Abuse and harassment in SL and the role of Linden Lab

[Perrie Juran]

golf clap

[Melita Magic]

Hasn't been my experience...when something's big there is a timely response. 

Look how many in staff vs. how many logged in at a given moment.

There was a guy who used to try to get people to rally against not having enough Spanish speaking places in SL or something like that. I can't remember his avatar name now, though. (Your post reminded me of him.)

[Dresden Ceriano]

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Melita Magic wrote:

Hasn't been my experience...when something's big there is a timely response. 

Look how many in staff vs. how many logged in at a given moment.

There was a guy who used to try to get people to rally against not having enough Spanish speaking places in SL or something like that. I can't remember his avatar name now, though. (Your post reminded me of him.)

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You've Wasted your time Engineering a forum post that smells to coffee.

...Dres

[Melita Magic]

Ah, yes. Suddenly and mysteriously, it all comes back to me....!

[Harley Hynes]

Linden Labs Should Do something on Harrassment in SL. It's going over bearring and yet all they do is sit on there butts all day and say File a Report?  What is that going to do NOTHING ! 

 

I been Dealing with a person in World for awhile now and she still hasnt Stopped. She is Muted, Blocked, Derendered ETC. And now she has her little Friends come after me now. HELLO LINDEN LABS GETS OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING! 

 

She posts Stupid **bleep** on her profile ETC. The Harrassment has to stop Period ! no matter if you mute, derender etc there still going to harrasse you make Threats to you in RL and Call your BF's Cell to harrasse you and no cops dont do dhit either been there done that too. The Person needs to be IP banned and make sure they dont make any more Accounts and have there little friends banned to ! 

[Summer Tison]

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Harley Hynes wrote:

Linden Labs Should Do something on Harrassment in SL. It's going over bearring and yet all they do is sit on there butts all day and say File a Report?  What is that going to do NOTHING ! 

 

I been Dealing with a person in World for awhile now and she still hasnt Stopped. She is Muted, Blocked, Derendered ETC. And now she has her little Friends come after me now. HELLO LINDEN LABS GETS OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING! 

 

She posts Stupid **bleep** on her profile ETC. The Harrassment has to stop Period ! no matter if you mute, derender etc there still going to harrasse you make Threats to you in RL and Call your BF's Cell to harrasse you and no cops dont do dhit either been there done that too. The Person needs to be IP banned and make sure they dont make any more Accounts and have there little friends banned to ! 

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I had a bit of trouble like this back last year, this guy thought he was the dog's watsits and insisted on persecuting me and some others and crashing the place I used to go...so I went looking and actually found a Linden online who was very kind and came to see for himself...he abused the Linden employee too which brought a lot of others Lindens to the place, and eventually after countless alts on his part they managed to stop it.

You need to be pro-active, no good coming here whining, we can't stop it, if you feel like LL are not doing enough to help you, then find a way of making them listen. BTW, why did she have your BF's Cell number?

[Harley Hynes]

We still don't know she used a name we didnt know and said he left someone ETC and hacked his Computer. She has also made threats to me in RL and cops nor LL doesnt do nothing.

 

 

[Summer Tison]

Well I'm sorry you're having issues with her in RL too, at least when it's just SL you can TP away or log out...how I wish someone would invent a TP machine in RL sometimes

I can't comment on why your local Police are reluctant to help, I was under the assumption that they were there to uphold the law, and if you're getting abusive phone calls then that should fall into the 'law breaking' catogory...IDK....

[Perrie Juran]

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Harley Hynes wrote:

We still don't know she used a name we didnt know and said he left someone ETC and hacked his Computer. She has also made threats to me in RL and cops nor LL doesnt do nothing.

 

 

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Oh, I remember you:

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussion-Forum/Harrassment/td-p/1911205

All you did was argue with us and despite all the advise that was given you continued to tango with your "harasser," and make excuses for doing it.

I wish I had screen shots though it would be against the rules to post them here.  There were some things said in that thread that got removed that were real doozies.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Perrie Juran wrote:

real doozies.

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This is a real "Doozy"...

