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Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "SL," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our Trademark Guidelines and Second Life Brand Center.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

ahahhahha this time, Drake, you are funny ! How many groups have "SL" in their name ? Tons. Do this mean they are officially dubed by LL ? NO.. this just mean their activities are located within SL plateform. no more. Would they have called their group "LL Bar Association" now there will be a pb and i would have agreed with you.. But i know sooooooo many groups with SL inside (UCCSL the first) , and this never meant that they were offcially mandated by LL lol... 

Read the ToS again..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "SL," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and
.

now, with all the friendship i have for you Drake, I really dont understand why you insist so much trying to discourage ppl who think their creations worth to fight aggainst these TOS. 

I'm not discouraging anyone or anything.. Do what ever the hell you want, i'm just a stupid troll. I must be a dummy because i keep putting things on the MP.

Its not your choice. We have already understood this pretty well, and as you can see, none of us have tried to stalk you for you change your mind about this and join the fight. To each their own. It's your choice and i respect this, like, i think everyone else here. 

No, i just get attacked for every post i make, when all that is seen is part of it. People seem to read what they think they read, rather than the truth. Wrong, if my choice was respected the insults wouldn't be tossed around.

but on your side, you dont stop to come and try to discourage those ones who made a different choice than yours, saying it doesnt worth, saying it wont be a problem bec tos are illegal and wont stand in a court, saying whatever you find to drain our morale.... i still cant understand your real purpose, Drake... In France we call ppl like this the "yellow", i hope you are not one of those ones.. Really... 

Right, and i am the only person that says the ToS wont hold up in court and not to worry, right? No, but i am the only one that gets insulted over it. If people can't discuss different viewpoints of a confusing document, perhaps they should stay out of the discussion.

You made a different choice than us, its ok, no problem, its your freedom, but stop trying to discourage those ones who think different than you.

You used to complain about the cliques on the forums Trin, you seem to have joined one.

 

 

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "
SL
," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and
.

I am well aware of those guidlines.

But notice carefully that they are GUIDELINES.

Do you understand that you can not 'carte blanche' trademark a name?  While I could not use the name McDonald's to open up a burger stand, there would be nothing McDonald's could do to stop me from opening "McDonald's Hardware Store."

 

 

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Qarl weighs in on the TOS changes, deletes his sim, leaves SL.

 

http://www.qarl.com/qLab/?p=89

 

What resonated with me is that what we needed from the beginning was democracy.  I would not go that far -- LL is a business  --  but I often think that what we have is more like Somalia, with no real govt other than by whichever gang is strongest.

Because it's a Virtual WORLD.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

ahahhahha this time, Drake, you are funny ! How many groups have "SL" in their name ? Tons. Do this mean they are officially dubed by LL ? NO.. this just mean their activities are located within SL plateform. no more. Would they have called their group "LL Bar Association" now there will be a pb and i would have agreed with you.. But i know sooooooo many groups with SL inside (UCCSL the first) , and this never meant that they were offcially mandated by LL lol... 

Read the ToS again..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "SL," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and
.

now, with all the friendship i have for you Drake, I really dont understand why you insist so much trying to discourage ppl who think their creations worth to fight aggainst these TOS. 

I'm not discouraging anyone or anything.. Do what ever the hell you want, i'm just a stupid troll. I must be a dummy because i keep putting things on the MP.

Its not your choice. We have already understood this pretty well, and as you can see, none of us have tried to stalk you for you change your mind about this and join the fight. To each their own. It's your choice and i respect this, like, i think everyone else here. 

No, i just get attacked for every post i make, when all that is seen is part of it. People seem to read what they think they read, rather than the truth. Wrong, if my choice was respected the insults wouldn't be tossed around.

but on your side, you dont stop to come and try to discourage those ones who made a different choice than yours, saying it doesnt worth, saying it wont be a problem bec tos are illegal and wont stand in a court, saying whatever you find to drain our morale.... i still cant understand your real purpose, Drake... In France we call ppl like this the "yellow", i hope you are not one of those ones.. Really... 

