ToS Changes - why?

[Snugs McMasters]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I may be wrong, of course, but I'm now leaning more towards your (Maddy's) idea of things.

---

Don't do it Phil!

You lean her way and the next thing you know, your wallet is missing!

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

This is a reply to your second to last post above this one

I've arrived at a conclusion since I posted the one to which you replied. I am now of the opinion that the ideas of LL setting things up to sell SL complete with content, and LL wanting to sell or pass content to any of their other products, don't hold water. The reason being that LL would not only have to differentiate between assets that have had the ToS accepted and those that have not - difficult enough - but they'd also have to differentiate between assets that are not owned by the uploaders but are used under license, and that's totally impossible to do. I.e. the uploaders of assets that are under license do not have the legal right to grant LL all the rights in the ToS, so LL can't have the legal right to include them with a sale of SL or pass them to people using other programmes. I may be wrong, of course, but I'm now leaning more towards your idea of things.

---

I dont think they will take the items like they are displayed in sl. They will take the files. PNG and TGA for textures, DAE for meshes etc....

Games devs doesnt need items all done, they only need components..So yes, it will be easy for them to parse and take what has been upload only after the new tos.

Like you and Maddy, i at first thought it was just incompetence... now i really think there is a hiden purpose behind the new tos.

[Scooter Hollow]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

This is a reply to your second to last post above this one

I've arrived at a conclusion since I posted the one to which you replied. I am now of the opinion that the ideas of LL setting things up to sell SL complete with content, and LL wanting to sell or pass content to any of their other products, don't hold water. The reason being that LL would not only have to differentiate between assets that have had the ToS accepted and those that have not - difficult enough - but they'd also have to differentiate between assets that are not owned by the uploaders but are used under license, and that's totally impossible to do. I.e. the uploaders of assets that are under license do not have the legal right to grant LL all the rights in the ToS, so LL can't have the legal right to include them with a sale of SL or pass them to people using other programmes. I may be wrong, of course, but I'm now leaning more towards your idea of things.

---

I don't know why people keep saying it would be too difficult to figure out what content qualifies under the new TOS; it would be extremely easy. Anything uploaded after the date the new TOS took effect is theirs. A very very simple search filter to run, and scrape out all of the older content.

 

As for whether or not the content actually belonged to the uploaders, they're home free under that too. Under the TOS, the uploader assumes all responsibilities for claiming they have the rights to upload what they are. Maybe they could have an intern go through and drop all the Iron Man armors and Skyrim weapons but they're perfectly free to offer everything and wait til a content creator complains officially before taking anything down.

[Anaiya Arnold]

You might know a lot about mesh and since you say you do,  I am sure you do.  LL might know a lot about mesh,and if they say they do, who only knows if they really do?  Probably not LL.

 

Someone working at LL might know what you know, but can that be effectively communicated to the people making decisions if they are hot for some idea that requires the opposite be true? 

 

Is this insurmountable barrier is an idea that Rodvik can be made to accept if he suddenly thinks he is going to get credit for revolutionizing LL's business model, expanding its revenue stream while improving margins/return, and finally getting rid of all those pesky SL users the Lab has wanted shut of for years now (if only someone else could be made to pay their bills)?

 

Who knows?  LL is often seems so directionless and aimless that perhaps even they cannot guess what wild random antics they will pull next or which elusive rabbit they will try to chase down.  They were going to be the next facebook or something for avatars the other week (well other year but  sometimes all these antics seem to just flow into one singularity of antics happening everywhere at once).

 

Now they are Desura?  Remember the story telling software?  Me neither.  I don't think they even finished that project.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Snugs McMasters wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I may be wrong, of course, but I'm now leaning more towards your (Maddy's) idea of things.

---

Don't do it Phil!

You lean her way and the next thing you know, your wallet is missing!

---

LMAO! I can assure you that Maddy won't get my wallet I keep it down the front of my pants!

[Phil Deakins]

---

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

I dont think they will take the items like they are displayed in sl. They will take the files. PNG and TGA for textures, DAE for meshes etc....

