Erycina Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 This is more of a rant than anything, but many times my friends have teleported me to adult clubs (strip clubs) where there is sometimes live music etc. and I have been ejected for being a "child" avatar. My avatar has obvious breasts and hips is 5'3 (which is three inches taller than my RL self). They told me the height limit was 5'10!! I understand the fear of child avatars being involved in sexual themes, but this is a little ridiculous. It seems as if you have to be a set height with set proportions to be thought of as an adult in Second Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakts Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 It does seem foolish, my avatar is the same height as I am in real life and I'd be six inches shy of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 I agree that it seems extreme however I also understand an adult strip club owner establishing hard and fast objective rules that their employees must follow regarding avatars. It is easy to say that employees should be left to decide for themselves subjectively about who is a child and who is not, but that may lead to bad choices too. And what if a child avatar is let in as a result and the sim owner is held liable because they did not take what LL considers proper precautions? They stand to lose a lot. Ageplay and child avatars in sexual situations is one of the things that LL takes very seriously and has a zero tolerance policy about. When you go to someone else's land you have to play by the owner's rules as the TOS says they have complete control on their land to let people in or not for any reason or none at all. If you want to go places where there is a height restriction, then 'grow' taller temporarily. Look at as the same thing as when you go to an sim and must follow a dress code and dress in period costume or even change to a different species. I've been to sims where there is a height restriction in reverse and you have to be tiny or a micro avatar to go there. I have no problem complying with that if I want to go there, after all it isn't a permanent change and I can go back to my normal avatar when I leave. If you don't want to do that, there are plenty of other places you can go to hear live music that won't care how tall you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teagan Tobias Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Well, one thing, I guess its good that there are clubs in SL that are making so much money that they can make rules like this. And some say SL is dying, does not look that way. I am about 5' 2” and my shape is not changing to go any place. And I have also seen lately that there are a lot more avatars that are shorter. A couple of years ago any place I went I was always the shortest person around, now more often than not, I am not the shortest at a club, and the really big avatars just look out of place. Things they are a changin, at least it looks that way to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Form your profile I guess you are an escort, shouldn't you know quite a lot adult places to go to? :matte-motes-wink-tongue: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Erycina wrote: They told me the height limit was 5'10!! While the height/child av debate bores me, I have also heard this specific value for height spoken as a 'rule', and I always wonder who invented this ridiculous limit, and why it has spread so virulently through SL. Of course in actuality, 5'10 is significantly above the average female height in the US, and also much of Asia and Europe. 5'9 is the minimum typical height for catwalk modelling (to compare with males, it is similar to being of a height appropriate for a basketball player)! 5'10 is also above the average height for males in Asia and some other areas also. To add to this confusion, the height measured by scripts is not often the same as the actual height of the avatar, making measurements of height incorrect by up to 8 inches (making this fake 'rule' apply even to people who are 6'6, the height of road tunnels and door frames!). Together, this easily makes the 5'10 'rule' stupid, and those who repeat it as if it were fact appear as fools. I laugh at those who say I am 'short' in-world, since they are clearly seeing SL through some imaginary scale. They get the same response as if they thought I was crazy for having hair on my head, or shoes on my feet - people are most often not above 5'10! Really, only by discrediting and using laughter to ridicule those with such poor understanding of height and scale is this fictional limit to evaporate as it should. Any location that enforces such nonsense also should (in my personal opinion, of course) be treated with disdain and pity. A soft 'pat on the head' for dramatically failing to understand the very simple physiological differences between mature adult, and child (Maybe they are concerned with the child labour laws at their RL jobs, thinking short co-workers are merely children in disguise, with fake breasts and mustaches). I certainly would not give them my business, and would think twice about contributing to their traffic statistic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Erycina wrote: This is more of a rant than anything, but many times my friends have teleported me to adult clubs (strip clubs) where there is sometimes live music etc. and I have been ejected for being a "child" avatar. My avatar has obvious breasts and hips is 5'3 (which is three inches taller than my RL self). They told me the height limit was 5'10!! I understand the fear of child avatars being involved in sexual themes, but this is a little ridiculous. It seems as if you have to be a set height with set proportions to be thought of as an adult in Second Life. no just some users sims of second life..not all of second life.. as long as those owners don't show up at other peoples sims or mine telling people i am too short.. we'll get along just fine.