Alicia Sautereau Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Alicia Sautereau wrote: No problem You said that you and others wrote on that real contract that you were forced to sign it. As that isn`t possible with the ToS, maybe the complaints and the texture sites removing SL specific usage, maybe some judge will see it the same way as that legal document that was signed under force. Ofcourse this would only work for old items and not for any new ones, but maybe it`s enough of a bone to throw to a judge that every one is being held hostage, same as the tenant example. A Judge will recognize you couldn't "write" on the TOS. However, his next question might be did you contact LL as explained in the TOS. "All notices given by you or required under this Agreement shall be faxed to Linden Lab Legal Department at: (415) 243-9045; or mailed to us at: Linden Lab Legal Department, 945 Battery Street, San Francisco, CA 94111." Reasonable expectations could come in to play here. Gets interesting. :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Will all rich merchants with their own lawyers with alot to lose please step forward and send a few faxes for the sake of virtual humanity? :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2: * edit * Disclaimer: I only make stupid requests in the weekend. (usually) I guess the best assistant lawyer is a clueless nub with commen sense to ask and twist points to a point that the point becomes a hole :matte-motes-nerdy: Think I`ll start thinking about looking for a new job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiftRaven Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: My pet peeve is "Linden Labs" especially said by people saying how long they have been in SL. I "appropriated" the lightning/logo from someone on General Forums, with her permission. Dang! Thank you for reminding me that I still need to watch the "Once Upon a Time" premiere. With the ship heading out to Never-Never land mermaids would fit right in. What I'm still not getting is Peter Pan (I'm assuming that's the archetype being used) as a dark shadow figure perplexes me; unless the show is just going with a darker version overall. In the last show prior to the premiere I almost felt "good" about Mr. Gold/Rumple and his tenderness toward Belle. I wrote "Linden Labs" instead of "Linden Lab" on purpose hoping you would pounce with a Thunder and Lighting correction. :smileyvery-happy: But I feel like such a butthead cause it completely slipped my mind that when I mentioned "Mermaids" it was a bit of a spoiler for those who had not seen it. :smileysad: I feel like I should say something about the TOS. But not sure what to say, other than I'm hoping this Second Life "Great Depression" is soon over with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Not much to say about the ToS besides trying to find a hole in it, it ultimately depends on a few people who are or have an attorney to nitpick all the possible twists that can be found to nullify it and report back to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I have read through all the threads. I was at the emergency meeting when the UCCSL was created, and I'm a member of that group now. I am amazed at how organized it has become in such a short time span! We even have a google docs location we can share documents, edit them, and get them available to all members instantly! And even with all that, I'm still at the "I don't know WHAT to think." stage. There have been theories, speculations, and even some "educated guesses" as to what Linden Lab's reasons are for this huge fiasco. I don't know how to feel about it all because (without some sort of official statement from the Lab), we can't know what's really going on here. I have a lot of respect for all the creators and merchants who've made SL what it is today. I've become one of them. Even if I am just a little little guy in the whole scheme of things. Still though, I'm proud of what I've accomplished in my nearly 6 years in Second Life. Small, or no. And so here we are, wondering where our futures lie in this wonderful virtual world because Linden Lab has taken this route with the Terms Of Service we all have to agree to have access to our creations. I don't have the answers for you, folks. I wish I did. I probably shouldn't have posted to this thread because I have nothing to constructively contribute to it. But the above are my feelings on all this up to this point. Have I stopped creating? No. I absolutely LOVE making textures and building, so I won't EVER stop. But, I haven't uploaded any new texture packs since the TOS got changed on us suddenly either. Once all this gets resolved to our satisfaction, I'm going to have a LOT to get out there! Toy Dude, Miss Czari, Darrius, Perrie (and the rest)...I stand with you all in this. Concerned, confused, aggravated, angry, and downright pi$$ed off about this whole affair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drongle McMahon Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 There are some with large businesses that will be seriously affected by the changes. I would be surprised if they have not already thoroughly involved their attorneys. In that case, those attorneys will surely have told them not to say anything in public. So the silence may be a sign of action, not of inaction. The danger is that the large providers may secretly negotiate different terms, leaving the rest of us relatively hobbled by the public terms. There is provision in the ToS for such special variations of terms (11.4). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Drongle McMahon wrote: There are some with large businesses that will be seriously affected by the changes. I would be surprised if they have not already thoroughly involved their attorneys. In that case, those attorneys will surely have told them not to say anything in public. So the silence may be a sign of action, not of inaction. We can always hope some one will share the answer I`m curious as hell lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Drongle McMahon wrote: There are some with large businesses that will be seriously affected by the changes. I would be surprised if they have not already thoroughly involved their attorneys. In that case, those attorneys will surely have told them not to say anything in public. So the silence may be a sign of action, not of inaction. Nothing could be worse than to have your client confess to a murder while they are in Court for a traffic ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiftRaven Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Alicia Sautereau wrote: Not much to say about the ToS besides trying to find a hole in it, it ultimately depends on a few people who are or have an attorney to nitpick all the possible twists that can be found to nullify it and report back to the community. I think the biggest hole is the deceitful way in which LL got everyone to agree. Small strategic changes to the TOS so people would just get used to clicking ok, then BAMM!! They dropped the current TOS bomb on us and everyone happily bit into a grenade disguised as an apple. But what really irks me is how quiet LL continues to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: It's this section that has me scratching my head.. "Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf (at Linden Lab’s cost and expense, to which you hereby consent and irrevocably appoint Linden Lab as your attorney-in-fact, with the power of substitution and delegation, which appointment is coupled with an interest)." Why do they need to act as our attorney? Are they going to go after copybotters or content thieves? Waiting for someone to say "oh, this is just LL trying to protect us from theft". No, this is LL positioning to have monetary rights on our goods, and then rights to protect their own interests. Still points to there being some kind of plan here, and not ignorance, laziness of lawyers or the best of intentions. For a company that has reduced spending on all fronts (SL events, Jira, one less data center, etc.), you can see how eager they would be to spend many thousands to fight for us legally. No a click does not grant you those kind of legal powers, LL. Doesn't give you virtually unlimited rights either, but thanks for trying. Racking up points in consumer trust as only LL can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: It's this section that has me scratching my head.. "Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf (at Linden Lab’s cost and expense, to which you hereby consent and irrevocably appoint Linden Lab as your attorney-in-fact, with the power of substitution and delegation, which appointment is coupled with an interest)." Why do they need to act as our attorney? Are they going to go after copybotters or content thieves? Waiting for someone to say "oh, this is just LL trying to protect us from theft". No, this is LL positioning to have monetary rights on our goods, and then rights to protect their own interests. Still points to there being some kind of plan here, and not ignorance, laziness of lawyers or the best of intentions. For a company that has reduced spending on all fronts (SL events, Jira, one less data center, etc.), you can see how eager they would be to spend many thousands to fight for us legally. No a click does not grant you those kind of legal powers, LL. Doesn't give you virtually unlimited rights either, but thanks for trying. Racking up points in consumer trust as only LL can. It semi makes sense. The question could arise in a case whether you had the right to the property and could potentially be named as a co-defendent. This is actually something that could work in your favor. Lawyers are not cheap. But requesting blanket permission is again stretching it. ETA, I'd think a Judge would ask if this joint representation created any conflict of interest between you and LL. That would be a fast road to a mis-trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Perrie Juran wrote: Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: It's this section that has me scratching my head.. "Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf (at Linden Lab’s cost and expense, to which you hereby consent and irrevocably appoint Linden Lab as your attorney-in-fact, with the power of substitution and delegation, which appointment is coupled with an interest)." Why do they need to act as our attorney? Are they going to go after copybotters or content thieves? Waiting for someone to say "oh, this is just LL trying to protect us from theft". No, this is LL positioning to have monetary rights on our goods, and then rights to protect their own interests. Still points to there being some kind of plan here, and not ignorance, laziness of lawyers or the best of intentions. For a company that has reduced spending on all fronts (SL events, Jira, one less data center, etc.), you can see how eager they would be to spend many thousands to fight for us legally. No a click does not grant you those kind of legal powers, LL. Doesn't give you virtually unlimited rights either, but thanks for trying. Racking up points in consumer trust as only LL can. It semi makes sense. The question could arise in a case whether you had the right to the property and could potentially be named as a co-defendent. This is actually something that could work in your favor. Lawyers are not cheap. But requesting grabbing blanket permission is again stretching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Alicia Sautereau wrote: It semi makes sense. The question could arise in a case whether you had the right to the property and could potentially be named as a co-defendent. This is actually something that could work in your favor. Lawyers are not cheap. But requesting grabbing blanket permission is again stretching it. Yes, we are feeling kind of naked laying here right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 What would be funny is for LL to take someone to court, only to have the original artist in turn take LL to court for misrepresenting them. I know I would, and if there were damages involved you can believe I'd be going after those and then something from LL. I'd probably also grant limited rights to the person that LL was taking to court free of charge, just because. And then I'd send LL a bill for having to handle various duties on their behalf, aside from the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Another big shot over LL's bow that the Creators