---

But it is impossible for them to know which texture files they can legally use, because it's impossible for them to know which ones the uploader had all the rights to and which were only under license. LL has no way of knowing so they can't legally use them.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Scooter Hollow wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

This is a reply to your second to last post above this one

I've arrived at a conclusion since I posted the one to which you replied. I am now of the opinion that the ideas of LL setting things up to sell SL complete with content, and LL wanting to sell or pass content to any of their other products, don't hold water. The reason being that LL would not only have to differentiate between assets that have had the ToS accepted and those that have not - difficult enough - but they'd also have to differentiate between assets that are not owned by the uploaders but are used under license, and that's totally impossible to do. I.e. the uploaders of assets that are under license do not have the legal right to grant LL all the rights in the ToS, so LL can't have the legal right to include them with a sale of SL or pass them to people using other programmes. I may be wrong, of course, but I'm now leaning more towards your idea of things.

---

I don't know why people keep saying it would be too difficult to figure out what content qualifies under the new TOS; it would be extremely easy. Anything uploaded after the date the new TOS took effect is theirs. A very very simple search filter to run, and scrape out all of the older content.

 

As for whether or not the content actually belonged to the uploaders, they're home free under that too. Under the TOS, the uploader assumes all responsibilities for claiming they have the rights to upload what they are. Maybe they could have an intern go through and drop all the Iron Man armors and Skyrim weapons but they're perfectly free to offer everything and wait til a content creator complains officially before taking anything down.

---

LL has good reason to know that some uploaded textures are uploaded by people who only have a license to use them in certain ways. Therefore, LL can be expected to know that they can't have total rights over all uploaded textures and, in those circumstances, I feel sure that they could be held accountable if they exercised total rights over them.

[RiftRaven]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

---

RiftRaven wrote:

The most horrific Second Life feature that still causes me to cry mysef to sleep at night LOL are "Sculpties". Just about the worst offender of unoptimized content creation, created in a desperate attempt at a better "Mesh" creation system, without importing foreign geometry. 

---

A word in defense of sculpties. Well, not entirely, because I agree that they're just absurdly inefficient, from a basic 3D modelling standpoint, but SL isn't solely about 3D modelling.  In fact, to some of us, 3D models are a sort of background noise, the epiphenomena of Second Life, existing just to have a place in which to put interactive scripts. And for some of us who feel that way, the introduction of Mesh is the absolute nadir of Second Life content creation, inasmuch as Mesh violates the cardinal rule of SL objects, that any object can be transmogrified into any other object, under script control. Any hunk of Mesh, instead, is forever doomed to be nothing more than the Mesh it was originally.

Sculpties, however, are not nerfed in this way.

It didn't need to be this way, of course. It was just a disastrous design decision, and only one of many in SL's implementation history, but one that demonstrates just how far the platform has drifted from its original vision, toward the crippled gaming model. A pity.

---

I'm sorry this is of topic but I had to respond to this.

 

There are no cardinal rules, only good building practices. Practices that were established years before Second Life existed. The sculptie has its place, and its usefull, and a marvel to use I agree. But the Sculptie is the absolute Nadir of good building practices.

"I agree that they're just absurdly inefficient, from a basic 3D modelling standpoint, but SL isn't solely about 3D modelling."

Not just a basic 3D modelling standpoint but more importantly RENDERING EFFICIENCY. SL is not just about 3D modeling, that was not the point I was trying to convey. The point was RENDERING EFFICINECY.

The whole point is to build responsibly hence "good building practices" so that a burden of rendering cost is not placed on other peoples hardware, people that would come to Second Life and would find a lag free enviroment (by good building practices) and then decided they like experience, and even better decided to buy all your wonderfull products on the marketplace, and everyone is happy.

"Mesh violates the cardinal rule of SL objects, that any object can be transmogrified into any other object, under script control. Any hunk of Mesh, instead, is forever doomed to be nothing more than the Mesh it was originally."