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syo Emerald Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Ever noticed that SL is in general not messured like RL? My avatars high would be tall for a RL woman, but it doesn't feel tall inside SL. Not compared to buildings, furniture or other avatars. And thats why I picked this size, because it feels normal. How should I benefit from chosing my RL high, when it doesn't feel the same in SL? (Sure, this rule is stupid...but I don't feel sorry for people getting ejected because of that, because I know a wide range of people posting on this forum has nothing against other rules, who also discriminate avatars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Syo Emerald wrote: Ever noticed that SL is in general not messured like RL? My avatars high would be tall for a RL woman, but it doesn't feel tall inside SL. Not compared to buildings, furniture or other avatars. And thats why I picked this size, because it feels normal. How should I benefit from chosing my RL high, when it doesn't feel the same in SL? (Sure, this rule is stupid...but I don't feel sorry for people getting ejected because of that, because I know a wide range of people posting on this forum has nothing against other rules, who also discriminate avatars. People are welcome to invent any scale they choose, that is one of the many bonusses of this virtual world. I once did visit a sim where my 5'7 avatar was the size of an ant, walking next to giant spoons and forks! (Greenies was the sim, maybe some here were familiar) I don't really mind which scale people choose to apply to themselves or what they build, but to pretend that these scales are universal or to claim that there are rules regarding size is provably false. To complain when people choose to deviate from these 'bent' rules of scale is ridiculous even more so, since the users who employ these altered scales themselves are deviating from reality to begin! One meter = one meter, regardless how else things appear in each users view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Teagan Tobias wrote: Well, one thing, I guess its good that there are clubs in SL that are making so much money that they can make rules like this. For some club owners it's not about money. Actually, for most it isn't. Ask anyone who has actually owned a club for any sustainable period(or even not). Profit really doesn't play a role since the majority of expenses are out of their own pockets. They have the club for others' enjoyment, not just their own. Even if ll didn't say they get to choose to make whatever rules they want, I would think they should. Staying within tos. They are, after all, paying for our entertainment. Unless you want to foot the bill of the venue, it's usually just best to follow whatever rules they have. If you don't like them, don't patronize the venue. With as many places as there are in sl, clubs are not in short supply. There are plenty of places I wouldn't go based on their rules alone. Doesn't bother me a bit. If I'm too short, not the right gender, not in whatever attire they prefer, or whatever else, then I just don't go. I'll never understand why people think they ought to be able to dictate the rules for something they don't even pay for. I don't really include tips and donations in that paying for thing, either. Since they're barely a drop in the bucket, though wonderful when offered. Sucks to not be able to go somewhere when you really want to, but that's hardly any different in rl. Don't see much point in complaining about restrictions when they are everywhere in our lives, lol. *yous and whatnots, all generally speaking, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: People are welcome to invent any scale they choose, that is one of the many bonusses of this virtual world. I once did visit a sim where my 5'7 avatar was the size of an ant, walking next to giant spoons and forks! (Greenies was the sim, maybe some here were familiar) I know, completely off topic, but, I loved that sim. Have quite fond memories of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Tari Landar wrote: I know, completely off topic, but, I loved that sim. Have quite fond memories of it. Not off topic at all, for it proves my point. I am glad that so many enjoyed the place. It was a wonderful sim, but no-one during my visit there accused me (or you, I hope) of being an insect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Syo Emerald wrote: Ever noticed that SL is in general not messured like RL? My avatars high would be tall for a RL woman, but it doesn't feel tall inside SL. Not compared to buildings, furniture or other avatars. And thats why I picked this size, because it feels normal. How should I benefit from chosing my RL high, when it doesn't feel the same in SL? (Sure, this rule is stupid...but I don't feel sorry for people getting ejected because of that, because I know a wide range of people posting on this forum has nothing against other rules, who also discriminate avatars. People are welcome to invent any scale they choose, that is one of the many bonusses of this virtual world. I once did visit a sim where my 5'7 avatar was the size of an ant, walking next to giant spoons and forks! (Greenies was the sim, maybe some here were familiar) I don't really mind which scale people choose to apply to themselves or what they build, but to pretend that these scales are universal or to claim that there are rules regarding size is provably false. To complain when people choose to deviate from these 'bent' rules of scale is ridiculous even more so, since the users who employ these altered scales themselves are deviating from reality to begin! One meter = one meter, regardless how else things appear in each users view. the ones i have mostly seen have something to stand next to..and if you are shorter than this thing.. it's considered being to short for their place.. a lot think that avatar height has everything to do with being a child avatar..when LL see's it as really not even the large part of it.. some just don't feel like wasting time and