Right, and i am the only person that says the ToS wont hold up in court and not to worry, right? No, but i am the only one that gets insulted over it. If people can't discuss different viewpoints of a confusing document, perhaps they should stay out of the discussion.

You made a different choice than us, its ok, no problem, its your freedom, but stop trying to discourage those ones who think different than you.

You used to complain about the cliques on the forums Trin, you seem to have joined one.

 

 

i will forget your last line because its you, Drake. 

but you said smth that maybe is a clue to understand why you feel the urge to discourage the ppl who want to organize themselves for fighting agains the TOS

you said : " I must be a dummy because i keep putting things on the MP." 

there is no dummy or not dummy bec puting things on the MP.. This is what you havent understood and why you feel so not at ease with all this fight... 

we never asked to stop anything. And i m pretty sure you will find a good proportion in the UCCSL group of ppl who keep creating. Its a personal choice. Noone has right to judge. After all, who takes the risk ? not the group, not Toy, not Kylie, not me... its to each person to decide what they want to do about their creations. NOONE  can and will ask anything about this. 

That has been said really well weeks ago by Chic in the same thread. Some dont feel at ease to create with the new TOS, some think that even not at ease, they have to go on creating.

myself, i had to keep creating some new outfits for events i have applyed for weeks ago before all this start. And yes, i kept creating for those commintments.  Bec these persons who organize these events are not guilty for the TOS. When ive been done with that, i stoped everything then.

I also still have my shop in the mp and my one inworld... im just not planing new outfits there except the one i did for the fairs for now.  

i had plans for renewing my artgallery in october. I wont.. i wont upload my artwork for sure. But instead, im going to display my new artworks on media on a prim.

But hey ! i never exhorted anyone to do same, i just advice to ppl to join the group bec i think unity is always more powerfull than to keep alone. And yes, i choosed to join this group (UCCSL), call it a clique if you like, because i think its a cause that worth i fight for ... Because in my whole life i never used to shut up when i thought something was unfair, whatever it was a law or not... and as i just said, i choosed to do it within organization bec for me, its the rigth way to do. And yes, ive choosed to stop creating now and for now... bec i think the cause worth a lil sacrifice if its for making LL change this TOS. You ll have to respect this, like i respect your choice to keep creating .... find where i said you are wrong to keep creating Drake ! show me where ! While on your side you told that ppl like me where only in this group for our own joy and bec we have nothing more to do... You put a judgment on ppl like me.

I never insulted you Drake. 

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Qarl Fizz leaves SL because of the TOS too  : 
 

/me hangs head in resignation ..

This from a man that has not only thrown himself and his (rather phenomenal) skills AND his work product against the walls of Linden Lab. He gave so much, all without asking for anything in return other than fair treatment and respect.

And now another camel lay broken in the desert, all for the specious benefit of those supposedly in business to increase their profit and provide reasonable facility to ensure relatively trouble-free operation.

I am blown away by this one statement:

                    "shame on you LL. shame on you. shame on you. shame on you."

Were it not for my unyielding devotion to those people who have paid for my products to work, and expect that I will continue to uphold my end of the agreement ... I would take Qarl's sentiment to the same conclusion as he. I would:

  • Delete my stores, both in-world and on Marketplace
  • Remove all Vendors and sales locations
  • Shut down the web servers that talk to functional objects in Second Life
  • Delete my Avatar accounts
  • Write off the pittance in L$ I have managed to save up over the past two months.

I wish I could know that such strong statements and actions from a former LL employee would have some level of impact on the thinking and behavior of Rodvik and the BoD ...

But in all honesty? I think they'll just let this one go past without affecting them in the least.

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Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 


 

 

you said :
"
 I must be a dummy because i keep putting things on the MP."
 

I never insulted you Drake. 

Drake was referring to something that I said.

However, I don't want this to turn into a thread jack.

I have answered his 'gripes' about what I said in the threads where they occurred.

I can only guess that he never bothered to take the time to read them.