This kind of thinking (sigh) :smileysad: ... ... ... I am still thinking right now on how this kind of thinking, has a place, in building proper 3D eviroments. Buildings, walkways, cars, fences, trees, cups... Are these objects supposed to transmogrify into other objects at a certain point. Because these are perfect objects for mesh.

"It didn't need to be this way, of course. It was just a disastrous design decision, and only one of many in SL's implementation history, but one that demonstrates just how far the platform has drifted from its original vision, toward the crippled gaming model. A pity"

Mesh was brought in to aleveiate certain building headaches. So that people wouldnt build freaking 500 prim P@&!$$!$ lol or other objects that would be considered the obominations of good building practices.

Ok Blender is a litte, phunky, and intimidating, but you can always try, Shade 3d. Shade 3d is free too, and the interface is much more welcoming. People are using it to develop for Unity. It can be used to create mesh for SL too. I know right now it seems bad, but I have faith, in the current protest, and things will change.

A few last thoughts. Just hear me out. If you take baby steps to learn how to build mesh. It becomes fun at a certain point. That will open up other doors for extra income. You don't have to leave SL thats not what I'm saying. There are other worlds, and services were your mesh making skill will be usefull.

The first store I stumbled onto in Second life was AngelRed Coutures, and have been a fan of her style, eversince and have admired her extrodinary skills as a mesh maker. Then I stumbled onto Chic Aeon, who is just the happiest, spunkiest mesh making machine! Those are just two, SL residents among the many, that I admire in Second Life.

All I ask is to not limit yourself, with the doors you choose to open when creating for SL. Your biggest obsticle is you.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

I dont think they will take the items like they are displayed in sl. They will take the files. PNG and TGA for textures, DAE for meshes etc....

---

But it is impossible for them to know which texture files they can legally use, because it's impossible for them to know which ones the uploader had all the rights to and which were only under license. LL has no way of knowing so they can't legally use them.

---

they dont care, they are covered by the new tos and by the dmca process... if something is prooved as stolen content, the dmca will take it down and the fault will be thrown on the sl resident who first uploaded that and lied saying (when s/he agreed with the tos) that s/he had enought rights on the files to give full licence to LL

[RiftRaven]

---

Anaiya Arnold wrote:

You might know a lot about mesh and since you say you do,  I am sure you do.  LL might know a lot about mesh,and if they say they do, who only knows if they really do?  Probably not LL.

 

Someone working at LL might know what you know, but can that be effectively communicated to the people making decisions if they are hot for some idea that requires the opposite be true? 

 

Is this insurmountable barrier is an idea that Rodvik can be made to accept if he suddenly thinks he is going to get credit for revolutionizing LL's business model, expanding its revenue stream while improving margins/return, and finally getting rid of all those pesky SL users the Lab has wanted shut of for years now (if only someone else could be made to pay their bills)?

 

Who knows?  LL is often seems so directionless and aimless that perhaps even they cannot guess what wild random antics they will pull next or which elusive rabbit they will try to chase down.  They were going to be the next facebook or something for avatars the other week (well other year but  sometimes all these antics seem to just flow into one singularity of antics happening everywhere at once).

 

Now they are Desura?  Remember the story telling software?  Me neither.  I don't think they even finished that project.

---

I think I see what your saying.  That if it dosent't benefit the lab then they won't expedite it, won't care to listen and wont't, implement it. Specialy when they have bigger fish to fry. A perfect example is the Parametric Deformer. I have two theories, and aren't claiming any of these to be true. And I hope the Powers that be have mercy on my post.

But the first is 3D engines are tricky and have their quirks, and implimenting it, might actually cause more harm than, good. Hence lag other unexpected issues, with animations.

And the second is it has no benefit to the Lab. Implementing the Deformer would cause people to stop uploading multiple meshes, because one size would fit all. Less mesh uploads, less charges. 

What did the introduction of mesh introduce? An abundace of Mesh uploads. More charges.

What did the introduction of Materials introduce? An abundace of texture uploads. More charges.

