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Phil Deakins

"Standard Sizes"

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I've been reading about standard sizes in a thread about mesh clothes. What are standard sizes? The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if it might be the reason, or part of the reason, why avatar heights are tending to be shorter than they used to be.

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I've been reading about standard sizes in a thread about mesh clothes. What are standard sizes? The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if it might be the reason, or part of the reason, why avatar heights are tending to be shorter than they used to be.

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Standard sizes (at least, the ones I know of) affect the following sliders on the female av:

Body Fat
Torso Muscle
Breast Size
Love Handles
Belly Size
Leg Muscle
Butt Size
Saddle Bags
Knee Angle

Other sliders, like body width and height are unaffected, because increasing them stretches rigged mesh along with the avatar skeleton. So use of standard sizing shouln't be directly responsible for a shift in avatar height.

Of course, just as in RL, sizing is not entirely standard. I've had 'standard sized' mesh outfits that don't fit my shape, despite my using the recommended slider settings. Some stores don't use the standard at all.

NB: even though height (and other sliders) shouldn't affect the fit of a rigged mesh, they do distort it. If you go to far from what the designer intended, it might still look out of proportion, even if none of your av pokes through the cothing!

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I've been reading about standard sizes in a thread about mesh clothes. What are standard sizes? The reason I'm asking is because I'm wondering if it might be the reason, or part of the reason, why avatar heights are tending to be shorter than they used to be.

if i remember right it was making close certain standard sizes among creators.. because with so many different shaped avatars..there was really no way they could make a one size fits all like before..

so they had to make some standard sizes..

well not really had to ..but did..

until a deformer comes out ..if itever does..there are standard sizes..

 

that's sort of what i remember..i'm sure there is more to it than that..

it could be one of the reasons we are seeing smaller avatars..but i don't think it's the main reason...

 

there has been this movement for awhile now between large and small that has been going on for a good while now..

mesh may have helped boost it along..

i just think people are wanting to see how realistic they can get their avatars..

especially with how much more realistic skins and content is getting compared to what it used to be years ago..

 

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Digressing slightly....  On the subject of large avatar sizes - I go to a club where lots of 'joined today' and other recent newbies visit.  A lot of the newbies are maximum height.  My theory is that this is because that makes their avatar look bigger on their screen, since they are unaware that it's possible to change the camera viewpoints in debug settings!

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Kelli May wrote:

Of course, just as in RL, sizing is not entirely standard. I've had 'standard sized' mesh outfits that don't fit my shape, despite my using the recommended slider settings. Some stores don't use the standard at all.
 

This is the bane of my life - people who sell five sizes (from XXS to L, or some other combination) in the style of the SSI, but without actually following the SSI shapes. Worse still is mesh prefabbed clothing, which seems utterly incapable of getting it right.

I was in one store last week where my (admittedly 'ample' but hardly 'grandiose') butt was simultaneously Medium and XX-Small. I won't be shopping there again.

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Freya Mokusei wrote:


Kelli May wrote:

Of course, just as in RL, sizing is not entirely standard. I've had 'standard sized' mesh outfits that don't fit my shape, despite my using the recommended slider settings. Some stores don't use the standard at all.
 

This is the bane of my life - people who sell five sizes (from XXS to L, or some other combination) in the style of the SSI, but without actually following the SSI shapes. Worse still is mesh prefabbed clothing, which seems utterly incapable of getting it right.

I was in one store last week where my (admittedly 'ample' but hardly 'grandiose') butt was simultaneously Medium and XX-Small. I won't be shopping there again.

i was on the cool VL viewer the other day..thier recent experimental release had deformer avalable in it..

it used to only be avalable for OS but this one had it for SL as well..

i found a skirt that was setup for deformer..

omg i can't wait till we get that freakin deformer..

no alpha no extra sizes ..just put it on and go!! \o/..this is on one of my avatars shapes that her butt has to have an alpha for baggies lol..( that was a jk) she does have to have an alpha there though..

and it never broke the seams..

LL really needs to get this deformer in here..it would open the market up to where creators don't have to worry about a standard size..

 

i was worried that the deformer would have mesh hugging us like a paint job..but on that it didn't..it just fit and i was off and running hehehehe

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Conifer Dada wrote:

Digressing slightly....  On the subject of large avatar sizes - I go to a club where lots of 'joined today' and other recent newbies visit.  A lot of the newbies are maximum height.  My theory is that this is because that makes their avatar look bigger on their screen, since they are unaware that it's possible to change the camera viewpoints in debug settings!

To continue your digression slightly, the reason why it occurred to me that standard sizes might be a cause of the diminishing avatar height trend is because I was talking with a friend the other day, who said that in her early time in SL, she was the shorty on average, but now she taller than most others, but she hasn't her altered height at all through the years. That was still fresh in my memory when I read about 'standard sizes' in another thread today.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Conifer Dada wrote:

Digressing slightly....  On the subject of large avatar sizes - I go to a club where lots of 'joined today' and other recent newbies visit.  A lot of the newbies are maximum height.  My theory is that this is because that makes their avatar look bigger on their screen, since they are unaware that it's possible to change the camera viewpoints in debug settings!

