Goodbye to someone who really made a difference

Amie Kaestner · December 7, 2013

And African school bus drivers everywhere drew a collective sigh of relief.

Dillon Levenque · December 7, 2013

Nobody turned anything into a witchhunt, Orca. You were called out for your stupid assumptions about the people of the US. It's fine you didn't know that some of the most ardent socialists in history were/are Americans. That's just because you haven't learned anything about the US, Nothing particularly wrong with that, but what is wrong is you shooting off your mouth about a country you clearly know nothing about.

Second Life has done a lot to make me more familiar with cultures and lifestyles I really didn't know much about, other than what I'd read in books, because we're all here mixed together. It's a shame that didn't happen for you.

Orca Flotta · December 7, 2013

Oh, I'm quite sure I know more about American socialists than you know about European ones. That put aside if Rudy and Alicia based their whole chain of arguments on my person, and repeating the same lies about Mandela, I notice a kinda familiar strategy here. One I know from various GOP party leaders.

But you're right, I didn't learn anything new about the USA since I'm in SL. After a couple of visits to the US and my daily dose of media consumption I guess I know enough to engage into a discussion with the inhabitants of that strange country. Unfortunately I'm not able to get your mindset and my laguage skills are rather basic, which makes me a loser ... lol, loser was another term I had to learn a new definition of after talking to Americans.

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes, evil! And they were worded and spun in a way I only know from certain Americans of the unlikeable sort. I'm quite sure most Americans are decent people but as it always is, it's the most loud and radical aholes that make the greatest impression. So far Rudy and Alicia failed as representants of the USA, same as I failed as representant of ... oh what do I represent anyway? Just me i guess. Anyway, I failed.

Doesn't matter: they tried to tarnish Mandela's reputation and I couldn't let that stand. Particularly since they attacked him for all the wrong reasons.

Alicia Sautereau · December 7, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

Oh, I'm quite sure I know more about American socialists than you know about European ones. That put aside if Rudy and Alicia based their whole chain of arguments on my person, and repeating the same lies about Mandela, I notice a kinda familiar strategy here. One I know from various GOP party leaders.

But you're right, I didn't learn anything new about the USA since I'm in SL. After a couple of visits to the US and my daily dose of media consumption I guess I know enough to engage into a discussion with the inhabitants of that strange country. Unfortunately I'm not able to get your mindset and my laguage skills are rather basic, which makes me a loser ... lol, loser was another term I had to learn a new definition of after talking to Americans.

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes, evil! And they were worded and spun in a way I only know from certain Americans of the unlikeable sort. I'm quite sure most Americans are decent people but as it always is, it's the most loud and radical aholes that make the greatest impression. So far Rudy and Alicia failed as representants of the USA, same as I failed as representant of ... oh what do I represent anyway? Just me i guess. Anyway, I failed.

Doesn't matter: they tried to tarnish Mandela's reputation and I couldn't let that stand. Particularly since they attacked him for all the wrong reasons.

You sure got your facts right about everything, I am not even from america ffs and just google about mandela`s history and open a few history books...

Theresa Tennyson · December 7, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

Oh, I'm quite sure I know more about American socialists than you know about European ones. That put aside if Rudy and Alicia based their whole chain of arguments on my person, and repeating the same lies about Mandela, I notice a kinda familiar strategy here. One I know from various GOP party leaders.

But you're right, I didn't learn anything new about the USA since I'm in SL. After a couple of visits to the US and my daily dose of media consumption I guess I know enough to engage into a discussion with the inhabitants of that strange country. Unfortunately I'm not able to get your mindset and my laguage skills are rather basic, which makes me a loser ... lol, loser was another term I had to learn a new definition of after talking to Americans.

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes, evil! And they were worded and spun in a way I only know from certain Americans of the unlikeable sort. I'm quite sure most Americans are decent people but as it always is, it's the most loud and radical aholes that make the greatest impression. So far Rudy and Alicia failed as representants of the USA, same as I failed as representant of ... oh what do I represent anyway? Just me i guess. Anyway, I failed.

Doesn't matter: they tried to tarnish Mandela's reputation and I couldn't let that stand. Particularly since they attacked him for all the wrong reasons.

Rudy and Alicia fail as representants of the USA in a number of ways, probably the biggest being that neither of them ARE from the USA.

IvanBenjammin · December 7, 2013

I think its pretty appalling how this thread has been hijacked. I'm normally happy to debate economic doctrines and international politics, but not here. It's certainly not the place for personal attacks.

The man died. You don't have to like or approve of him, but surely a little respect isn't asking too much?