[Czari Zenovka]

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Harley Hynes wrote:

Linden Labs Should Do something on Harrassment in SL.

<snip>

HELLO LINDEN LABS GETS OFF YOUR ASS AND DO SOMETHING! 

<snip>

 

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The name of the company is:

 

(Thanks Coby!  I'm going to enjoy this!!)

[Dillon Levenque]

:-). To save everyone having to wonder, that's a Duesenberg. 'Duesy' would be the actual spelling but it sounds the same. The name is from the builders of a line of American luxury automobiles in the 1930's. The company started in Des Moines, Iowa but moved to Auburn, Indiana. There was another line of luxury cars being built there: the Auburn. Later, a very successful  car salesman (what we would call in this day and age an entrepeneur) whose last name was Cord got involved.

If you google Auburn Cord Duesenberg (these days the owners all hang together; there's even a museum) you will see some incredibly beautiful cars.

[Pie Serendipity]

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Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

 

Do "human rights" extend to pixel people? I think that's debatable.

---

"Human rights" do not exist, even for humans.

Occasionally the strong grant temporary concessions to the weak - when it suits them to do so.

But don't rely on them lasting under pressure.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

They exist but you are unfortunately correct that they can be ignored or denied.

[DoctorEigen Flow]

'Privacy' is mentioned nowhere in the U.S. Constitution... not once.  So claiming 'privacy' is just a shield for not having to be accountable.  Imagine going to the police with a complaint, and they take a report then you are out of the loop... no way, that is not how law enforcement operates anywhere in the U.S., and since Linden is an American company... THAT matters.

[DoctorEigen Flow]

The Lindens leave us no choice, and just as it has become the defacto standard in the United States, people need to  get armed to the teeth and take justice into their own hands.  Again, this has not been tested but I am sure it is true... the rights of SL citizens as Americans, is protected over and above the Linden TOS.  No company can make rules which abridge our Constitutional Rights, even when they believe they OWN a property, and that property is virtual versus real.  For instance, if I was on any  American vendor's shopping site on the WWW, and someone hacked my password and bought something with my account, I have recourse... either through the linked banking establishment, and/or through the vendor itself... I can sue and get relief.  The same is true with Linden.  They've always wanted us to believe that we have no recourse, that we'd have to fly physically to California and file there, that even then they have indemnity statements that isolate and protect them... and so litigation remains largely untested... no matter the claim of abuse, MOST people simply cannot be bothered to carry through, and so 'inconvenience' has protected Linden all these years, not their TOS.  

 

The threat to constant users is, if we complain enough, and Linden is forced to set up a virtual court, with virtual police, to ensure the rights of their citizens, and most specifically their American ones... then they will simply close shop and no one will be allowed to use SL or at least no one without a paid account.  This possibility hovers above us all and has since the beginning.  IF SL had ever become as successful as WOW, then they would be forced to set up accountable standards, but since they never succeeded, they are always teetering on closing shop and we who like SL, are forced to grin and bear whatever injustice we are 'allowed' to have inflicted on us.  "Oh please Lindens, don't abandon SL, we'll be good, we need to be seen and not heard, we got it".  

 

SO my suggestion is to do what Americans are doing in real life, arm yourself to the teeth, buy or build every griefer tool you can get your virtual hands on, and if someone attacks you... let them all loose!  Since the Lindens are unwilling to handle the griefers themselves, then the citizens must take the law into their own hands.... and yes, it WILL get messy, but living as a VICTIM, is irrational and frankly, WRONG.  Set up defense groups, and when a griefer hits a sim, sound the alarm and have a system of 'courts', where proof is laid out and adjudicated.  THEN, your association... your 'group', can find them guilty, and ban them from as many sims as are owned by association members.  If you make your frontier law too harsh, customers and other members might shy away from your collectives, so be fair, be just, be rational... but take action against the bullies, make their virtual life hard.  In the olden days, frontier justice was all the justice people had... well, here we are again.  