To continue you digression slightly, the reason why it occurred to me that standard sizes might be a cause of the diminishing avatar height trend is because I was talking with a friend the other day, who said that in her early time in SL, she was the shorty on average, but now she taller than most others, but she hasn't her altered height at all through the years.

well it may have a good impact really..i mean RL fashion works the same way..

teens always up to date on things..

in here we don't have to stick a toothbrush down ourthroats after dinner to keep that cosmo look..

 

fashion has influence for sure..

look at how the sad frowny faced wide crotched avatars took off after awhile..or any other push to the market..

there was a doom and gloom phase also..

all those get inccorporated after awhile and phase out..

 

if we ever getthe deformer..the push for RL sizes may  fade too..but then again..who knows..

it may be bigger than fashion since it's been going on for so long hehehe

 

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

if we ever getthe deformer..the push for RL sizes may  fade too..but then again..who knows..

it may be bigger than fashion since it's been going on for so long hehehe 

The push for RL sizes can never succeed in SL for reasons that we've gone into in great depth in the past. I.e. it can't work indoors in SL.

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Phil Deakins wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

if we ever getthe deformer..the push for RL sizes may  fade too..but then again..who knows..

it may be bigger than fashion since it's been going on for so long hehehe 

The push for RL sizes can never succeed in SL for reasons that we've gone into in great depth in the past. I.e. it can't work indoors in SL.

you are talking about the world itself and how everyone has different sized builds and that furries and vamps and fairies exist?

or that we can't really get a golden ratio with these sliders?

 

i want the deformer to get here..because that will open that freedom of not having to adjust ourselves to limited standards..

SL is all about no limits..as much as it can be..

so in my eyes there is a good reason for the deformer..

 

it probably wouldn't be bad on designer sales in the end either..

 

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Freya Mokusei wrote:



This is the bane of my life - people who sell five sizes (from XXS to L, or some other combination) in the style of the SSI, but without actually following the SSI shapes. Worse still is mesh prefabbed clothing, which seems utterly incapable of getting it right.

I was in one store last week where my (admittedly 'ample' but hardly 'grandiose') butt was simultaneously Medium and XX-Small. I won't be shopping there again.

This is exactly what I am talking about when I say standard isn't standard anymore, well not as much as it once was. People label things as standard but they're really not. I'm not sure why, but this can be the reason why many have issues with a lot of mesh. What they think is standard, because it is in many places they shop, can and does change between creators. It's why I dislike the label of standard because I have no blinking clue which standard they're referring to, lol.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

The push for RL sizes can never succeed in SL for reasons that we've gone into in great depth in the past. I.e. it can't work indoors in SL.

But Phil, I'm shocked to hear you saying that!  :smileysurprised: :smileyfrustrated: 

It was already proved in that other thread that RL sized avatars will work in SL perfectly.

They will work indoors as well as outdoors without any problem.

 

[Edit]

Just to refresh memory:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/What-happened-in-History-on-this-date/m-p/1889481#M94751

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On the contrary, Coby. It was proved that RL sized avatars cannot work indoors in SL - unless that rooms are unrealistically huge, that is.

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

you are talking about the world itself and how everyone has different sized builds and that furries and vamps and fairies exist?

or that we can't really get a golden ratio with these sliders?  

I'm meaning that RL sized avatars can't work well in RL-sized rooms, because of the way we see in SL - from behind the head - and our SL heads don't work the way our RL heads do - they don't move to see where our feet are, for instance. It means that a typical RL sixed living room can't work well enough in SL, even with RL sized avatars.

It's been argued that it does work, because a few people persevere with RL sized everything, but it doesn't. They merely persevere in the face of it not working like RL does.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

On the contrary, Coby. It was proved that RL sized avatars cannot work indoors in SL - unless that rooms are unrealistically huge, that is.

No Phil, it was not proved to be so.  It was just your idea, to what - unfortunately - you still seem to cling to.

 

RL sized avatars are happy with RL sized furniture, vehicles and other stuff. They would need only slightly bigger rooms than in RL to be able to move about easily.  They definitely would not need unrealistically huge rooms as you are claiming.

On the other, hand very tall avatars will need a lot bigger rooms - unrealistically huge - and a lot bigger furniture. Or am I thinking something wrong here, what do you think?

These are the facts - not opinions. :matte-motes-nerdy:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I'm meaning that RL sized avatars can't work well in RL-sized rooms, because of the way we see in SL - from behind the head - and our SL heads don't work the way our RL heads do - they don't move to see where our feet are, for instance. It means that a typical RL sixed living room can't work well enough in SL, even with RL sized avatars.


I assume you mean to say something a little more insightful than "third person perspective doesn't look the same as first person perspective", but I have no idea what it could be.

ETA: Yeah, you're confusing physical size and camera perspective/field of view, which are two separate and unconnected issues. Cameras don't work like eyes, so drawing the equivilence here is silly - RL physical size works because SL only uses an atomic and consistant unit of measurement (meters). Departing thread because nonsense will follow.