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


Trinity Yazimoto wrote:

Qarl Fizz leaves SL because of the TOS too  : 
 

/me hangs head in resignation ..

This from a man that has not only thrown himself and his (rather phenomenal) skills AND his work product against the walls of Linden Lab. He gave so much, all without asking for anything in return other than fair treatment and respect.

And now another camel lay broken in the desert, all for the specious benefit of those supposedly in business to increase their profit and provide reasonable facility to ensure relatively trouble-free operation.

I am blown away by this one statement:

                    "
shame on you LL. shame on you. shame on you. shame on you.
"

Were it not for my unyielding devotion to those people who have paid for my products to work, and expect that I will continue to uphold my end of the agreement ... I would take Qarl's sentiment to the same conclusion as he. I would:
  • Delete my stores, both in-world and on Marketplace
  • Remove all Vendors and sales locations
  • Shut down the web servers that talk to functional objects in Second Life
  • Delete my Avatar accounts
  • Write off the pittance in L$ I have managed to save up over the past two months.

I wish I could know that such strong statements and actions from a former LL employee would have some level of impact on the thinking and behavior of Rodvik and the BoD ...

But in all honesty? I think they'll just let this one go past without affecting them in the least.

i understand you Darrius, after reading this, it was like i had recieved a hit from a hammer on my head too..

and even more after i had to read new Wagner James's crap post today, stating TOS have zero impact on merchants and creators in SL. See... zero impact ? after Empyreal Dreams leaving bec of the TOS and going to opensim, and 2 other artits i know leaving and deleting everything, now Qarl... but hey, that's nothing indeed....

nothing ? its just a beguining.... 

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WOW...   Now QARL has left the SecondLife building !!!  WOW...

And Rodvik sits at his desk ... like Caesar fiddling while his SecondLife Rome continues to burn.....

I would never have thought that of all the CEOs that have come, shown their incompetence, destroyed a part of SL, and left, that Rodvik would be one of the most damaging to SecondLife. 

I lost respect for him a while ago when he started his campaign to isolate the LL Corp from the SecondLife customers, residents, creators, and throngs of those that wanted to help LL make SecondLife the best virtual world on the Internet.  The posterchild moment from this Rodvik strategy was the Gagging of the Resident JIRA.  Even LL Staff quietly told me that they were completely not in agreement with this strategy - and for obvious reasons - but Rodvik rammed his strategy into place with no respect to the damage this would and has done.

But now with Rodvik's utterly disrespectful draconian hi-jacking of our IP rights in the TOS... and as he quietly stand by this horrid business strategy mistake watching the significant and growing retaliation / response from one after another of SeocndLife's biggest supporters / Residents abandoning, stepping away, protecting, isolating themselves from LL's TOS....

Rodvik's credibility as a competent CEO of LL has to really be questioned.  Its becoming quite clear what the answer is for the customer base of SL but when will the LL Board notice the damage that he is doing to the cash cow flagship that makes LL what it currently is?

Not that it looked like LL had any serious intention to execute on the MUCH DESIRED MEHS DEFORMER from Qarl.... but now it looks like the Deformer is a thing of the past.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

Not that it looked like LL had any serious intention to execute on the MUCH DESIRED MEHS DEFORMER from Qarl.... but now it looks like the Deformer is a thing of the past.

Well, even though Qarl and those who provided the financial backing for this project had intended to just give it to LL, under the new ToS they can introduce it and claim, "It's mine, mine, mine, mine, mine.  All Mine!"

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I'm not sure if that started out as a real dream or a pitch. Qarl and employees at the time got the same pitch we did about a world where the users have a say in shaping it, the company was doing it for us, our content our world, blah.

Employees got their own version of the pitch ... everyone works on what they want, the love machine to give bonuses to each other by putting bonuses into a pool instead of management doling it out, etc.

On the other hand, you had board members that were already into monetizing others work (open source) and then the fated Mitch Kapor SLBB speech where they basically threw all existing users under the bus and said that the early adopters were just fringe fanatics and that SL was grooming for a better grade of "residents".