decide toplay it so safe that they miss out on those that are not child avatars.. really it's their loss if they are hoping to make money here..because throwing money in the street i never seen as something that is good for making it.. the fact is..some just don't take the time to really look into it..it's just much easier to set up a silly rule and hope for the best i guess hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Yeah, if the sim owner has a fetish for tall, cigarette-smoking elderly ladies with silver hair and vericose veins, that owner gets to exclude everybody else from the sim. Where it gets to be a problem, I think, is for such exclusive venues to be listed in the Destination Guide. Personally, I think anything listed in the DG needs to be open and welcoming to avatars of all appearances. Or if not that, then they should have to follow some very strict rules about how they handle avatars they wish to exclude (including at the very least a carefully worded standard notice in every supported viewer language) to make sure that no newcomer can ever be made to feel unwelcome by a DG venue itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Convair Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 The sim owners have no clue how to define what a "child avatar" is. (In some cases it is surely not so easy and sometimes even a matter personal view) So they look for something easy that they and even the most stupid employee can handle without thinking or judging. Thats the height. Not every sim is for everyone - thats sl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Ceka Cianci wrote: a lot think that avatar height has everything to do with being a child avatar..when LL see's it as really not even the large part of it.. Of course, but this is as nonsensical as collecting shoe sizes. There is no single attribute that defines a mature adult (even with age, maturity varies), and to pretend there is only further proves how arbitrary of a distinction it is. People who would apply rules so hastily deserve much criticism! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Tari Landar wrote: Teagan Tobias wrote: Well, one thing, I guess its good that there are clubs in SL that are making so much money that they can make rules like this. For some club owners it's not about money. Actually, for most it isn't. Ask anyone who has actually owned a club for any sustainable period(or even not). Profit really doesn't play a role since the majority of expenses are out of their own pockets. They have the club for others' enjoyment, not just their own. Even if ll didn't say they get to choose to make whatever rules they want, I would think they should. Staying within tos. They are, after all, paying for our entertainment. Unless you want to foot the bill of the venue, it's usually just best to follow whatever rules they have. If you don't like them, don't patronize the venue. With as many places as there are in sl, clubs are not in short supply. There are plenty of places I wouldn't go based on their rules alone. Doesn't bother me a bit. If I'm too short, not the right gender, not in whatever attire they prefer, or whatever else, then I just don't go. I'll never understand why people think they ought to be able to dictate the rules for something they don't even pay for. I don't really include tips and donations in that paying for thing, either. Since they're barely a drop in the bucket, though wonderful when offered. Sucks to not be able to go somewhere when you really want to, but that's hardly any different in rl. Don't see much point in complaining about restrictions when they are everywhere in our lives, lol. *yous and whatnots, all generally speaking, of course that's very true.. i always respect other peoples houses i go into in RL and the rules they have in it.. to me it's no different in here.. thier house their rules.. we can choose to stay and follow them or leave and enjoy our freedom in a place that we feel more free .. we have to respect thier fredom as well if we expect it to exist in here..otherwise it's just greedy wanting everyoen to live by our set of rules in theri house.. ETA: sorry ..i am still working on my Ipad skills hehehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: a lot think that avatar height has everything to do with being a child avatar..when LL see's it as really not even the large part of it.. Of course, but this is as nonsensical as collecting shoe sizes. There is no single attribute that defines a mature adult (even with age, maturity varies), and to pretend there is only further proves how arbitrary of a distinction it is. People who would apply rules so hastily deserve much criticism! well it's just as foolish as goreans only wanting human avatars in their sims.. which really is not foolish..it's how they want their sim ran... i'm not defining what a child avatar is here.. and mine is around 5'6" if i remember right.. and looks nothing at all like a child avatar.. but i'm not gonna stand around arguing with someone because i don't like their rule.. someone with a rule like that has obviously not put much thought into it and just wants to play it so safe that they put up something that they feel is a sure thing to keep them out.. when really you could have one walk in that is 6'10 meeting up with someone that is 8' in my eyes it's only silly when they take it outside their land and try to enforce it.. what they do in their land..that gets respected and i just move on if i don't fit in.. it's all you can really do..unless we feel like wasting time on them arguing about what a child avatar really is and getting nowhere.