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

On the contrary, Coby. It was proved that RL sized avatars cannot work indoors in SL - unless that rooms are unrealistically huge, that is.

No Phil, it was
not
proved to be so.  It was just your idea, to what - unfortunately - you still seem to cling to.

 

RL sized avatars are happy with RL sized furniture, vehicles and other stuff. They would need only slightly bigger rooms than in RL to be able to move about easily.  They definitely would not need unrealistically huge rooms as you are claiming.

On the other, hand very tall avatars will need a lot bigger rooms - unrealistically huge - and a lot bigger furniture. Or am I thinking something wrong here, what do you think?

These are the facts - not opinions. :matte-motes-nerdy:

ya i was trying to understand what was being said by where we look from and where our avatar has to sit..

i mean the only thing i could see that would be any problem at all would be camera room..

but that doesn't have anything to do with  an avatar sitting on a couch sized to the avatar and it fitting hehehe

if the argument is our view from the computer monitor..well that's not really something that would slow me down..

i'll get cam room  in there..

i'll just add more tables for nicknacks or something and have my cam hover over stuff that will fill a little bigger room..

iwho doesn't like more nick nacks?!! \o/ hehehehe

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 

... the reason why it occurred to me that standard sizes might be a cause of the diminishing avatar height trend ...

I think it is mesh objects (houses, furniture, vehicles, etc) which will cause avatar heights to go shorter.

Why so? Well, the bigger mesh objects are made the bigger the LI will go. So I guess that makes designers thinking of making things close to RL sizes instead of 1.5 times or even two times bigger as has been the practice so far.  That will lead people to notice that unrealistacally tall avatars do not go well with RL sized objects.

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it's been awhile since i messed with any of this or been around it..but doesn't the smaller mesh have less impact? or does size not matter with that?

i can't remember how all that works anymore..i've been away for so long..

 

but i'm getting back into it this weekend since everyone is out of town but me lol

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

it's been awhile since i messed with any of this or been around it..but doesn't the smaller mesh have less impact? or does size not matter with that?

Let's suppose we have two copies of the same item. Then we stretch the other item bigger. What will happen?

• The item streched bigger will have bigger land impact (LI) than the smaller item.

So size does matter - smaller item will have smaller LI than the bigger one.

This should encourage designers to make things close RL sizes. This way more things can be fitted on the same land than would be the case with bigger items as each smaller thing would consume less LI than the bigger ones.

 

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Coby Foden wrote:


Ceka Cianci wrote:

it's been awhile since i messed with any of this or been around it..but doesn't the smaller mesh have less impact? or does size not matter with that?

Let's suppose we have two copies of the same item. Then we stretch the other item bigger. What will happen?

• The item streched bigger will have bigger land impact (LI) than the smaller item.

So size does matter - smaller item will have smaller LI than the bigger one.

This should encourage designers to make things close RL sizes. This way more things can be fitted on the same land than would be the case with bigger items as each smaller thing would consume less LI than the bigger ones.

 

kk..i didn't know if faces  and V's  had anything to do with it more than the amount of say a  face is showing..

so i guess it's on the amount one shows rather than how many there are from what it sounds like..

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Coby Foden wrote:


Phil Deakins wrote:

On the contrary, Coby. It was proved that RL sized avatars cannot work indoors in SL - unless that rooms are unrealistically huge, that is.

No Phil, it was
not
proved to be so.  It was just your idea, to what - unfortunately - you still seem to cling to.

 

RL sized avatars are happy with RL sized furniture, vehicles and other stuff. They would need only slightly bigger rooms than in RL to be able to move about easily.  They definitely would not need unrealistically huge rooms as you are claiming.

On the other, hand very tall avatars will need a lot bigger rooms - unrealistically huge - and a lot bigger furniture. Or am I thinking something wrong here, what do you think?

These are the facts - not opinions. :matte-motes-nerdy:

One of your facts is definitely an opinion :) You said that it's my "idea" when in fact it's my fact based on my actual building and testing it. I built an RL sized room (a box) and put an RL sized double bed in it (another box) and made my avatar RL sized,  and adjusted its cam position according to what was said in the thread. Then I tried to use the room and it didn't work - and it can't work. Or perhaps I should say that I could move in the room (obviously) but the suggested cam position and especially the inability to move my head meant that I simply couldn't see where my feet were with respect to the bed, so it doesn't work. On top of that, I only had a bed in it. RL bedrooms have much more than a bed in them. Not only that but, also because the head can't be moved like an RL head, the walls interfered with the camera. Those are facts - not merely my "idea".

However, you did say that it needs a slightly larger room, which implies that you agree that using RL measurements doesn't work - as I said. My room was 12' x 12' I don't remember its height, but a typical RL height would mean that the ceiling would probably get in the way too.. How much larger would you suggest? Tell me the room dimensions and I'll test it again.

ETA: If you, or anyone, can provide me with room dimensions that are only slightly larger than typical RL room dimensions, I'll test it again and, if it does work reasonably well, I'll change my mind, but I can't see that happening because my test already showed that it doesn't work. The only time it will work is when it's possible to use headsets with SL so that the view can change with RL head movements.

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