Either way, once the bubble on their little schtik was popped, it became clear that they were all about increasingly taking more and more.

It's too bad, Qarl hung on for years after getting canned, believing in the dream.

It's fine, we're older and wiser and someone can still build what we thought we were buying into. In the meantime, this one can be held accountable, certainly.

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Yup... I guess the SL TOS officially being able to claim full rights to Qarl's Deformer is the last backhanded parting gift that LL will give to Qarl has we all lose another amazing talent that helped made the SecondLife experience what it is.

We should open up an inworld betting board on who will be the next major creator, artist, merchant, organization, supporter, developer of SecondLife to call it quits with SecondLife because of Rodvik's IP Rights H-Jacking TOS.

ooops.... Gambling is not allowed on the grid (....well not officially allowed by LL - its just rampant all over the grid with entire sims dedicated to gambling as LL closes their eyes to that non-allowed activity and collects the extra linden exchange revenue that feeds it)

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "
SL
," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and

I am well aware of those guidlines.

But notice carefully that they are GUIDELINES.

Do you understand that you can not 'carte blanche' trademark a name?  While I could not use the name McDonald's to open up a burger stand, there would be nothing McDonald's could do to stop me from opening "McDonald's Hardware Store."

 

 

If you bothered to read those "guidelines" they seem to say they have done just that. Here is a list of their Trademarks. And HERE is where they list how you can use their trademarks. Section 5 would be the relevant part.

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Jeez. LL doesn't have and isn't going to have an official resource as a "bar association". The current use is within the guidelines as the group and in-world name.

The actual entity name is Virtual Intellectual Property Organization.

The group was started before the trademark rules, which have never been enforced to date.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "
SL
," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and

I am well aware of those guidlines.

But notice carefully that they are GUIDELINES.

Do you understand that you can not 'carte blanche' trademark a name?  While I could not use the name McDonald's to open up a burger stand, there would be nothing McDonald's could do to stop me from opening "McDonald's Hardware Store."

 

 

If you bothered to read those "guidelines" they seem to say they have done just that. Here is a list of their
. And
is where they list how you can use their trademarks. Section 5 would be the relevant part.

And once again, ALL those sections are under the heading: 

Guidelines for Using SL™ or inSL™    [LL's bolding, not mine].

It is guidance.  Those give you good examples of what THEY think is acceptable.

However, look at Section 2:

This is OK:    [LL's bolding, not mine].

Dell inSL

SL Budget Shopping Guide

Chic Clothing Boutique inSL

SL Architectural Design Services Inc.

SL Chinese Residents Association

 

Again the final decider in any use would be a Court.  For instance, LL currently has a lawsuit against someone over the use as their business name "SLART." 

But considering the above "This is OK" list, do you think "SL Bar Association" might just be OK?

 

 

eta:wierd typo

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "
SL
," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and

I am well aware of those guidlines.

But notice carefully that they are GUIDELINES.

Do you understand that you can not 'carte blanche' trademark a name?  While I could not use the name McDonald's to open up a burger stand, there would be nothing McDonald's could do to stop me from opening "McDonald's Hardware Store."

 

 

If you bothered to read those "guidelines" they seem to say they have done just that. Here is a list of their
. And
is where they list how you can use their trademarks. Section 5 would be the relevant part.

And once again, ALL those sections are under the heading: 

Guidelines for Using SL™ or inSL™   
[LL's bolding, not mine].

It is guidance.  Those give you good examples of what THEY think is acceptable.

However, look at Section 2:

This is OK:  
  [LL's bolding, not mine].

Dell inSL

SL Budget Shopping Guide

Chic Clothing Boutique inSL

SL Architectural Design Services Inc.

SL Chinese Residents Association

 

Again the final decider in any use would be a Court.  For instance, LL currently has a lawsuit against someone over the use as their business name "SLART." 

But considering the above "This is OK" list, do you think "SL Bar Association" might just be OK?

