the fast-track for canonization I shake my head and sigh.  When Mr. Garvey wrote:

"If the white man has the idea of a white God, let him worship his God as he desires. If the yellow man's God is of his race let him worship his God as he sees fit. We, as Negroes, have found a new ideal. Whilst our God has no color, yet it is human to see everything through one's own spectacles, and since the white people have seen their God through white spectacles, we only now started out (late though it be) to see our God through our own spectacles. The God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. We Negroes believe in the God of Africa, the everlasting God - God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, the One God of all ages. That is the God in whom we believe, but we shall worship Him through the spectacles of Africa"

I certainly don't believe he had Haile Selassie I in mind (as I don't believe Mr. Garvey was thinking of a slave owner to be a God or leader of black men..  Mr. Mandela was more of the 'man' for that job. 

RIP Mr. Mandela.

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Orca Flotta wrote:

If difference means ordering the death of hundreds then yup, he made a difference...

Proof or it didn't happen.

 

From terrorist to politician to saint, what a f`ed up world we live in...

And in what kind of mucked up world would we live in without him? You rather deal with the white supremacists and capatalist fascists of the old South Africa?

I guess you USAmericans are just  jelly coz so many African countries are sick and tired of your politics and rather orientate themself to the north and east. Be happy with your oilfields and polluted swamps in Nigeria and leave the other nations out of your evil games.

After Ghadaffi was killed and that money source dried out we rather deal with Russia and China directly than taking the long way round by negotiating with the middle-man USA. You guys have nothing to offer anymore.

How ironic that in defending a man that fought so hard against bigots that you show yourself to be a bigot.  You know nothing about Americans if you believe that two posters represent all of us or that we all agree with everything that our goverment does. 

 

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Okay, I have to admit I relied on rather helpless argumentation here, against some forumites (probably of USAmerican background, judging by their same old argueing style) but I'm really, like really really, fed up with the always same **bleep** of sprinkling falsehoods and straight lies and plump propaganda into our eyes. That sounded like a Rep party congress. Most telling were their tries to attack my person rather than defending their own weak arguments. If I sounded like a bigot I'm most sorry. since I hate bigots. But let's not forget this thread is about Madiba's death and they turned it into a witch hunt for Orca. Sorry for letting them get on my too thin skin.

Yeah, correct, I'm a ultrasocialist. Of course, every socialist is regarded as ultra according to the American view. Next you tell me Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez and other leaders were bad guys as well ... and while at it, let's add Gandhi and Mother Teresa to the list.

Right, I let my emotions take over, so yes, I fell victim to their strategy. So, that proves Mandela was a bad guy, doesn't it. I singlehandedly ruined Madiba's reputation. :smileysad:

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