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Teagan Tobias wrote: Well, one thing, I guess its good that there are clubs in SL that are making so much money that they can make rules like this. I assure you that very few, if any, clubs in SL make money. On the contrary they are money pits for the owner. So whether a single individual is there or not, even if you regularly tip venues the average tip of a few lindens, makes no difference compared to the huge costs of running a club. While I agree that height alone is not what determines if an avatar is a child or teen, like it or not a large number of people in SL believe it to be. You'd be surprised how many people will IM the staff or owner complaining about this kind of avatar or another, such as furries, and the number of people that won't complain but just leave. The truth is that most clubs that ban certain avatars do so because the majority of their patrons want it that way or the avatar is out of place for theme or atmosphere there. Short people aren't the only ones to be discriminated against. Furries and other non human avatars see it every day and in more places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio09 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Recently when I was creating my avi I was having difficulties because I was trying to keep her height at 5'7" (my RL height) and it kept changing. I finally realized it depended on what shoes she was wearing. So if your avi is just a little short of the required height for some venue just change to some shoes with thicker soles and/or higher heels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrie Juran Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Qie Niangao wrote: <snip> Where it gets to be a problem, I think, is for such exclusive venues to be listed in the Destination Guide. Personally, I think anything listed in the DG needs to be open and welcoming to avatars of all appearances. Or if not that, then they should have to follow some very strict rules about how they handle avatars they wish to exclude (including at the very least a carefully worded standard notice in every supported viewer language) to make sure that no newcomer can ever be made to feel unwelcome by a DG venue itself. You make a good point here. I can see where a club for furries only or a playground for child Ava's or a place for one eyed cyclops's with tentacles only could be a legitimate thing to promote. But it needs to be done carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Ceka Cianci wrote: well it's just as foolish as goreans only wanting human avatars in their sims.. just wants to play it so safe that they put up something that they feel is a sure thing to keep them out.. I kind of see what you're saying (and obviously I agree that sim owners can invent pretty much any rule they choose to enforce), but I also disagree with this particular part. Perhaps I am misreading your comment, so I only seek to elaborate on my position rather than attempt to prove you 'wrong' - it is a subjective difference. The difference between this kind of rule between 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' is different to choosing the type of avatar who visits a sim in two fundamental ways:- 1. In the case of roleplay or other visitor selection choices that a sim owner makes, judging an avatar's age solely by their height (especially their scripted height) is impossible. In your example above (the non-furry rules some sims employ), the avatar being rejected is deliberately choosing to have a furry appearance. In the case of historical sims, again, the avatar being rejected is choosing to wear out-of-period clothing, and in sci-fi sims, they are knowingly wearing outfits or avatars unlikely to be found in space. They are choosing, and deiberately identifying themselves as someone who does not comply to the expectations of the sim owners (however accidental this may be). Of course, people can choose to be child avatars also, but those who are judged on their height are often told that they are child avatars, when they would not define themselves as such, and would instead state that they're not child avatars (they are choosing only to be of average human height, or 'shorter than average SL avatar height'). This denial of the initial judgement is (at least according to this OP's tale, and I'm sure many others) is rarely enough to persuade those with moderation rights (or scripts) that they are not choosing to look like a child avatar; they are being mistaken for a child avatar. (1a. To dilute this argument further, non-human avatars such as quadrapedal avatars can also be mistaken (mostly via script) as being under-height, and ejected. Myself, I don't know where the recent trend of mesh 'Petites' fall on the maturity grid, but I doubt most of them would appreciate being considered child avatars simply because they are small.) 2. There is often the implication that the breaking of this 'rule' is not only one limited to a particular sim, but that the avatar being mistaken for a child avatar is somehow doing something prohibited by LL (as in, against the ToS), when this is not the case. Misunderstandings seem (again, mostly from reading this forum) seem to arise because the moderators of the types of sims that judge avatar age by their height genuinely believe that the short adult avatar is trying to engage in the types of activity that are banned under the ToS. As an adult avatar that is only average height for a human, this profiling of a users intentions based solely on their height is quite clearly inaccurate, and potentially offensive. Ceka Cianci wrote: it's all you can really do..unless we feel like wasting time on them arguing about what a child avatar really is and getting nowhere.. This, however, is at least one point in your post that I definitely agree with. As I say, I think a casual laughing off (and maybe choosing not to spend their L$ or their time at these locations) is the best way to deal with it. I do think ridiculing those with such bizarre understanding of human physiology helps to alleviate the annoyance of being falsely accused of being something that you're not, but arguing with brick walls is not a good way for anyone to spend their time. Hope that helps to clarify my perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Freya Mokusei wrote: Ceka Cianci wrote: well it's just as foolish as goreans only wanting human avatars in their sims.. just wants to