 

I also suggest you contact your REAL Congressional representatives and make the issues known, at first because of unfamiliarity, you might be scoffed, but soon a recognition will occur.  Bullies cannot be tolerated, not on Facebook, not on site lists, not in Second Life... real laws protect you in SL, just as they do anywhere online, remember... to law enforcement... a bully, is a bully.  IP Proxy services will be forced to shut down, and finally the NSA will be given the mandate to search and correlate all SL users, to determine alt accounts etc... but if bullies cannot be tolerated, and they can't, ...then these are some of the things that must happen.

[DoctorEigen Flow]

Move up the ladder of authority.   Minions at the bottom might not want to be bothered with taking action, but as you move on up to their supervisors and then their supervisors, at some point, things will click into place and action will be taken.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

LL is a corporation, not the Federal government whose powers are limited by the Constitution.

As for a right to privacy... Some SCOTUS justices have located the right to privacy in the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause's protection of liberty. See  Griswold v. Connecticut, Roe v. Wade, Lawrence v. Texas, etc.

There's also another little amendment to the Constitution that you might have heard of (part of the Bill of Rights) that would cover the right to privacy, even if it was covered nowhere else.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

[Griffin Ceawlin]

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DoctorEigen Flow wrote:

The Lindens leave us no choice, and just as it has become the defacto standard in the United States, people need to  get armed to the teeth and take justice into their own hands.

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Teabaggers unite!

Pfffft.

[Perrie Juran]

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DoctorEigen Flow wrote:

'Privacy' is mentioned nowhere in the U.S. Constitution... not once.  So claiming 'privacy' is just a shield for not having to be accountable.  Imagine going to the police with a complaint, and they take a report then you are out of the loop... no way, that is not how law enforcement operates anywhere in the U.S., and since Linden is an American company... THAT matters.

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I was getting ready to reply to this before I saw your wall of text additional comments.  I am going to stick to this because the rest of your comments are really nothing more or less than an anarchist rant.  And where Anarchy rules, Liberty will always be it's ultimate victim.

First off, where did Griffen ever mention the U.S. Constitution?  And while I really want to stick to the U.S. here, I would point out that Europe has some pretty strict "privacy" rules also.  But sticking to the U.S., and the U.S. Constitution, The Fourth Amendment reads,

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

You are correct, the word "Privacy" is not in the Constitution.

It does not come up until you apply the Amendment.  For instance, in Smith vs Maryland where SCOTUS set out a two prong test,

 

1. a person "has exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy"; and
2. society is prepared to recognize that this expectation is (objectively) reasonable.

 

So while even though the word does not occur in the Constitution, in practical application it does come into play.

Additionally, there are other laws that have been passed that deal with individual privacy.  For instance, my medical records can not be made publicly available with out my permission.  Will you claim that neither Congress nor the States have no Constitutional right to pass such laws?

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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DoctorEigen Flow wrote:

The Lindens leave us no choice, and just as it has become the defacto standard in the United States, people need to  get armed to the teeth and take justice into their own hands.  Again, this has not been tested but I am sure it is true... the rights of SL citizens as Americans, is protected over and above the Linden TOS.  No company can make rules which abridge our Constitutional Rights, even when they believe they OWN a property, and that property is virtual versus real.  For instance, if I was on any  American vendor's shopping site on the WWW, and someone hacked my password and bought something with my account, I have recourse... either through the linked banking establishment, and/or through the vendor itself... I can sue and get relief.  The same is true with Linden.  They've always wanted us to believe that we have no recourse, that we'd have to fly physically to California and file there, that even then they have indemnity statements that isolate and protect them... and so litigation remains largely untested... no matter the claim of abuse, MOST people simply cannot be bothered to carry through, and so 'inconvenience' has protected Linden all these years, not their TOS.  

 

The threat to constant users is, if we complain enough, and Linden is forced to set up a virtual court, with virtual police, to ensure the rights of their citizens, and most specifically their American ones... then they will simply close shop and no one will be allowed to use SL or at least no one without a paid account.  This possibility hovers above us all and has since the beginning.  IF SL had ever become as successful as WOW, then they would be forced to set up accountable standards, but since they never succeeded, they are always teetering on closing shop and we who like SL, are forced to grin and bear whatever injustice we are 'allowed' to have inflicted on us.  "Oh please Lindens, don't abandon SL, we'll be good, we need to be seen and not heard, we got it".  

 

SO my suggestion is to do what Americans are doing in real life, arm yourself to the teeth, buy or build every griefer tool you can get your virtual hands on, and if someone attacks you... let them all loose!  Since the Lindens are unwilling to handle the griefers themselves, then the citizens must take the law into their own hands.... and yes, it WILL get messy, but living as a VICTIM, is irrational and frankly, WRONG.  Set up defense groups, and when a griefer hits a sim, sound the alarm and have a system of 'courts', where proof is laid out and adjudicated.  THEN, your association... your 'group', can find them guilty, and ban them from as many sims as are owned by association members.  If you make your frontier law too harsh, customers and other members might shy away from your collectives, so be fair, be just, be rational... but take action against the bullies, make their virtual life hard.  In the olden days, frontier justice was all the justice people had... well, here we are again.  

 

I also suggest you contact your REAL Congressional representatives and make the issues known, at first because of unfamiliarity, you might be scoffed, but soon a recognition will occur.  Bullies cannot be tolerated, not on Facebook, not on site lists, not in Second Life... real laws protect you in SL, just as they do anywhere online, remember... to law enforcement... a bully, is a bully.  IP Proxy services will be forced to shut down, and finally the NSA will be given the mandate to search and correlate all SL users, to determine alt accounts etc... but if bullies cannot be tolerated, and they can't, ...then these are some of the things that must happen.

---

just out of curiosity..which rules do LL have the step over the U.S. constitution?

All LL will do with their TOS is to cover their butts..

they even cover their butts with certain laws in other countries..

 

what federal laws are being broken?

if one guy is being bullied by another guy in someones store in the real world..

the company is not responsible for that happening..that's free will..

the store owner can ban them from the store..but they are not a contributing factor to why this is happening..

and they are not the police that has a right or reason to do anything about it outside of their own business..

they can hand over any information they have about the incident..

but they are not responsible for someone being bullied by someone else..

 

if someone is being bullied..and is tired of it..it's their responsability to take it to the law..

the only way LL could is if they seen law breaking activity..

 

they say in their TOS they will do that already..

the thing is people think they have to take it to LL for resolve..

that may only get the bully thrown out of the store..

if this bully comes back in using false information and starts to bully the same person..

LL has no idea if it is the same person they just threw out..

it's a new situation to them..

 

so it's up to the person being bullied to get athourities after this other person..

and LL if asked is obligated to give over any evidence that may be helpful..

like chat logs and reports made to them..

LL is not the law..they are just a company..

 

if they start up a police force then they become liable a heck of a lot more than they are now..

right now ..they just have a complaint department..

not officers with badges..

 

so i'm just curious..what laws are beign broken with LL's TOS to where it is stepping over the U.S. constitution?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ArchAngel Thor]

Realizing this post is about 2 years old, I did want to reply on your message.

While what you said is partly true, the problem lies within the terms of service and rules of Linden Lab.

They're without discipline and not firm enough. There has been websites, Blogs if you will, that collected reports of pedophile sims and residents, sent to Linden Lab, phoned to Linden Lab and nothing has been done about it only to receive answers such as "The right of freedom and freedom of speech is applicable here" so the blog stated back in the day.

 

Now if harassment stays in SL and no RL threats are made, I suppose the mute button does it's work fine. I among a lot of people have been harassed many times not only within SL but also residents harassing me or my girlfriend with RL threats such as "I will come to your house in RL and kill you" which is a classic one really. If this happens to you:

Call the police in your area. Tell them exactly what happened - Make sure you make screenshots of the threats. The law can actually help you. I have asked around and been told that RL harassment, even when it's done in virtual environments is taken very seriously. I have the prove of that because years ago I was stalked in SL at first, then later in RL and that I had to endure for a little over a year. I called the police and they took the matter in their hands and I was rid of the stalking behaviour of this person.

So if you are harassed, and they are RL threats.. don't hesitate to call the police in your area.

[ZoeTick]

Too little (or too much, depending upon your viewpoint) and (definitely much) too late.

As well as replying to absolutely the wrong person.