 

 

eta:wierd typo

 

Youkeep saying guidelines as if we don't have to follow them anyway. But no, i do not think SL Bar Association would be ok. Why? Because they also list this..

This is NOT OK:

SL Virtual World Platform

SL Teen Grid

Virtual Currency Exchange inSL

SL Land Auctions

SL Avatar Skin

SL Avatar Clothing

SL Source Code

SL Viewer Software

SL Scripting Language Guide

SL Architecture Working Group

Inventory Folder inSL

Image Upload Tool inSL

World Map inSL

Permissions System inSL

SL Resident Newsletter

SL Community Forums

SL Support Portal

SL Knowledge Base

So to be on the safe side i would not use SL in any group or domain name, just like section 2.3 is confusing so is the trademark section. Which you agreed to when you agreed to the ToS.

"By using the Service, you agree to and accept these Terms of Service, including all policies and terms linked to or otherwise referenced herein. If you do not so agree, you should decline this Agreement, in which case you are prohibited from accessing or using the Service."

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


Perrie Juran wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Why did I post that? Because they are from a group called SL Bar Association. Which some people would think would be LL lawyers. I wonder if they have approval from LL to use SL in their name? I would hope they do
as they are lawyers and that would be illegal.

I wasn't aware that you were an Attorney able to make such a pronouncement.

Since everyone has read the ToS multiple times over, perhaps you missed this part..

You understand and agree that without a written license agreement with Linden Lab, we do not authorize you to make any use of the Linden Marks, including but not limited to “LINDEN,” or “LINDEN LAB”. Use of the Linden Marks in whole or in part, including without limitation "Second Life," "
SL
," "Linden," and the Eye-in-Hand logo, is subject to the guidelines and terms of any applicable license provided in our
and

I am well aware of those guidlines.

But notice carefully that they are GUIDELINES.

Do you understand that you can not 'carte blanche' trademark a name?  While I could not use the name McDonald's to open up a burger stand, there would be nothing McDonald's could do to stop me from opening "McDonald's Hardware Store."

 

 

If you bothered to read those "guidelines" they seem to say they have done just that. Here is a list of their
. And
is where they list how you can use their trademarks. Section 5 would be the relevant part.

And once again, ALL those sections are under the heading: 

Guidelines for Using SL™ or inSL™   
[LL's bolding, not mine].

It is guidance.  Those give you good examples of what THEY think is acceptable.

However, look at Section 2:

This is OK:  
  [LL's bolding, not mine].

Dell inSL

SL Budget Shopping Guide

Chic Clothing Boutique inSL

SL Architectural Design Services Inc.

SL Chinese Residents Association

 

Again the final decider in any use would be a Court.  For instance, LL currently has a lawsuit against someone over the use as their business name "SLART." 

But considering the above "This is OK" list, do you think "SL Bar Association" might just be OK?

 

 

eta:wierd typo

 

Youkeep saying guidelines as if we don't have to follow them anyway. But no, i do not think SL Bar Association would be ok. Why? Because they also list this..

This is NOT OK:

SL Virtual World Platform

SL Teen Grid

Virtual Currency Exchange inSL

SL Land Auctions

SL Avatar Skin

SL Avatar Clothing

SL Source Code

SL Viewer Software

SL Scripting Language Guide

SL Architecture Working Group

Inventory Folder inSL

Image Upload Tool inSL

World Map inSL

Permissions System inSL

SL Resident Newsletter

SL Community Forums

SL Support Portal

SL Knowledge Base

So to be on the safe side i would not use SL in any group or domain name, just like section 2.3 is confusing so is the trademark section. Which you agreed to when you agreed to the ToS.

"By using the Service, you agree to and accept these Terms of Service, including all policies and terms linked to or otherwise referenced herein. If you do not so agree, you should decline this Agreement, in which case you are prohibited from accessing or using the Service."

Did you even bother to read the paragraph that preceded that "Not OK" list?  Did you perhaps notice how specifically SL-Centric those terms are?

Seriously, I am beginning to get the idea that you are being obtuse simply for the sake of being obtuse.

It's time to get off this tangent and back to the subject matter of this thread.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

Did you even bother to read the paragraph that preceded that "Not OK" list?  Did you perhaps notice how specifically SL-Centric those terms are?

Seriously, I am beginning to get the idea that you are being obtuse simply for the sake of being obtuse.

It's time to get off this tangent and back to the subject matter of this thread.

 

Yes, I did.. There is a group called SL Bar Association and they link to  http://slbarassn.ning.com/ and they are the ones doing the discussion on saturday. soo... yeah. Perhaps you are the obtuse one.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

What resonated with me is that what we needed from the beginning was democracy.  I would not go that far -- LL is a business  --  but I often think that what we have is more like Somalia, with no real govt other than by whichever gang is strongest.

Because it's a Virtual WORLD.

In the beginning, when the world was owned by us, the people who bought a piece of virtual land, I thought there would come a day that we would create a democracy. Because we have a world to care for, we have an economy to protect, and we need more independance from the gods who gave us this world.

In those days LL took the position as a facilitator, they owned the servers, but we owned the virtual land. And LL did not seems to understand what we were doing on this grid that they sold us. And since you cannot talk with millions at the same time with the few hunderd people at the lab, it seemed logic that one day we would choose a represention of residents, that gives voice to how want our world to be. A group that can negotiate with LL about the changes we do and we don't want in OUR world.

When Mark Kingdon was CEO, we were also forced to agree with a new TOS. This expropriated our land. SL did no longer belong to its residents. In stead of OUR land, SL became their product. The message was hard and clear: you own nothing here, you are nothing but LL's customer.

Since then the idea of democracy in SL has disappeared completely from my thoughts about SL.

 

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Madeliefste Oh wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

 

What resonated with me is that what we needed from the beginning was democracy.  I would not go that far -- LL is a business  --  but I often think that what we have is more like Somalia, with no real govt other than by whichever gang is strongest.

Because it's a Virtual WORLD.

In the beginning, when the world was owned by us, the people who bought a piece of virtual land, I thought there would come a day that we would create a democracy. Because we have a world to care for, we have an economy to protect, and we need more independance from the gods who gave us this world.

In those days LL took the position as a facilitator, they owned the servers, but we owned the virtual land. And LL did not seems to understand what we were doing on this grid that they sold us. And since you cannot talk with millions at the same time with the few hunderd people at the lab, it seemed logic that one day we would choose a represention of residents, that gives voice to how want our world to be. A group that can
negotiate
with LL about the changes we do and we don't want in OUR world.

When Mark Kingdon was CEO, we were also forced to agree with a new TOS. This
expropriated our land. SL did no longer belong to its residents. In stead of OUR land, SL became their product. The message was hard and clear: you own nothing here, you are nothing but LL's customer.

Since then the idea of democracy in SL has
disappeared
completely from my thoughts about SL.

 

When was there a time when land was not rented from LL? Are there people that still "own" land and don't have to pay tier?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 

When was there a time when land was not rented from LL? Are there people that still "own" land and don't have to pay tier?

Whether it was a marketing trick or an ideal of Philip, the impression was given that people were owner of the land they had bought. You paid tier to LL, not rent. The tier was paid as a compensation for the serverspace where the 'land' was stored. But the virtual land, which ment in those days something like 'the visual presentation of the reserved server space' was given us ownership over at the moment of buy.

 

There are indeed still people who 'own' land and don't have to pay. Those are the early residents. They have a lifetime free premium account, so they also have this free 512m land avaialble for the rest of their life.

 

 

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Darrius Gothly wrote:
                

  • Delete my Avatar accounts

I wish I could know that such strong statements and actions from a former LL employee would have some level of impact on the thinking and behavior of Rodvik and the BoD ...

 

I understand your passion and where you're coming from Darrius...truly...but if/when you get to the point you mentioned, please don't delete your avatar; just leave it sitting at Basic.  I'd miss you too much. :(

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