play it so safe that they put up something that they feel is a sure thing to keep them out.. I kind of see what you're saying (and obviously I agree that sim owners can invent pretty much any rule they choose to enforce), but I also disagree with this particular part. Perhaps I am misreading your comment, so I only seek to elaborate on my position rather than attempt to prove you 'wrong' - it is a subjective difference. The difference between this kind of rule between 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' is different to choosing the type of avatar who visits a sim in two fundamental ways:- 1. In the case of roleplay or other visitor selection choices that a sim owner makes, judging an avatar's age solely by their height (especially their scripted height) is impossible. In your example above (the non-furry rules some sims employ), the avatar being rejected is deliberately choosing to have a furry appearance. In the case of historical sims, again, the avatar being rejected is choosing to wear out-of-period clothing, and in sci-fi sims, they are knowingly wearing outfits or avatars unlikely to be found in space. They are choosing, and deiberately identifying themselves as someone who does not comply to the expectations of the sim owners (however accidental this may be). Of course, people can choose to be child avatars also, but those who are judged on their height are often told that they are child avatars, when they would not define themselves as such, and would instead state that they're not child avatars (they are choosing only to be of average human height, or 'shorter than average SL avatar height'). This denial of the initial judgement is (at least according to this OP's tale, and I'm sure many others) is rarely enough to persuade those with moderation rights (or scripts) that they are not choosing to look like a child avatar; they are being mistaken for a child avatar. (1a. To dilute this argument further, non-human avatars such as quadrapedal avatars can also be mistaken (mostly via script) as being under-height, and ejected. Myself, I don't know where the recent trend of mesh 'Petites' fall on the maturity grid, but I doubt most of them would appreciate being considered child avatars simply because they are small.) 2. There is often the implication that the breaking of this 'rule' is not only one limited to a particular sim, but that the avatar being mistaken for a child avatar is somehow doing something prohibited by LL (as in, against the ToS), when this is not the case. Misunderstandings seem (again, mostly from reading this forum) seem to arise because the moderators of the types of sims that judge avatar age by their height genuinely believe that the short adult avatar is trying to engage in the types of activity that are banned under the ToS. As an adult avatar that is only average height for a human, this profiling of a users intentions based solely on their height is quite clearly inaccurate, and potentially offensive. Ceka Cianci wrote: it's all you can really do..unless we feel like wasting time on them arguing about what a child avatar really is and getting nowhere.. This, however, is at least one point in your post that I definitely agree with. As I say, I think a casual laughing off (and maybe choosing not to spend their L$ or their time at these locations) is the best way to deal with it. I do think ridiculing those with such bizarre understanding of human physiology helps to alleviate the annoyance of being falsely accused of being something that you're not, but arguing with brick walls is not a good way for anyone to spend their time. Hope that helps to clarify my perspective. i basically went on to say that it wasn't really foolish at all of a gorean sim wanting thier sim ran the way they want it ran.. my point was about them wanting their sim ran the way they wanted their sim ran is all.. be it for a real good reason or a shallow one.. i understand what you are saying.. i used to be in a lot of the child avatar threads when the whole zindra thing was going on.. size does nto make a child avatar..there is a whole lot more to that. these kinds of rules are just a byproduct of those days really..a lot of them anyways.. i just feel that this world is always going to have it's little civil wars.. there are so many different kinds of them.. i guess my thing was..we could spend our SL fighting them all or we could spend our time mapping some places that we can really enjoy ourselves.. that s their SL..and if they don't want us a part of it..there is plenty more to choose from that will welcome us with open arms.. because by the time the battle would be over..i wouldn't be going there anyways and they probably wouldn't let me in if i did follow their rule now..hehehehe i just think people should enjoy their escape and try to avoid those kind of day wrecker conflicts if they can.. they can really eat up your clock.. i know i spent my fair share of time getting wasted... now i just hold up the hand and say..oh look at that..you're out of time..bye bye.. hehehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Studio09 Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Back to the height thing. I installed Firestorm this morning and while editing my avatar noticed that my height was suddenly listed as over 6 ft. (I think it was 6.22 ft). The height slider was still set at 54, which made my height 5.73 ft when I created my avi using the SL viewer. I went back to my SL viewer and my avi was listed as 5.71 or so with the slider still at 54. Do other people have this same discrepancy between the 2 viewers for the same avi? I so which one is the correct height? If the SL viewer height is correct, could the owner of the club that requires avis to be 5'10" be using the Firestorm height scale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Neither indicates true avatar height. You need to measure your avatar using a prim to determine its true height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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