Please post again.

In about two years time.

[ShhZombies]

Ok i wanna say this a woman post about how somehting is really effecting everyone and people are jumping on her in a rude matter cause people are to scared to say what she is. 

 

Then you all say that they gave us tools to stop harrasment what a block reality block can only work as long as they don't make alts. You guys are funny realize that there are much more harrasment then just name calling. Like for example someone hacking a profile. or Someone spreading around pictures of a dead son or someone spreading real life info in a bloodlines clan. realize this all happened to me and i have filled out over 189 reports with pictures with the chat open with them all doing it yet nothing was done about it. 

 

Now this is the other thing do i think linden lab should be held accountable No but they surely can put a team together to help out with these serious issues. Instead of saying that block and all that work and get the law involved reality you guys all say that lidnen labs dont have enough people they dont but i dont see them putting a full team together to even try to do it. Realize also that when you guys say 1 million to 1 lidnen lab thats litreally impossable. Do I believe that LL should put something together for real real tos rule brakers yes. Do i find it unfair how people who should be banned can run off and just keep doing what they are doing yes. 

 

Well we all sit here and do nothing yes there is also filter programs that can loook for words like hack, real life and everything in this but there are tons of people who also have been harrassed in real life through secondlife. And even when you report something it takes forever. SO yes do i agree with what she is saying yes. but reality when you guys are talking about harrasment and you guys are using words like you know where you can stick that comment and everything with snide attudes this is wrong and you guys who are speaking are saying that your feelings matter well so do the strangers who havent been on here. 

 

But its also nice to know by the people on this page that the reporting system on sl means nothing that its just there for us to feel safer its nice to know this and thats words for words out of some of your mouths. Now I saw the womans point you guys all think everyones talking about just cause this person called me a name No we are talking about the real harrasment the people who threaten your real life threaten your computers throw pictures around of real life **bleep** and everything between. Or people who demand your real life info to be part of bloodlines. yet no matter how much they been reported nothing ever happens. Yes you can block but realize blocking people even have a cap on it too. Theres no unlimited blocking or banning caps. now true blocking would be if you could block someones IP that would be more helpful so these tools you speak of that have been around for the past 13 years or as long as Secondlife has been shall i remind you how diffrent Secondlife and the net has become sence then.

 

I think honestly even if they dont hire or put a team together they should give us more tools to use to stop these from happening and reality ejection only works if you own a full sim and not many have 1000 dollars for a sim or 300-400 dollars every month to spit out for a sim cause all they have to do is stand on the edge and keep talking.  So please dont assume shes just talking about name calling and yes do i think the tools we use should be upgraded hell yes I do. but also you guys need to look over half of sl is alternitive accounts. 

 

Hell bloodlines alone theres over 3 million fake accounts. and only like 150,000 real players and thats pushing it. SO yeah i am just speaking from someone who has been harrassed who had to start over that your guys actions you think to protect yourself dont always work. Hell i had 2 accounts stolen from me reported them they are still up and running and they were stolen with 1000 dollars worth of lidnens on them so yeah. But yes I do also see there points that you cant just go after a communitee like all of them are at fault. its a proven fact that there are 4 people nice out of 10 but you know what it happens. So in the mean time make suggestions like. 

 

LL please make a group to at least help from time to time with real problems. 

or  at least up grade tools and give us more options to ban someone who even can make alts. 

 

helpful suggestions and as far as the last name change. Why Resident is so much better then that one you wanted us to have. If i came on and saw a last name like that i would log off and find something else. resident is exactly what we are we are residents of secondlife.... 

 

Also please guys dont attack me for my personal feelings about this cause i would perfer it to be where people can see what i am saying and read this closly.. 

[MrsFaith Silverfall]

 Merry X mas to all to start with i keep it short 

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Michelle wrote:

Michelle in Aviation . Penalty on SLHA 13 weeks ? And a meg that not reply my requist to let me fly over that aria . Ps. I lost my friends over there i was isolated till now so i can t use the aviation like it have to be . and The best builders put there hands of me becourse the not want be invold in this pending case . Time to release your citizen.

 

 

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