"Standard Sizes"

[Pamela Galli]

Freya wrote:

 

"Heck, yesterday I had to explain very patiently that making a list of 'bad people' on a notecard and advertising it for sale is not a smart idea."

 

Wow, that list would really simplify matters, wouldn't it!  :smileyvery-happy:

[Phil Deakins]

Freya. I posted that this thread had run its course I started the thread so I'm free to make that judgement) and asked for the discussion to finish. You responded positively and that was that. What happened that caused you to get stuck in again? especially with what amount to insults? Were you just bored and fancied doing a bit of trolling, or what?

Frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. You may understand physics but it has nothing to do with the topic that this thread morphed into. I, on the other hand, have made and sold furniture for 6 whole years in SL, and extremely successfully too. In other words, I know about the sizes of furniture in SL. I understand why it is necessary to make it bigger than RL furniture. I am an expert. All you know is about physics - and we only have your word for that. After all, you can't even see with your own eyes that gravity in SL is not always the same as it is in RL. It's blatantly obvious but you can't see it. If the best you can do is attempt to denigrate an actual expert in the field of furniture sizes, it's best if you keep out of it until such times as you have at least an inkling of understanding concerning the topic.

[Freya Mokusei]

As stated in my post above, I felt it was unfortunate that your resistance in wanting to understand this issue should be something that affects others. As I said to you, you are free to do as you please, and build to whatever standards you choose. I appreciate that the late timing of these posts is jarring, but forums are asynchronous and there is nothing I could do about it.

I would disagree that physics has nothing to do with whether RL measuring units such as meters have anything to do with SL measuring units. I have given proof of this, and much further reading exists. Perspective is obviously drawn into this discussion too, despite your claims to the contrary.

You're free to say what you think comes under the definition of your 'issue', but as I said, it is unfortunate that your choices in this thread have limited its ability to inform others. I felt it necessary to tell Coby (and others who may be reading) that your opinions are not as well-based as you make them sound.

I appreciate that you have a history of making furniture and making sales, but to me this is only makes your lack of understanding more depressing. Please, by all means, continue suggesting that gravity is something you can accurately measure with your eyes, on a platform that calculates physics prior to sending them to the viewer (hint: latency/lag plays a role in your eyes' perception of it) - making these claims does wonders to your definition of 'expert'. You may well imagine you have good points, but your approach in demonstrating your gained knowledge needs work.

I wouldn't dare tell you what areas you should keep out of until you achieve a better understanding. I did enjoy the thread, and I do wish you luck and success in your endeavours.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Inasmuch as my question in the OP about standard sizes for mesh clothes was answered fully on page 1 of this thread, I see no purpose in continuing the thread. It currently has about 130 posts in it and yet the question was fully answered in the first few posts.

Regarding the discussion on the sizes of things in SL as compared to their counterparts in RL, which accounts for almost all of the posts in the thread, and was not the topic of the thread, nobody has changed anybody's mind, and nobody will. So can we agree to differ (again) and leave it at that?

Hugs all round :matte-motes-big-grin: and a big kiss to Coby :matte-motes-kiss:

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I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess.

;-)

[Freya Mokusei]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess.

;-)

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I'm sure you've read where I made this point also. The conversation was reframed several times too many.

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess.

;-)

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I'm sure you've read where I made this point also. The conversation was reframed several times too many.

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I'm just going to go back to playing with my toys.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

 

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess.

;-)

---

I'm sure you've read where I made this point also. The conversation was reframed several times too many.

---

I'm just going to go back to playing with my toys.

 

 

---

I mentioned to Hippie the other day that I've owned a progression of scales of Tinkertoys.

"I've had four sets so far. First I had the normal wooden set, then a teenie tiny plastic set that came in a li'l plastic tube. The hubs were the size of Smarties. Then a larger wooden set. Finally, in college, I found a giant plastic set with hubs the size of go-kart wheels. Now I have a go-kart with wheels the size of giant tinker toy hubs."

Here in SL, I could live inside a tinkertoy hub! Think of "Greenies".

I find the weird scales of SL amusing. I don't mind sitting on a chair with my feet off the ground (or in the ground ;-), nor do I mind standing next to, or dancing with, someone 2-10x my height.

So, SL is a hot mess for me, in the sense that it makes no sense... and I like it.