Tari Landar · December 7, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

Oh, I'm quite sure I know more about American socialists than you know about European ones. That put aside if Rudy and Alicia based their whole chain of arguments on my person, and repeating the same lies about Mandela, I notice a kinda familiar strategy here. One I know from various GOP party leaders.

But you're right, I didn't learn anything new about the USA since I'm in SL. After a couple of visits to the US and my daily dose of media consumption I guess I know enough to engage into a discussion with the inhabitants of that strange country. Unfortunately I'm not able to get your mindset and my laguage skills are rather basic, which makes me a loser ... lol, loser was another term I had to learn a new definition of after talking to Americans.

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes, evil! And they were worded and spun in a way I only know from certain Americans of the unlikeable sort. I'm quite sure most Americans are decent people but as it always is, it's the most loud and radical aholes that make the greatest impression. So far Rudy and Alicia failed as representants of the USA, same as I failed as representant of ... oh what do I represent anyway? Just me i guess. Anyway, I failed.

Doesn't matter: they tried to tarnish Mandela's reputation and I couldn't let that stand. Particularly since they attacked him for all the wrong reasons.

Orca, I understand your verbal hostility and why you don't agree with certain posters, but you do often lump all of the USA into things, when you get into a tit for tat match with people on the forums. Saying that you're quite sure most Americans are decent people, doesn't change the fact that you lump all of the USA together, and still are, even in this post.

One small percentage of people does not equate a country. Just as every other country in the world has it's general buttholes, so does the USA. Contrary to what you may think about the USA, many of us are pretty free thinkers. We have minds, opinions and mouths of our own. I don't agree with everything ANY government or country has done, including my own. Regardless of my heritage, or where I live now, I think for myself. I teach my children to think for themselves. I teach them to take what they read, what they learn and what they hear, with a grain of salt. I teach them to never base an entire group, on a small portion of it's membership. That applies just about everywhere too. We could all easily look back on history and say "well, such and such people from such and such country did/said/were this....so we shall just lump them all together and say they are...(insert whatever insult needed here)". But we'd be 100% wrong in doing so. Even if we felt strongly about our opinion(s), we'd still be wrong.

Perfection isn't something any human, let alone group of humans, will ever achieve, no matter how hard they try. If you let those who speak the loudest, those with opinions you dislike, speak for everyone...you are closing off your ears to things that might just give you a better understanding of people in general.

This isn't me belittling you and I hope you understand that. I'm not attacking you in the least. Because I do understand what you're saying, in part, whether or not I agree with the statements, I can understand. I can also understand that being angry with someone will often fuel a discussion/debate. That's a human characteristic and very few people can truly pull off never allowing another's opinion have that affect on them. We all do it at one point or another, perhaps maybe not on the forums, but we do all have that sort of reaction from time to time.

Please stop lumping all of one country together like that. You only seem to do it when you have somethign bad to say about them/it. Not all of us are so arrogant that we feel our country.gvernment/citizens is/are without flaw. Me, personally, I am perfectly capable of seeing the flaws, they hardly make up the majority of our history(or even present day). Just like they don't for any other country. I can't imagine judging a country based on those who speak loudest, because more often than not, I don't even agree with the ones who speak loudest. I can look back on history and if I chose to look at only the things I don't like, I'd have an awful lot of countries, people and governments that I could say an awful lot of bad things about. But I don't, because I know they don't speak for an entire nation, only themselves.

RudolphFarquhar · December 7, 2013

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Rudy and Alicia fail as representants of the USA in a number of ways, probably the biggest being that neither of them

ARE

from the USA.

Shhhh Theresa, it spoils the ******* fun to let everyone know that Orca is a ******* clueless **** who hasn't the first *******inkling of what is going on, other than to believe all the ******* propaganda delivered by the ******* world's press without acknowledging that, like his American equivalent, Martin Luther King, Mandela also had feet of clay - presumably because the ******* journalists were obeying their grandmother's injunction not to speak ill of the ******* dead.

I spoke no lies in offering an epideitic, rather than a panegyric, obituary.

I wold also point out that 2013 marked the 500th anniversary of Machiavelli's "The Prince", which I am sure influenced Mandela as much as the bible.

**********Rudi**********

RudolphFarquhar · December 7, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes,

evil

!

Wow, I suppose you'll be sticking pins into ******* dollies of us in retaliation, or maybe dancing naked with a ******* witch doctor to ward off the bad spirits. Just don't get the jujuman to turn me into a******* zombie, eh!

**********Rudi**********

RudolphFarquhar · December 7, 2013

IvanBenjammin wrote:

The man died. You don't have to like or approve of him, but surely a little respect isn't asking too much?

I have utmost respect for Mandela.

Above all, he has taught the world that all aspiring politicians should serve at least a 25 year jail sentence before being allowed to stand for office. I can't ******* wait for that to happen.

**********Rudi**********

Alicia Sautereau · December 7, 2013

IvanBenjammin wrote:

I think its pretty appalling how this thread has been hijacked. I'm normally happy to debate economic doctrines and international politics, but not here. It's certainly not the place for personal attacks.

The man died. You don't have to like or approve of him, but surely a little respect isn't asking too much?

Respect, some.

Fact remains he was a terrorist and had people killed.

Does he deserve all this world media attention who tell only part of the story? not in my opinion...

They should add his history from befor being thrown in jail to complete the picture.

Kwakkelde Kwak · December 7, 2013

Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Respect, some.

Fact remains he was a terrorist and had people killed.

Does he deserve all this world media attention who tell only part of the story? not in my opinion...

They should add his history from befor being thrown in jail to complete the picture.

You might want to elaborate a bit rather than blurt out random comments or accusations.

Classifying Mandela as terrorist is something that's very hard to swallow for one, but even harder to back up. That is unless Spartacus, the founding fathers of America, Lenin or Ataturk to name a couple were terrorists. Maybe the French revolution was a terrorist act? The Indonesians or any other former colonies trying to break free from centuries of oppression? French (or any other) resistance in WWII? That's not terrorism, that's balancing the scales. If everyone could do that the way Mandela did, we would live in a much brighter, happier world.

RIP

Venus Petrov · December 7, 2013

Alicia Sautereau wrote:

IvanBenjammin wrote:

I think its pretty appalling how this thread has been hijacked. I'm normally happy to debate economic doctrines and international politics, but not here. It's certainly not the place for personal attacks.

The man died. You don't have to like or approve of him, but surely a little respect isn't asking too much?

Respect, some.

Fact remains he was a terrorist and had people killed.

Does he deserve all this world media attention who tell only part of the story? not in my opinion...

They should add his history from befor being thrown in jail to complete the picture.

Lots of people died in South Africa. Mandela lived a complex life and when he emerged from prison he did more good for SA than anyone else did. Period. One person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter and the labels switch many times. Many leaders in Israel were once considered 'terrorists', too. Shall we bin the lot of them? Rhetorical.

Alicia Sautereau · December 7, 2013

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Respect, some.

Fact remains he was a terrorist and had people killed.

Does he deserve all this world media attention who tell only part of the story? not in my opinion...

They should add his history from befor being thrown in jail to complete the picture.

You might want to elaborate a bit rather than blurt out random comments or accusations.

Classifying Mandela as terrorist is something that's very hard to swallow for one, but even harder to back up. That is unless Spartacus, the founding fathers of America, Lenin or Ataturk to name a couple were terrorists. Maybe the French revolution was a terrorist act? The Indonesians or any other former colonies trying to break free from centuries of oppression? French (or any other) resistance in WWII? That's not terrorism, that's balancing the scales. If everyone could do that the way Mandela did, we would live in a much brighter, happier world.

RIP

I`ll just post one link and be done with it:

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/07/21794290-us-government-considered-nelson-mandela-a-terrorist-until-2008

"Until five years ago, however, the U.S. officially considered Mandela a terrorist. During the Cold War, both the State and Defense departments dubbed Mandela’s political party, the African National Congress, a terrorist group, and Mandela’s name remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list till 2008"

Not the link I wanted to post, but it sums it up in a nice header even better...

Won`t reply any further to this ignorance hail mary political bs saint crap.

RudolphFarquhar · December 7, 2013

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Spartacus, the founding fathers of America, Lenin or Ataturk to name a couple were terrorists.

Yep! According to the Romans, the British, the Tsar and the Sultanate, all of whom were the legitimate authorities until the revolutionaries (if you would prefer another nice euphemism for terrorists) succeeded in deposing them.

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

Maybe the French revolution was a terrorist act?

Of course it was; just ask all the French nobility who met Madame Guillotine. Ah, you can't because they're dead.

Kwakkelde Kwak wrote:

The Indonesians or any other former colonies trying to break free from centuries of oppression?

The Dutch who died in Indonesia would have considered their adversaries terrorists.

As I, and several others have reiterated, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Violence is not always necessary, of course - see the case of Bermuda, inter alia - but the impatient gloryhunters would prefer not to believe that.

**********Rudi**********

Czari Zenovka · December 7, 2013

Alicia Sautereau wrote:

Orca Flotta wrote:

Oh, I'm quite sure I know more about American socialists than you know about European ones. That put aside if Rudy and Alicia based their whole chain of arguments on my person, and repeating the same lies about Mandela, I notice a kinda familiar strategy here. One I know from various GOP party leaders.

But you're right, I didn't learn anything new about the USA since I'm in SL. After a couple of visits to the US and my daily dose of media consumption I guess I know enough to engage into a discussion with the inhabitants of that strange country. Unfortunately I'm not able to get your mindset and my laguage skills are rather basic, which makes me a loser ... lol, loser was another term I had to learn a new definition of after talking to Americans.

So anyway, I was shooting off my mouth about Rudy mainly and Alicia partly, because I found their posts to be very mean spirited and yes, evil! And they were worded and spun in a way I only know from certain Americans of the unlikeable sort. I'm quite sure most Americans are decent people but as it always is, it's the most loud and radical aholes that make the greatest impression. So far Rudy and Alicia failed as representants of the USA, same as I failed as representant of ... oh what do I represent anyway? Just me i guess. Anyway, I failed.

Doesn't matter: they tried to tarnish Mandela's reputation and I couldn't let that stand. Particularly since they attacked him for all the wrong reasons.

You sure got your facts right about everything, I am not even from america ffs and just google about mandela`s history and open a few history books...

I was waiting for your reaction at being called an American. *Grins*

Kwakkelde Kwak · December 7, 2013

A bit of perspective?

Here:

The Reagan administration came into office declaring that a centerpiece of its foreign policy would be a war on terror. That war on terror has also been expunged from historical consciousness, because the outcome cannot readily be incorporated into the canon: among them an estimated 1.5 million in the terrorist wars sponsored in neighboring countries by Reagan's favored ally, Apartheid South Africa, which had to defend itself from Nelson Mandela's African National Congress, one of the world's "more notorious terrorist groups," so Washington determined in 1988. In fairness, it should be added that 20 years later Congress voted to remove the ANC from the list of terrorist organizations, so that Mandela is now at last able to enter the US without obtaining a waiver from the government. The reigning doctrine is something called "American exceptionalism." It is nothing of the sort.

or maybe...

During Ronald Reagan's presidency South Africa continued to use a non-democratic system of government based on racial discrimination, known as apartheid, in which the minority of white South Africans exerted nearly complete legal control over the lives of the non-white majority of the citizens. In the early 1980s the issue had moved to the center of international attention as a result of events in the townships and outcry at the death of Stephen Biko. Reagan administration policy called for "constructive engagement" with the apartheid government of South Africa. In opposition to the condemnations issued by the US Congress and public demands for diplomatic or economic sanctions, Reagan made relatively minor criticisms of the regime, which was otherwise internationally isolated, and the US granted recognition to the government. South Africa's military was then engaged in an occupation of Namibia and proxy wars in several neighboring countries, in alliance with Savimbi's UNITA. Reagan administration officials saw the apartheid government as a key anti-communist ally.[9]

By late 1985, facing hostile votes from Congress on the issue, Reagan made an "abrupt reversal" on the issue and proposed sanctions on the South African government, including an arms embargo.[10] However, these sanctions were seen as weak by anti-Apartheid activists who were calling for Disinvestment from South Africa.[11] In 1986, Reagan vetoed the tougher sanctions of the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act, but this was overridden by a bipartisan effort in Congress. By 1990, under Reagan's successor, the new South African government of F. W. de Klerk was introducing widespread reforms, though the Reagan administration argued that this was not a result of the tougher sanctions.

or....

Ronald Reagan was angry. It was October 1986, and his veto against the Comprehensive Anti-Apartheid Act had just been overridden — and by a Republican-controlled Senate, at that.

He had appeared on TV a month earlier to warn Americans against the Anti-Apartheid Act, decrying it as "immoral" and "utterly repugnant." Congress disagreed, and one month later, it produced the two-thirds majority needed to override Reagan and pass tough new measures against South Africa's apartheid government. These measures included a ban on bank loans and new investments in South Africa, a sharp reduction of imports, and prevented most South African officials from traveling to the United States. The Act also called for the repeal of apartheid laws and the release of political prisoners like African National Congress (ANC) leader Nelson Mandela, who had spent the last 23 years in prison.

or...

As Americans honor the memory of Nelson Mandela, they must grapple with the inconvenient truth that one of their most honored recent presidents, Ronald Reagan, fiercely opposed punishing white-ruled South Africa for keeping Mandela locked up and for continuing the racist apartheid system that he challenged.

Rhetorically, Reagan did object to apartheid and did call for Mandela’s release, but Reagan viewed the struggle for racial justice in South Africa through a Cold War lens, leading him to veto a 1986 bill imposing economic sanctions on the Pretoria regime aimed at forcing Mandela’s freedom and compelling the dismantling of apartheid.