It is benifiting us... right?

 

 

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

if you sign a contract stating i have full permission to shoot you in the face with a large caliber gun and i do, I will still go to jail for murder.

You can not make a contract that causes one party to break the law, or to allow laws to be broken. Which the new ToS does. 'I' have permission to upload and sell the mesh i use. LL does not.

There is no way to agree to the ToS without giving them full powers over the items we upload. That breaks the law.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

if you sign a contract stating i have full permission to shoot you in the face with a large caliber gun and i do, I will still go to jail for murder.

You can not make a contract that causes one party to break the law, or to allow laws to be broken. Which the new ToS does. 'I' have permission to upload and sell the mesh i use. LL does not.

There is no way to agree to the ToS without giving them full powers over the items we upload. That breaks the law.

---

You are talking about different kinds of 'rights' here.

The LAW does not give you the right to hire someone to commit Murder, whether it be your own or someone else's murder: It makes it a crime.

On the other hand, the LAW does not inhibit you from signing your property rights over to any one in whole or in part, nor does it stop me from receiving your lawfully held property from you.

Right now, right here on this Forum, you could enter into a legally binding contract turning over all your property to me in full, and once you do that, as the saying goes, 'all your base belongs to us.'

Once you agreed to the TOS you assigned non-exclusive rights to LL to use your creations/uploads, the emphasis here being on the word "your."

[Czari Zenovka]

Tagging onto Perrie's post but it is to the thread...

Just got this notice in the Content Creators Group:

Bryn Oh, long an avid and powerful supporter of the arts, resigns her role with the LEA (Linden Endowment for the Arts) in response to the August 2013 Terms of Service.

 

[Teagan Tobias]

So the question is, ToS Changes – why? Well just to put another option out there... I have always thought (and said) that SL is just to expensive. I firmly believe the cost of items is the number one thing that makes new residents Look, Laugh, Leave. If the new ToS gets rid of some or most of the more expensive “Creators”, then LL has a lot better chance of building SL to a much larger place to live and play. I still log on and still see new content offered (for less money), and have not seen any big drop in the number of people on-line, the only people saying they are leaving are some of the creators. Could be the plan is working.

You asked why, just another thought. But what I said in Message 2 of this thread is still what I would put my money on. And I was not trying to say they are thinking about closing, just looking ahead, you know, CYA before its to late.

[Qie Niangao]

---

RiftRaven wrote:

All I ask is to not limit yourself, with the doors you choose to open when creating for SL. Your biggest obsticle is you.

---

I have to ask that you do the same. Everything of which you speak is but a tiny sliver of the original SL vision.

Objects, however and wherever they're made, are just the backdrop, the stage set of SL.

It's nice to be able to make convincing and pretty sets, and it's best when the sets don't come crashing down around the actors, but don't confuse the stage manager role with that of director.

The problem with Mesh -- or, anyway, my main problem with it -- is not that it's only created out-world (although I do think that's a very serious problem for LL's business), but rather that the resulting Mesh objects are so limited in interactivity compared to every other build type.

I know perfectly well how they got this way. Blinded by confirmation bias, the folks responsible will never learn what they did wrong. But as a direct result, this Second Life will never realize its potential.

[Storm Clarence]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Bryn Oh, long an avid and powerful supporter of the arts, resigns her role with the LEA (Linden Endowment for the Arts) in response to the August 2013 Terms of Service.

 

---

Someone will fill this role post-haste.  If it is not already filled. 

[Phil Deakins]

---

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

I dont think they will take the items like they are displayed in sl. They will take the files. PNG and TGA for textures, DAE for meshes etc....

---

But it is impossible for them to know which texture files they can legally use, because it's impossible for them to know which ones the uploader had all the rights to and which were only under license. LL has no way of knowing so they can't legally use them.

---

they dont care, they are covered by the new tos and by the dmca process... if something is prooved as stolen content, the dmca will take it down and the fault will be thrown on the sl resident who first uploaded that and lied saying (when s/he agreed with the tos) that s/he had enought rights on the files to give full licence to LL

---

First: No ToS trumps the law. If LL is caught breaking the law, their ToS can't save them.

