Farewell old viewers - 9 July

Perrie Juran · June 24, 2013

Ren Toxx wrote:

Melita Magic wrote: [...] It's strange to me that some of the newer viewers are outstripping the Lab who should have more resources (right?)

Indeed, but it's also only logical. The Lab usually concentrates on advancing the

core

technology of SL (mesh, multi-layers, materials, LSL functions, SSB, new kinds of layers such as tattoos, alphas, physics...) and, for almost virtually all of it, they have to make it work viewer-side

and

server-side; plus, the fact that they're

'the'

company, just as you observed, kinda forces them to be a bit more conservative regarding new functionality and how complex it might be for the end user.

TPVs, on the other hand, can afford to focus only on viewer-side improvements (because, with very few exceptions, it wouldn't matter what they come up with, if the SL servers won't comply with it), and because many -if not most- of them are somehow more directed at advanced users who want to go beyond the official viewer's basic functionality, they can allow themselves such things as

very

expanded preferences (many of which are, in fact, just more accessible and visually intuitive versions of debug settings also available in the official viewe), additional control panels, integrated AOs, meta-scripting, increased UI customization, etc.

Plus, of course, different minds always come up with different ideas :smileywink:

"Plus, of course, different minds always come up with different ideas"

To me, the difference seems to be LL is focused on "how can we make it look prettier." The TPV's are focused on "how can we make it easier to use."

I wonder how many departments at LL, when they need to do a department meeting, do it In World? That would be a real eye opener for them.

Suspiria Finucane · June 25, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

Orca Flotta · June 26, 2013

There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tec and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

Yes, I thought so myself after reading my bold statement myself. Don't ask me how it works but it's true. Singularity is based on 1.23, right? Still it shows mesh, supports SSB and will be ready for materials. And all that while still rendering much faster and crashing much less and keeping to the best, most user friendly UI, which was V1.

:heart: Singularity for me is the new Nicholaz. :heart:

Innula Zenovka · June 26, 2013

Suspiria Finucane wrote:

Orca Flotta wrote:

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

I don't know enough about making viewers to comment with any great authority, but I do read what the various viewer devs say, and I think that Cool VL and Singularity could both best be described as exercises in modifying V3 to work with the old UI, as opposed to trying to backport features to the old codebase (which is what Phoenix did) or adapting the V3 UI to look like the old one (Firestorm's Phoenix mod).

Perrie Juran · June 26, 2013

Innula Zenovka wrote:

Suspiria Finucane wrote:

Orca Flotta wrote:

And once again V1 viewers prove how much they are advanced over all the V2 and 3 stuff. :matte-motes-evil:

There's an oxymoron if ever I've heard one. Outdated tech back porting new tech and claiming to be advanced. Priceless!

I don't know enough about making viewers to comment with any great authority, but I do read what the various viewer devs say, and I think that Cool VL and Singularity could both best be described as exercises in modifying V3 to work with the old UI, as opposed to trying to backport features to the old codebase (which is what Phoenix did) or adapting the V3 UI to look like the old one (Firestorm's Phoenix mod).

I like to use the car and engine analogy to describe this.

Like the old Chevy 327 engine. You could get it in a pick up truck. You could get it in a Chevy Caprice. You could get it in a Corvette.

The car is your 'interface' for getting where you are going, but basically the engine was the same.

The TPV's as I understand it do some modifications to the engine but the engine block is still the same.

The big difference is the vehicle you are sitting in.

Czari Zenovka · June 26, 2013

Orca Flotta wrote:

:heart: Singularity for me is the new Nicholaz. :heart:

Ooooo, then I will LOVE Singularity. I was so upset when Nicholaz quit putting out new viewers. Have you tried CoolVL, Orca? I would be interested how it compares to Singularity.

Deej Kasshiki · June 26, 2013

Oh just give up Susperia. The marketplace has voted and most prefer to use a TPV rather than the Lab's craptastic offerings. Why do you deride choice?

Yeah, I know it was the Lab's original code that made TPVs possible. But, you always grossly minimize the amount of code that the TPV developers have returned to the Lab, and thus, the entire SL community. From fixing of longstanding bugs to complete features (like the mesh deformer or RLV) TPV developers have helped to advance the state of viewer technology in many substantive ways.

By your logic the entire auto industry should be beholden to Gottlieb Daimler and his original design and totally forget the contributions made by other companies to the advancement of automotive technologies since then.

Marigold Devin · June 28, 2013

:matte-motes-big-grin:

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Orca Flotta wrote:

:heart: Singularity for me is the new Nicholaz. :heart:

Ooooo, then I will LOVE Singularity. I was so upset when Nicholaz quit putting out new viewers.