of SL are angry and scared... and wont stand around naively when LL makes such serious moves..... Today one of SondLife's biggest names in 3D content development, Sculpties, Mesh... Gaia Clary has announced how Avastar is taking actions in response to LL's recent TOS changes to better protect their customers and send a message.... This is a big move ... http://blog.machinimatrix.org/2013/10/03/linden-labs-changes-in-tos/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia Sautereau Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Awsome Gaia! Even Blender gets the SL rename :matte-motes-silly: Thanks for the link Toy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Good deal, I'm glad they decided to make the reference OpenSim. Their world, our metaverse. We kind of always knew the imagination bit was ours. Actually I'm trying to figure out how to reword their slogan now. Our world, your hijacked stuff, our power of attorney, your imagination if we can sell it ...or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 RiftRaven wrote: Czari Zenovka wrote: My pet peeve is "Linden Labs" especially said by people saying how long they have been in SL. I "appropriated" the lightning/logo from someone on General Forums, with her permission. Dang! Thank you for reminding me that I still need to watch the "Once Upon a Time" premiere. With the ship heading out to Never-Never land mermaids would fit right in. What I'm still not getting is Peter Pan (I'm assuming that's the archetype being used) as a dark shadow figure perplexes me; unless the show is just going with a darker version overall. In the last show prior to the premiere I almost felt "good" about Mr. Gold/Rumple and his tenderness toward Belle. I wrote "Linden Labs" instead of "Linden Lab" on purpose hoping you would pounce with a Thunder and Lighting correction. :smileyvery-happy: But I feel like such a butthead cause it completely slipped my mind that when I mentioned "Mermaids" it was a bit of a spoiler for those who had not seen it. :smileysad: I feel like I should say something about the TOS. But not sure what to say, other than I'm hoping this Second Life "Great Depression" is soon over with. You weren't the person to whom the KABOOM was meant for...it was someone else, but I'm too tired to go back and see who it was at this time of night....lol. It was someone who only posted once in this thread and I didn't recognize the name. Between the US government "shutting down" and this in SL I'm thinking of starting to dig a foxhole. :matte-motes-mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 One of the best parts of that meeting was meeting you "in person" Marcus. *Smiles* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Czari Zenovka wrote: One of the best parts of that meeting was meeting you "in person" Marcus. *Smiles* Awww...well thank you, Miss Czari. I was really glad to meet you in person too! :smileyvery-happy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 ANOTHER MAJOR BLOW TO LL's TOS CHANGE STANCE.... This news had already been mentioned by the newly created United Content Creators of SL (UCCSL), but now she has formally announced it in her own blog with a full explanation of her decision. This is another MAJOR BLOW to LL's credibility on their recent TOS Change that hi-Jacks IP content rights of all creators and artists of SecondLife. Bryn Oh, one of SecondLife's most notable and famous Artists and a huge supporter of the art community in SecondLife has decided to resign from the Linden Endowment for the Arts (LEA) committee as a direct result of LL's recent TOS changes on Aug 16. http://brynoh.blogspot.ca/2013/10/farewell-lea.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 One of my tweets to @RODVIK (as he is known in Twitter)... To @rodvik We've created a formal United Content Creators of SL to fight LL TOS. Woes to any giant that angers a million ant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trinity Yazimoto Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Toysoldier Thor wrote: One of my tweets to @RODVIK (as he is known in Twitter)... To @rodvik We've created a formal United Content Creators of SL to fight LL TOS. Woes to any giant that angers a million ant! ive myself twitted rodvik since several days, but he seems to be hard of hearing (or blind ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Toysoldier Thor wrote: One of my tweets to @RODVIK (as he is known in Twitter)... To @rodvik We've created a formal United Content Creators of SL to fight LL TOS. Woes to any giant that angers a million ant! ive myself twitted rodvik since several days, but he seems to be hard of hearing (or blind ) LOL... Ohh I suspect Rdvik is avoiding his twitter account to his customers. This does fall well within Rodvik's position and directions for LL... It has become extremely clear that Rodvik has set a policy to close almost all direct LL to Customer communications avenues except where the communication is critical to the operation of SecondLife. That explains his orders to Gag the Resident JIRA what was a critical important communicaiton flow from the community to LL. You rarely see any LL twitter accounts active or used. LL has pulled away from almost all inworld major events. The Commerce Team only communicates with the Merchants on what appears to be a semi-annual basis. So... its not surprising that the man that has set the policy to CHOKE OFF ALL INTERACTIONS BETWEEN LL AND ITS CUSTOMERS would ever respond back via twitter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Bliss Couture is closing and I just heard that AlphaMale is as well. Bliss, to my knowledge, has not made any statement about closing due to the new TOS and I have no idea about AlphaMale; could be coincidental timing...but interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Trinity Yazimoto wrote: Toysoldier Thor wrote: One of my tweets to @RODVIK (as he is known in Twitter)... To @rodvik We've created a formal United Content Creators of SL to fight LL TOS. Woes to any giant that angers a million ant! ive myself twitted rodvik since several days, but he seems to be hard of hearing (or blind ) Or hiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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