[Phil Deakins]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

As stated in my post above, I felt it was unfortunate that your resistance in wanting to understand this issue [...].

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That's as far as I got in your post. Having read that bit it's obvious that the rest is irrelevant.

I have no reluctance whatsoever to understand the issue. The thing is, having dealt with it for a full 6 years, I understand it perfectly. In fact, I'm an expert in it. What you really mean is that I show reluctance to agree with someone else, and that's true. I'm totally reluctant to accept that physics has anything to do with it - because it doesn't. But that's all you think about. It has nothing to do with the topic of this debate.

I just had a quick glance at the first few words of your second paragraph, which shows clearly that you have no comprehension whatsoever about what we have been discussing. Physics doesn't enter into in any way shape or form. If you were to read the thread, then perhaps even you would get a smattering of understanding. You're the only one who has been majoring on physics, presumably because you read something in one of my posts about gravity - something you are still unable to see with your own eyes, incidentally, even though it's as plain as the nose on your face. But it was why I mentioned gravity and, if you'd followed the thread, you would have known that it has nothing to do with the issue in the debate  It merely showed that SL is not the same as RL, and that's all. It has nothing to do with the topic of avatar, furniture and room sizes, which is the only thing that this discussion is about. I can only imagine, of course, but I do imagine that you saw me mention gravity and thought something like, "Aha!. I know a bit about gravity, and the way that the SL system deals with it, so I'll get into this one." Unfortunately you got into it without any apparent knowledge of what the discussion is about.

It's very illuminatiig, though, that you chose to ignore the extremely relevant parts that you have no answers for. For instance, suppose that the word 'meter' is never mentioned in the SL system, and that a sim measures 256 units x 256 units. How tall should the average avatar be in units? Your silence on that shows that you have no idea about this discussion, or you simply don't have an answer, or you realise that it proves my point so you prefer not to answer. You only want to talk about physics, which doesn't enter into it. And, because I say physics doesn't enter into it, you say that I have no understanding of the issue. It's not very bright of you, is it?

So I repeat my suggestion to you, which is to stay out of it until such times as you have at least a smattering of understanding, and leave it to the experts, of which 6 whole years of extremely successful involvement in it has proved me to be one. Nobody makes US$5000 a month from selling wrongly sized furniture, so I must have done it right, and that makes me an expert.

Note: I didn't read any further into your post. When it looks like you have something valid to say on the subject, I'll read it, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Phil Deakins]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

Inasmuch as my question in the OP about standard sizes for mesh clothes was answered fully on page 1 of this thread, I see no purpose in continuing the thread. It currently has about 130 posts in it and yet the question was fully answered in the first few posts.

Regarding the discussion on the sizes of things in SL as compared to their counterparts in RL, which accounts for almost all of the posts in the thread, and was not the topic of the thread, nobody has changed anybody's mind, and nobody will. So can we agree to differ (again) and leave it at that?

Hugs all round :matte-motes-big-grin: and a big kiss to Coby :matte-motes-kiss:

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I've read almost none of the thread, but it seems to me that the issue isn't size so much as scale. In that regard, as in so many others, SL is a hot mess.

;-)

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Scale was never an issue in this debate, Maddy. Freya tried to say that it was, but she didn't understand what the debate was about, and she was the only one. She still appears to not understand. I don't think she read the thread either. It's nothing to do with scale.

[Freya Mokusei]

Phil Deakins wrote:

 

 

Freya Mokusei wrote:

As stated in my post above, I felt it was unfortunate that your resistance in wanting to understand this issue [...].

 

That's as far as I got in your post. Having read that bit it's obvious that the rest is irrelevant.

 

 

I'm happy to discard your posts too. I tried (and I was even willing to explain my position once again), but there's clearly no point in continuing. The remainder of my posts have been to other people.

 

Take care.

[Dresden Ceriano]

No that we've gotten that settled, what was this thread about again?

...Dres

[Phil Deakins]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

SL gravity being the same as Earth gravity, means that you can compare falling velocities of objects that weigh equivilent mass in both worlds to demonstrate that the length of the meter is properly defined. Meters exist and govern the way SL operates regardless of your comprehension of the subject. I cannot state it any simpler than this.