Wasn't Reagan diagnosed with Alzheimer's a year after he put Mandela on the list?

Orca Flotta · December 7, 2013

I think its pretty appalling how this thread has been hijacked. I'm normally happy to debate economic doctrines and international politics, but not here. It's certainly not the place for personal attacks.

The man died. You don't have to like or approve of him, but surely a little respect isn't asking too much?

________________________________________________________________________________________

That!

That was also why I so harshly attacked those 2 degenerates in the first place. Fot that I'm terribly sorry and because of it I'll leave Madiba and this thread alone.

Venus Petrov · December 7, 2013

Mhmm this happens alot. Stuff remains 'on the books' until someone takes steps to fix it. "Because of what was described as a "bureaucratic snafu," their names were kept on the list until 2008, 14 years after Mandela had been elected president and nine years after he had left power. He was 90 at the time" From the link you posted.

Kwakkelde Kwak · December 7, 2013

Venus Petrov wrote:

Stuff remains 'on the books' until someone takes steps to fix it.

True, but you forgot to mention this stuff should have never been in the books in the first place.

Celestiall Nightfire · December 8, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

Most telling were their tries to attack my person rather than defending their own weak arguments

. If I sounded like a bigot I'm most sorry. since I hate bigots.

Where are the attacks on your person? I just read through all the comments, and don't see that. (Also, you sure do hate a lot of people that you don't know, and have never met, based upon stereotypes. Hmm, what's the definition of bigot?)

Insinuating that fellow forum posters are evil, because you don't like thier posts, sure sounds like a personal attack to me. (Odd, how you accuse others of actions that you're doing)

Orca Flotta wrote:

________________________________________________________________________________________

That!

That was also why I so harshly attacked those 2 degenerates in the first place. Fot that I'm terribly sorry and because of it I'll leave Madiba and this thread alone.

There you go again. Personal attacks on other people. Oh, and apologizing each time you make the personal attack does not negate it. (Perhaps look up the definition of bigot and hypocrite)

Orca Flotta · December 8, 2013

Insinuating that fellow forum posters are evil, because you don't like thier posts

No, they are evil becuase their posts were pure evil and totally out of place in this thread. They attacked a nice (and dead) guy for things everyone of us would have done if we were in his place and not being the cowards we unfortunately are.

Excuse me, but I found these posts so atrocious, I just had to strike. And their responses didn't help neither since they both didn't take any more steps defending their halfwitted opinions but concentrated on me instead. Rudy by outing himself as a classical griefer and that woman (sorry, forgot her name) by just repeating the same semi-truthiness like a brainwashed chicken.

He was a terrorist. Yes, that's a given and everybody knows it. And again I challenge everyone of you to not become a terrorist if you are member of an opressed people, hardly recognized as human being by the oppressors and are denied any chance for eye-to-eye negotiations. And that was something very typical for Madiba's character: you talked with him eye-to-eye, on the same level ... or not at all. He'd rather resort to violence and go to prison before talking from a weaker or stronger position.

He killed people? No, he didn't. He bombed some electric overland lines to struck the infrastructure. No dead, no hurt.

He ordered killings? No, he was in prison, he was only allowed 1 letter every 6 months, and those letters were controlled, and heavily censored by the wardens and justice department. Inbound and outbound. Communication between the inmates was forbidden as well. Mandela lived in a time capsule for over 20 years. No chance to order any killings.

And griefer king Rudy makes a public spectacle of himself by questioning Mandela's ethics just because the man went more soft and clever over the time span of 27 years. He'd preferred Mandela leaving the prison full of blind hate and rage and start a killing spree on the white people? Jeeze, what a rotten individual that Rudy must be.

And no, I'm not sorry for calling them degenerates and evil. I stand firmly by that opinion. I'm only sorry that it was necessary to call their foulplay in this thread. I betcha every (like in EVERY) history teacher in school would've kicked 'em out of the class for neglect of socially accepatble behaviour. How they call it in the US? Detention or something? Yes, I'd sent them to detention. They both crossed the line. There isn't even anyting to discuss about.

Further I can't understand any one for showing the slightest bit of understanding for Rudy and his female sidekick. Why you do it? Because SA was a stronghold against socialism, communism and democracy and by that a good ally for the USA in Africa? And then this bushman comes along, forgets his place in society and starts some hopelessly hamfisted resistance against the system? How dare he? Let's call him and his so-called party terrorists, declare them as illegal and let's get rid of 'em. Something like that? Obviously Rudy and his girl still believe in the crap for some reason or another.

RudolphFarquhar · December 8, 2013