Have you tried CoolVL, Orca? I would be interested how it compares to Singularity.

I'm defo gonna have to give both CoolVL and Singularity a whirl on this old boat when the time comes. It won't run Firestorm currently, but will run Phoenix and did run Imprudence last time I tried (which admittedly was a while ago). Laptop runs Firestorm well, but I don't know what will occur after 9th July.

Its all useful input anyhows.

And @ Perrie - I love your car analogy. :matte-motes-big-grin:

Aethelwine · June 28, 2013

The new Firestorm seems to be running better for me since the update today.

Marigold Devin · June 28, 2013

Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Oh just give up Susperia. The marketplace has voted and most prefer to use a TPV rather than the Lab's craptastic offerings. Why do you deride choice?

Yeah, I know it was the Lab's original code that made TPVs possible. But, you always grossly minimize the amount of code that the TPV developers have returned to the Lab, and thus, the entire SL community. From fixing of longstanding bugs to complete features (like the mesh deformer or RLV) TPV developers have helped to advance the state of viewer technology in many substantive ways.

By your logic the entire auto industry should be beholden to Gottlieb Daimler and his original design and totally forget the contributions made by other companies to the advancement of automotive technologies since then.

... and I want to add that even Linden Lab credit the TPVs for their input at the bottom of this recent blog article: http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Get-the-New-Materials-Viewer-Today/ba-p/2051927

A bit of mutual back-scratching and tolerance of others goes a long way in any world.

Marigold Devin · June 28, 2013

Aethelwine wrote:

The new Firestorm seems to be running better for me since the update today.

Thats good to know. Latest version on my laptop was not good, previous version on my laptop was fine, but unfortunately the desktop is what is at fault when I try to use Firestorm. Its old and a bit knackered.

Aethelwine · June 28, 2013

Marigold Devin wrote:

Aethelwine wrote:

The new Firestorm seems to be running better for me since the update today.

Thats good to know. Latest version on my laptop was not good, previous version on my laptop was fine, but unfortunately the desktop is what is at fault when I try to use Firestorm. Its old and a bit knackered.

it is worth a try...

Each to their own and everything but trying to find my way around the viewer1 based UIs is a pain for me. Firestorm's interface works for me i know where to find the buttons I want to press to do what i want.

Marigold Devin · June 28, 2013

Aethelwine wrote:

Marigold Devin wrote:

Aethelwine wrote:

The new Firestorm seems to be running better for me since the update today.

Thats good to know. Latest version on my laptop was not good, previous version on my laptop was fine, but unfortunately the desktop is what is at fault when I try to use Firestorm. Its old and a bit knackered.

it is worth a try...

Each to their own and everything but trying to find my way around the viewer1 based UIs is a pain for me. Firestorm's interface works for me i know where to find the buttons I want to press to do what i want.

Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, but I still sneak in on Phoenix 1.5.2.1185 and it remains my absolute favourite viewer of all times, in spite of not displaying mesh. That's the one that I know best of all, where the buttons are all where they should be and do what I want them to do when I press them. :matte-motes-big-grin:

I am a bit of a dinosaur, and I was never good with change (not good to admit to in a fast-paced internet world, I know), and would have been happy with clunky old 1.14 forever.

Ich bin ein Luddite !!!

Czari Zenovka · June 28, 2013

Marigold Devin wrote:

Shhhhhh, don't tell anyone, but I still sneak in on Phoenix 1.5.2.1185 and it remains my absolute favourite viewer of all times, in spite of not displaying mesh. That's the one that I know best of all, where the buttons are all where they should be and do what I want them to do when I press them. :matte-motes-big-grin:

I am a bit of a dinosaur, and I was never good with change (not good to admit to in a fast-paced internet world, I know), and would have been happy with clunky old 1.14 forever.

Ich bin ein Luddite !!!

Sounds perfectly normal to me. Of course I'm another Luddite and proud of it!! I'm currently using the same Phoenix as you. I'm used to seeing mesh as either huge marbles, bowling balls or tires, but once SSD goes into effect, seeing grey avatars will be a bummer.

Personally I think there have been way too many changes in this past year...at least for my taste.

Marigold Devin · June 28, 2013

I dunno, I quite like grey :matte-motes-inlove:

We'll have to play it by ear (or whatever's left of us from 9th July onwards)

Czari Zenovka · June 28, 2013

Marigold Devin wrote:

I dunno, I quite like grey :matte-motes-inlove:

We'll have to play it by ear (or whatever's left of us from 9th July onwards)

Luddite party on IRC July 9th!!! :matte-motes-wink:

Marigold Devin · June 30, 2013

Czari Zenovka wrote:

Marigold Devin wrote:

I dunno, I quite like grey :matte-motes-inlove:

We'll have to play it by ear (or whatever's left of us from 9th July onwards)

Luddite party on IRC July 9th!!! :matte-motes-wink:

Counting the days :matte-motes-big-grin-evil: Grey is the great leveller.