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I suggest you read the thread. It has nothing whatsoever to do with gravity, falling velocities, or anything similar. If you can prove that the RL meter is the same as the SL meter with it, it doesn't make a scrap of difference to what this discussion has been about, which is the height of avatars, which means that the furniture has to fit them, which in turn means that rooms have to suit the avatars and the furniture. It's really very simple.

And I still see that you fail to answer my 'units' question. But so what? Don't let the fact that it proves everything I've been saying ruin it for you, so keep on ignoring it

Still, it does sound like you're finally bowing out, and that's most welcome.

[Phil Deakins]

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Dresden Ceriano wrote:

No that we've gotten that settled, what was this thread about again?

...Dres

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Standard Sizes as applied to mesh clothes

[Coby Foden]

Thanks Freya, it's good to know that somebody understands what I'm really talking about. :matte-motes-smile:

[Freya Mokusei]

I'm bad at this, clearly.

I agreed with you that spaces should be designed for the third person perspective (Page 12/13? I forget). This does not mean that things should be 'generally larger' in SL, or however you want to qualify the remainder of the content that you've posted.

Your stuff about the meter magically being different made no sense, I still have no reason why you pursued this line of reasoning. It doesn't matter about inventing new names for something that SL already deliberately defines, meters exist in SL and still would regardless of any change to name or scale. Apart from being an exercise of absurdity, you would have to rewrite (or more realistically, remove) the entire physics and rendering engine to prevent this being true. I don't think I've ever encountered a 3D engine that is completely incapable of being reduced to meters on some level (even WoW, Minecraft and SimCity have the capability for it), and I can't imagine any scenario in which LL would choose to separate the meter from their world (remember of course, that Second Life started out as an experiment for motion recognition). None of this means you have to stick to real world sizes (something that no-one in this thread has suggested), but it also doesn't mean you can distort or discard the laws of physics in the virtual world that you're inside.

When a user builds a chair that is larger than in real life, this may be done for convenience sake - cushions don't 'sag' when sat on in SL, and some chairs have space for cuddling. Or even as you suggest, people might make chairs larger than reality simply so that they can be seen more clearly from a third-person perspective; neither choice invalidates the use of the meter. or of the physics equivilence with real world scale. What I am against however, is the misleading numbers and viewpoints given in SL by the SL viewer - this makes it unreasonably difficult to make those choices in an informed way.

I'm trying to make this as clear as I can, I don't think there's any cause for harsh feelings here and if you're still willing to read, then I'm still willing to type. If you're truly not interested in what I have to say then you are welcome to discard my posts.

[Aethelwine]

Phil,

I read this thread earlier and was under the impression you built furniture for large avis...

I have just had a look at your store and whilst the kitchen units work surfaces come up my breasts, my feet go through the floor on your chairs... and my avi is under 6ft (without heels just over with heels). So I would have to scale kitchen down, but they seem to be mod so that wouldn't be a problem. I am small by most SL standards although above average for real life. I am a bit confused though because you seem to make ur furniture for avis towards smaller end of the scale. Not as I thought from the way you were arguing for larger avis

Some nice stuff btw. I would have bought more if I didn't already have umpteen sets of furniture and kitchens

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Your stuff about the meter magically being different made no sense, I still have no reason why you pursued this line of reasoning.

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If you'd read the thread instead of jumping in at a tangent, you would have known the answer to that. I kept saying that meters are irrelevant but I'll explain and then perhaps it will be an end to it.

1. The general height of avatars sets the size of furniture which, in turn, sets the size of rooms.

2. The general height of avatars is taller than the general height of RL people, so furniture and rooms are bigger in SL than in RL.

3. If you really want to measure by meters, and there is no reason why not, then you have to accept that things in SL are generally bigger than their RL counterparts.

4. If you want things in SL to be generally the same sizes as their RL counterparts, then you can do it by (a) abandoning the idea that RL and SL meters are the same or (b) ignoring the word 'meters' altogether.

 

If the word 'meter' is ignored altogether, or substituted in your mind for another word such as 'unit', or if the measurement of the SL meter is accepted as not being the same as the RL meter, then everything in SL already is the same general sizes as RL. It's only when you insist that RL and SL meters are the same, AND you insist on using meters as the unit of measurement, that things in SL are generally larger than in RL. But adopt a different attitude (one of those 2, for instance) and you find that the sizes of SL things are reasonably the same as the sizes of RL things.

There is third, and much better, alternative. Accept that there is no reason why SL sizes should reflect RL. And, given that the camera makes huge difference, there is every reason for avatars to be taller than RL people, which has the knock-on effect of causing furniture and rooms to be bigger, of course.

There is something to bear in mind - that it is only a very tiny number of people who really want sizes to match RL AND that those sizes are measured in meters. It's their choice, of course. They can't find much to suit what they want but it's entirely their own choice.

My suggestion to assume that RL and SL meters are different was simply to allow those who want RL sizes to have them without making themselves unusually short. I never said that they are different. I suggested it as a means of achieving what those few want. Abandoning the word 'meter', and mentally substituting it for something else, was another suggestion by which they can have exactly what they want. It's only when they want to swim against the tide and insist that meters are used, and that they must reflect RL sizes, that they find themselves to be different to the rest of SL users.

 

So you see that meters don't actually matter. They only matter for the few people who insist that their avatar, their furniture and their rooms match typical RL sizes - in meters.

 

I hope that gets it all straight.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Aethelwine wrote:

Phil,

I read this thread earlier and was under the impression you built furniture for large avis...

I have just had a look at your store and whilst the kitchen units work surfaces come up my breasts, my feet go through the floor on your chairs... and my avi is under 6ft (without heels just over with heels). I am small by most SL standards although above average for real life.

 

Some nice stuff btw. I would have bought more if I didn't already have umpteen sets of furniture and kitchens

 

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You are still in the store. I'm watching you right now

Yes, it's not possible to suit all sizes of avatar, and I don't make a range of furniture sizes. I don't make stuff for large avs though - just for typical avs, of which I am one

For instance. The seat on a sofa is one height only. A male and a female are usually different heights. Because the avatar thighs don't adjust when sitting, like RL ones do, it's not possible to make a sofa so that both male and female can sit on it and have their feet on the floor. What I do has to be a compromise - the male's feet go into the floor a little and the female's feet are a little above the floor. Some people will find their feet on the floor while the person sitting next to them will find their feet either in the floor or above it. because of SL limitation, seat heights must necessarily be a compromise.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I hope that gets it all straight.

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Straight enough.

I don't typically cherrypick through posts, but I admit I absorbed from your wording throughout the thread that you were being more authoritive/less opinion-based than saying it as you've put it, above. I accept that text and forums are not a perfect medium for tone, and I apologise if I've taken generalisations as fact. I am also all-too-aware of the fact that people may treat the words typed on these pages as authoritive material at some point in the future, and prefer for my posts to be accurate.

As someone who handles a lot of physics-based scripting, I can take the definitions of physical laws quite seriously - the very idea of 'bending' the realities of scale hurts my poor brain. I hope this helps you to understand why I chose to persevere in demonstrating that meters (as a measurement) are important, even if they don't play a major part in the design process for some (or even most) creators. I appreciate that I probably went into too much detail, I was hoping to 'frame' my perspective according to my skillset.

As I've said repeatedly I do enjoy the overall content of your posts, and I have absolutely no complaints about the application of your experiences within SL (just maybe a couple of the definitions ). I like butting heads with you, and I think it would be unfortunate (at least for me, I'm not sure you'll so quickly say the same after this) for the occaisional misunderstanding to lead to a reduction in informative content.

[Phil Deakins]

I enjoy butting heads too. I always have In fact, I chatted with Aethelwine (see a couple of post above) while she was still in the store and that's exactly what I told her. I think a lot of people here know that I enjoy a good 'debate'

Another aspect of forums that can add to the argumentativeness is the bittiness of the posts. E.g. I just summed up what I'm arguing in a single post and without too many words. But all that information gets scattered through a discussion, and comes out bit by bit. Also, discussions go off on little tangents which add to the arguments. In this thread, for instance, I mentioned gravity. It was just a little tangent that really didn't mean much. It was just another of saying that SL really isn't RL. But then gravity took on a bit of a life of its own in the thread lol.

In some aapects, I really was being authoritative though. E.g. I know that furniture is sized according the general avatar heights. It's not just my opinion and I can be authoritative about it, just as you can be authoritative about falling objects .

[Jo Yardley]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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Yes I know there are RL-size rooms in SL Jo Yardley (Berlin) says she does them. But I keep pointing out that they don't work, even with 2-handed movement and drastically altered camera position. It's *still* to awkward negotiating the furniture without bumping into it or walking over it.

My test included changing the cam to the position that was stated in the previous thread, and using 2 hands. I did all that, and it doesn't work in a 12'x12' furnished room. Of course you can stay in the room and blunder your way around it, but that's not the same as it working.

---

It works for me and it seems to be working fine for the people of 1920s Berlin as out 70+ apartments have been practically fully rented since day 1 (4 years ago) and some of our tenants have lived there several years.

We now even have 3 meter wide apartments under sloped roofs.

[Phil Deakins]

You're a bit late to this party, Jo

I'm sure you haven't read the whole thread so I'll sum up the parts that would interest you. Of course you can have 3m wide  furnished rooms with a realistic height (I'm assuming that they are realistic in length - say 12'?. If they are very long, they aren't typical of RL sizes.), and you can have avatars in them IF they drastically change their camera positions AND use 2 hands to negotiate the furniture, but even then it's just too darned awkward and simply isn't anything like the way people get around rooms in RL or in SL. That's why I say it doesn't work. It's so forced that it cannot be the norm. You can do it as novelty, of course, but that's all.

Even Coby, who was the one arguing on the RL-equivalent side, agreed that rooms need to be "slightly bigger", but she wouldn't say how slightly bigger they need to be, even though I asked several times. However, I've now seen a screenshot of her room - in another thread - and it's big. The word "slightly" is totally foreign to it.

[Jo Yardley]

The only concession I make is that the ceilings are a little higher, walls in general are 3.5 or 4 meters high, doors 2.5 and 1.25 wide.

Rooms are realistic size and yes of course you need to change your cameram that's a given, and your avatar needs to be prim scale as well.

But I have no problem navigating these rooms.

My camera:

Bubbles in her room;

 

Here a flickr group for prim scale in SL;

http://www.flickr.com/groups/rl-scale-in-sl/

Anyway, we may never agreem so lets move on, sooner or later VR headsets such as the Oculus Rift will come to SL and then it will become a whole new experience, suddenly more and more people will see things trough the eyes of their avatar and then suddenly realise how huge everything is.

One of the reasons why Berlin was picked for one of the first explorations of SL with the Rift;

http://joyardley.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/first-oculus-rift-user-visits-berlin/

I think that that may, in the future, be a bigger reason to build to prim scale then any age old discussion will.

[Phil Deakins]

I agree that we'll never agree

You pics don't show what it's like to move around in a furnished typical RL room. I have tried it, remember, and with your cam positions and 2-handed movements, and I do know that it's so awkward that saying "it doesn't work" is very reasonable.

You are right that when headsets can be used, it will all be different. Also, the LI of mesh buildings may cause sizes to evolve towards being smaller, but never to RL-sized rooms, because they are awkward.

Anyway, as you said, we'll never agree so let's move on

ETA: Incidentally, the 2nd pic in your post shows a very big reason why it's no good - the avatar not only occupies far too much of the screen, and that's a biggie, but it can't see any low level items that's close to, and the user can only guess as to whether or not it will walk around something like a bed or walk over the corner. It could squash a cat - really.

Nice pics can be taken - you've done that - but that's not negotiating furniture in the room.

[Jo Yardley]

The pronlem is that we're comparing experiences and even if those were the exact same, they could still feel completely different to us.

How you experience something is a personal thing.

Also, I've been living in a cramped prim scale sim for over 4 years with the camera right behind my head while you've just experimented with it a few times.

So it is impossible to compare our experiences.

Maybe you can build your test room and send me a copy and I could at least tell you how I experienced it

Useless, meaningless, won't change anything, but it would be fun.

And of coure the photo is static, I look straight ahead for the photo.

While walking around I also look around and fluently and without any extra hassle also use my camera and sometimes go into mouseview.

What may sound like impractical to you has perhaps become second nature to me.

It seems like everyone in SL experiences and uses their viewer in a different way.

I can't even use the official viewer for 5 minutes before I go nuts, others swear by it.

So we're talking a lot of personal preferences here and you'll never agree on those.

 

As for the other reasons, building in prim scale has allowed me to build more on one region, fit more tenants in (who all seem to really really love living in a prim scale sim) and make stuff with a lower land impact.