Second: LL can be reasonably expected to know that licensed textures are uploaded into SL and that those who upload them don't have all the rights to them. The ToS does not prohibit the uploading of textures that are not fully owned by the user. Therefore, LL can be reasonably expected to know that they cannot have all the rights they claim in the ToS over every uploaded texture. That being the case, it's my opinion that LL would not have a legal leg to stand on if they were challenged in court for misusing a licensed texture.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Tagging onto Perrie's post but it is to the thread...

Just got this notice in the Content Creators Group:

Bryn Oh, long an avid and powerful supporter of the arts, resigns her role with the LEA (Linden Endowment for the Arts) in response to the August 2013 Terms of Service.

 

---

Unfortunately, Bryn Oh's action, and the downing tools of some creators, won't be noticed by the LL population, and everything will continue in SL as before.

I seriously dislike the new ToS, and I'd absolutely hate it if I were an artist who uploaded my work, or a texture or mesh designer, etc., but, on the whole, the actions of a few won't make a scrap of difference to anything, imo. If, and it's a *very* big if, LL became plagued with objections, petitions, etc., etc., then they may rewrite the ToS, but, even then, they wouldn't have to rewrite it because the vast majority of users will stay, the vast majority of creators will continue creating and selling, some artists and mesh designers will probably stop uploading their stuff, most of those who buy licenses for textures and meshes will probably stop doing that, but, in the overall view of things, nothing significant will change and SL will continue as normal, in my opinion.

[Trinity Yazimoto]

Well Phil, the new tos state clearly that you must have enough rights on whatever you upload for give them full licence. This of course exclude all creative commons licences and also, textures licenced by other websites. This is precisely why a big plateform like CG textures now forbide to upload anything that comes from their website in SL.  The licence they give to you is not enough to give full licence to LL. Another website from where ppl use to download meshes has now the same policy.

Those 2 bigs plateform have contacted LL. They didnt had a clear answer, at least not one enough clear for canceling their new policy.

My understanding of the new TOS, but i may be wrong, (you know english is not my native language and when its about to read such kind of legal document, its a big braintease for me), is that the full licence that LL ask to us to give to them can only be given by someone owning full rights (not licence, but rights) i mean you have to be the owner of the copyrights, or must have been granted full rights  by the real owners.

They of course dont say explicitely that we have to own totally what we upload, but what they say its same. if they ask you to give them a full licence and if you cant bec you dont have enough rights on the item, then it means you can t give them this licence, so you cant upload. That's just the logical itself... now indeed, we know already that there is no logical in LL management, and im now wondering even if they know a bit of grammar or of language ...

[RiftRaven]

"I have to ask that you do the same. Everything of which you speak is but a tiny sliver of the original SL vision."

With all due respect it is not, the rules for good building practices existed long before, Second Life, or Linden Lab.

Its even on Linden Labs Wiki page for good building practices.

I have spent, going on 9 years learning how to properly build 3D models, its so far from limiting myself it's not even funny. 

Are you saying I'm limiting myself by not considering using sculpties to build in SL?

Why would I use a pen or a pencil to paint the monalisa when I have tought myself how to use the finest oil pastels for the last eight years.

"Objects, however and wherever they're made, are just the backdrop, the stage set of SL."

Somehow the point keeps getting missed, that whatever, or how special Second Life is, it still needs to run on modern computer hardware, and not everyone can afford a fast computer. To make things worse, less and less people are using computers and now are moving to mobile devices, phones & tablets with less capable hardware. So again good building practices are even more important today.

RENDERING EFFICIENCY is the name of the game. Again I should make this point.

I am not saying do not use sculpties, I'm only saying do not abuse them. 

"It's nice to be able to make convincing and pretty sets, and it's best when the sets don't come crashing down around the actors, but don't confuse the stage manager role with that of director."

I'm not confusing either, I am being an advisor in proper building practice, coming from 8 years experience. I'm minfull of how diverse the hardware of SL userbase is, and the burden that bad building pratices places on them. 

 "The problem with Mesh"

There has not been a problem with mesh not since the dawn of time when dinosours first started texting and sexting eachother with tablets made of bedrock, and not now. There is no problem with mesh. Finito, Done. 

"or, anyway, my main problem with it."

There does seem to be a global misunderstanding, of mesh. My theory is SL residents, let their romanticised notions of what Second Life is blind them of how valuable mesh is.

"My main problem with it -- is not that it's only created out-world (although I do think that's a very serious problem for LL's business), but rather that the resulting."

It is not a serious problem for LL at all because it is a constant source of upload charges.

Since the dawn of time again yes "dinosaurs" have been creating 3D models out-world and importing them into a 3D Rendering Engines. 

The way LL implemented objects that are convinient to build with, came with a horrible cost in rendering efficiency.

"Mesh objects are so limited in interactivity compared to every other build type."

Mesh is the "Holy grail" of build types. The most effective at rendering efficiency. Its not about interactivity with "Mesh" its about rendering efficiency. 

Rendering efficiency has been the name of the game since the dawn of time, when yes "dinosours" got toghether and said "Hey wanna play a game?" "Yeah, sure! What's it called!", "Rendering efficiency!",  "Awesome!!!" lol.

Again I make this point, how much interactivity do you really need with objects that are best suited for mesh >>>> Buildings, walkways, cars, fences, trees, cups.

"Blinded by confirmation bias, the folks responsible will never learn what they did wrong."

It's a bit ironic you mention this, but I do agree with you there.

"But as a direct result, this Second Life will never realize its potential."

Second life or any other virtual world will never be limited by "Mesh" or a build type, but only by the "USERS" reluctance in their open mindedness, progress, and acceptance of sound, and established advice.

So at this point, I'm wondering if I'm suited as a teacher at all, judging by my frustration as a Makeshift substitute "Mesh" teacher  lol. 

Qie Niangao, you are a very passionate person, and you seem to have an admirable love towards Second Life, I respect that. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think Second Life was pretty special to. Every technical ivovation we see today came from passionate people. But please understand that my sound advice was well established long before Second Life, and if its not put into practice, Second Life will continue to lag, and SL residents will experience slow rendering sessions.

 

[Scooter Hollow]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

 The ToS does not prohibit the uploading of textures that are not fully owned by the user.

---

Incorrect. Mostly. You don't need to neccesarily own the texture, but you do need to have full rights to the texture, including selling it, transferring it, all of that. So basically it has to be yours, public domain, or entirely given to you by someone else.

 

 

It's just like Youtube. You can't say that Youtube would never work because they have to know people would upload videos they don't have the rights to. They let you upload whatever you want, and then, if they get a complaint, it goes away.

 

 

Edit: To throw in my two cents, mesh is one of the only interesting things SL has done in years, and it's the probably the only thing keeping SL from sliding over the line into obsolesence imo. That they haven't even had materials until now is also pretty bad.

 

[Qie Niangao]

---

RiftRaven wrote:

I have spent, going on 9 years learning how to properly build 3D models, its so far from limiting myself it's not even funny. 

Are you saying I'm limiting myself by not considering using sculpties to build in SL?

Why would I use a pen or a pencil to paint the monalisa when I have tought myself how to use the finest oil pastels for the last eight years.

---

I suppose if I invested nine years learning to model I too might think it important. 

And it's a good thing to know how to do, and it does affect how people experience a virtual world, but built objects of all types are not even the most important form of user generated content in Second Life, and all in-world content combined is not all that matters to the platform's success.

It's fine to focus on building. Lots of folks do. But to appreciate what has kept Second Life going for a decade, the blinkers need to come off.

Once building is seen as just one corner of the picture, it's clear why it's such a disaster that Mesh object instances cannot change into other objects (Mesh or otherwise). In any reasonably interactive environment, "objects that are best suited for mesh"-- such as cars, in particular -- should be able to change into instances of other such objects rather than being rezzed from scratch. That's only part of what's gone wrong with Mesh, but it's a particularly stark error. 

(I don't want to focus on it in this thread, but it is a problem that most SL object creation is now done outside the platform itself. "It is not a serious problem for LL at all because it is a constant source of upload charges." Try converting the upload fees to seconds of Bay Area developer salary. Then try the same calculation with tier for land that would have been used for in-world building. And that's saying nothing of the social impact of out-world-only building, which is really the effect that concerns me. That is to say, again, it's not all about the content; it is all about the experience--some of which is interacting with the content, and some of which used to be creating the content... and, of course, most of which is an absurdly compute-intensive chat room.)

[RiftRaven]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

I suppose if I invested nine years learning to model I too might think it important. 

---

I give up. :smileysad:

Qie Niangao, thank you for being so calm in your responses. Good luck. :smileyhappy:

[Czari Zenovka]

---

Qie Niangao wrote:

 

That is to say, again, it's not all about the content; it

is

all about the experience--some of which is interacting with the content, and some of which

used to be creating

the content... and, of course,

most

of which is an absurdly compute-intensive chat room.

---

This is something that often gets missed in these types of discussions and I appreciate you bringing this point out.  As humans and SL residents we can sometimes get into our own little niches and think that's the entire SL-world.  For example, when I first began SL I worked in a club, met my partner at the club, then proceeded to go to clubs as our primary activity.  We loved exploring so we did many other things but I met people in 2007 at our club that are still in SL and their main reason for logging in is to go clubbing. 

Likewise I have a friend whose main activity in SL is planning/participating in RFL (6 months planning/6 month of activities leading up to the walk).  The list could go on and on - people who never leave furry, Gorean, vampire sims, etc.  The forums are generally populated with those who are a bit more informed about SL as a whole and probably a skewed number of content creators, merchants, artists, etc. than in the SL population as a whole.

We get all fired up about something, and in this case I believe very legitimately so, and can forget that there are scores of people in SL who 1) could care less what the TOS says, just click the box so they can get into SL for their activity and 2) as long as they can do their activity (clubbing, rping, whatever) and buy the items to make their avatars look as they wish and/or have a place to call their own ie. some land, a house, and furnishings, they are perfectly happy.  They may be thrilled that their land prim count/Li is lower now by replacing some items with mesh, but they could care less how mesh is made.

I read a blog awhile back that is by a woman who began blogging her daily life in SL from the very beginning.  I found her blog from some search term that led me to a more recent post where she talked about she and a group of friends going to an old, established nightclub; they went back as a bit of nostalgia since they hadn't been there in years.  What caught my attention is the woman was, in essence, ridiculing the "awful" (ie. not mesh) hair, the "old-fashioned" flexi gowns, and skins that were not the "latest and greatest."  She said something like, "I am used to being with people that all look great and have fashion sense."  (She also writes a fashion blog.)

The telling line was the last...it was (paraphrased) As my friends and I sat and watched all the avatars dancing in their "spaghetti-looking" prim hair and gowns from 3 years ago, I began wondering who was actually really having fun.

I will venture to say that a majority of SL residents could care less about things we hash out on the forums to the nth degree - they are having fun.

Edit: Typo

Edit: Typo...again

 

[Perrie Juran]

 

Forgive me Qie for tagging your post but this is a hot button topic for me also.

I have high regard and respect for some of the Mesh content providers.  Some of their work is incredible.

But what are they really doing to contribute to the InWorld experience?

Who has come forward to replace Greenies?  Who has come forward to give us another Nemo?  (All done with PRIMs BTW.  I do not think there were any sculpties in Nemo).  How about the recently closed Alpha & Omega Points?

Clubs anchored shopping Malls.  It gave us places to go to enjoy SL.

They want us to embrace MESH?  Then let them show us a MESH experience beyond anything we've seen before in SL.

The old way gave us a simbiotic relationship with the Content Providers.  This new way is basically one sided now.