WADE1 Jya · June 30, 2013

Does this mean no more viewer 1 floating about soon? If so... yay! It would be nice if everyone in SL can finally see basic mesh at least... hopefully with standard out of the box viewers, not fiddling with all sorts of hidden settings.

I really dislike the current viewer fragmentation & disunity of the Second Life shared experience, too much variation where some see nothing, or see random artifacts, or others only see a very poor facsimile of the world :catsad:

TristanMercer · June 30, 2013

Not all V1 viewers are going. Singularity and CoolVL will still be around. It has to be getting harder and harder to keep hacking V1 code with this current code being released.

Sooner or later it will not even be feasible to keep backporting current code to old technology.

People will be up in arms come July 9th anyway. Most everyone knows that SSB is coming and yet people are still going to **bleep** up a storm about it.

/me gets ready for said date as he has the popcorn and popping oil all set to go.

Czari Zenovka · June 30, 2013

WADE1 Jya wrote:

Does this mean no more viewer 1 floating about soon? If so... yay! It would be nice if everyone in SL can finally see basic mesh at least... hopefully with standard out of the box viewers, not fiddling with all sorts of hidden settings.

I really dislike the current viewer fragmentation & disunity of the Second Life shared experience, too much variation where some see nothing, or see random artifacts, or others only see a very poor facsimile of the world :catsad:

There are V1 viewers that *do* see mesh as well as the other "upgrades" LL has added this past year. My understanding is that the UI is that of a V1 viewer with the code for the upgrades added...or something like that. :matte-motes-smile:

As soon as I discovered the Nicholaz viewer sometime in late 2007/early 2008, I have never used the official LL viewer. For the past number of years I have used Phoenix - in my case the one that does not render mesh due to the limitations of my PC - but there is a later Phoenix version that does see mesh, iirc.

There are many of us who do not like the V3 UI and are grateful that TPVs exist that offer the V1 UI to us. By the end of the day tomorrow I will have a PC that can see mesh, but I will still be using a V1 TPV. :matte-motes-big-grin:

Theresa Tennyson · June 30, 2013

Czari Zenovka wrote:

WADE1 Jya wrote:

Does this mean no more viewer 1 floating about soon? If so... yay! It would be nice if everyone in SL can finally see basic mesh at least... hopefully with standard out of the box viewers, not fiddling with all sorts of hidden settings.

I really dislike the current viewer fragmentation & disunity of the Second Life shared experience, too much variation where some see nothing, or see random artifacts, or others only see a very poor facsimile of the world :catsad:

There are V1 viewers that *do* see mesh as well as the other "upgrades" LL has added this past year. My understanding is that the UI is that of a V1 viewer with the code for the upgrades added...or something like that. :matte-motes-smile:

As soon as I discovered the Nicholaz viewer sometime in late 2007/early 2008, I have never used the official LL viewer. For the past number of years I have used Phoenix - in my case the one that does not render mesh due to the limitations of my PC - but there is a later Phoenix version that does see mesh, iirc.

There are many of us who do not like the V3 UI and are grateful that TPVs exist that offer the V1 UI to us. By the end of the day tomorrow I will have a PC that can see mesh, but I will still be using a V1 TPV. :matte-motes-big-grin:

Here's the best analogy I can make - in the early Sixties just before Studebaker went out of the car business they came out with a beautiful little sports car called the Avanti that only lasted a couple of years because the company itself wasn't able to continue.

A former Studebaker dealer was able to buy up the old production line and parts for the Avanti shortly afterwards and camem out with the Avanti II, which was basically the same car but certain changes had to be made - for instance they quiclly ran out of Studebaker engines so Avanti II's had Chevrolet engines instead. The Avanti II stayed in production for quite a few years but gradually needed to make more and more changes to the internals due to supply issues and new regulations so in its last years it was basically a different car that just looked more-or-less like the origiinal.

Viewer 1.23.5 is basically the Studebaker Avanti; Singularity and CoolViewer are Avanti II's. They look the same to the observer and still share some parts but a mechanic would find very different things under the hood.

Firestorm's Phoenix mode is closer to the Volkswagen New Beetle, which was meant to remind people of the original Beetle but was really a completely different car built on a very different mechanical structure.

Czari Zenovka · June 30, 2013

Theresa Tennyson wrote: