what is the difference between a mesh and a regular shirt

[angiewolf]

is it anything signifigant? Is it a difference worth paying for? (this question occured to me as i was writing my last question. Didnt know how to work it in without making the other question too complicated.

[Pussycat Catnap]

See my post in your other thread about items popping through.

It is very worth it to make yourself able to wear mesh.

The difference is like the difference betweein getting a can of spray paint and painting colors on yourself, then going outside, versus going into your wardrobe and finding a nice blouse to wear...

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

A regular shirt is a layer that is part of your avatar.  Mesh is a type of prim that is attached to your avatar.  There are pros and cons for both.

Mesh doesn't fit everyone and can not be resized if it is rigged so it comes in sizes, mostly what they call 'standard' sizes that are not really standard at all. You have to wear an alpha layer which makes part of your avatar disappear, and maybe even change your shape to fit the mesh. Some people, myself included, do not want to change our shape to fit some designers idea of what shape an avatar should be.  We like individuality.  If you don't change your shape, then sometimes mesh won't fit your avatar.  So never buy mesh without trying on a demo first.

For the most part mesh styles are a lot more like RL conservative clothing.  If that is the type of clothing you like to wear then mesh is your ticket  If you like wearing more fantasy type clothing or styles you wouldn't be able to wear in RL then you aren't going to find a lot of mesh to suit you style wise.

System clothing (what you refer to as regular) always fits you avatar since it becomes a layer on it.  It comes in a much wider variety of styles and colors than mesh does, since mesh is relatively new.  It also generally a lot more detailed in the trims and decorations.  System clothing may come with sculpted or flexi prims or non rigged mesh parts such as cuffs, collars, belts sleeves etc, to make it look more 3D. The disadvantage of system clothing is that it is always tight fitting.  So mesh is better for loose fitting looks.

Even people that love mesh still wear system clothes.  System clothing won't become obsolete for a  very long time if at all..  If you wear a mesh jacket it is hard to find a mesh shirt or sometimes even a skirt that you can wear under it without sticking through.  It is almost impossible to find underwear to fit under mesh clothes.  So people wear combinations of mesh and system clothing.

Some people are going say in this thread or other threads that mesh is better than sliced bread because it fits their style and tastes or they just like to jump on every band wagon when something new comes along.  Others are going to tell you they never wear it due to the fit problems and conservative styles.  Then there are others like myself that wear both either one at a time or in combination because we think of mesh as an option and not necessarily suitable to all styles of clothing or every situation..  My advice is to try mesh demos on and make up your own mind if mesh is right for you.

One final thing, is that not everyone can see mesh clothing because their older viewer doesn't render it properly or their computers don't or sometimes both.  Last I heard that was about 20 percent of the population.  Even those with good computers and the newest viewers sometimes can't see it right either due to a rendering glitch or their internet connection. People that can't see mesh are going to see you as wearing just lumps. If you wear alpha layers parts of your avatar will be gone.  You may also have parts of your body show as naked,  So always wear underwear with mesh clothing on G sims.

[Jade Nova]

It really depends on your style and your avatar shape. If your avatar shape has 0 body fat and 0 belly size, you will have no problem finding mesh sizes (standard or not) that fit totally fine. My avatar has body fat of about 8 or so, and a belly size of 4-5 which I sometimes have to adjust for mesh clothing that is tigher.

Mesh is great because it is rigged to your avatar and conforms to certain body sliders. It can be loose and look realistic, moving with your avatar seamlessly in a way that multiple prim attachments can't. Most designers follow standard sizes so that if you are a size medium in one mesh shirt, you will be a size medium in every other mesh shirt.

Mesh can also be a huge pain in the ass because while it does conform to certain body sliders, it completely ignores others (such as body fat, breast size, muscle, etc). Standard sizes are supposed to make it easier to find the right size, but I've noticed that while most major designers do follow them, a lot of independent ones do not. My av is a small by standard sizes, but she's been able to wear an XXS and even a large from some stores which makes no sense at all. It is also extremely difficult to layer it with other mesh clothing since it's not completely skin-tight. It almost always pokes through when wearing it with other mesh that overlaps it in any way, and the only way to fix it is to wear a larger size in the piece that goes over the other, which can usually result in a bit of bulk. Also, since mesh is basically replacing part of the body (since it usually requires an alpha layer to look right), it can often change the way your shape looks, which can be a good or a bad thing. My avatar has thick but proportionate legs, but a lot of skinny jeans have really skinny legs and it makes my avatar look frumpy. It's also rare to find mesh pants that you can wear boots over them with unless the designer made different lengths for different length boots.

System clothing is great because it always conforms to your avatars shape, since it is essentially painted on clothing. It can be worn under mesh clothing, and it's easy to layer with. You can wear boots with the pants no problem which is nice for me since I love boots.

System clothing sometimes sucks because it is always skin tight (unless you mess with the looseness sliders, and even then they usually make the garment look like complete crap).

The one thing I would say mesh is definitely worth it for is skirts and dresses, as the skirt prim that's worn between the legs with system pants doesn't always match the texture up right and is usually almost invisible from behind. Plus in a lot of poses it seems to disappear completely depending on which body part it's attached to. System skirts just make your avatar have a gigantic ass. Mesh skirts don't really mess with your body proportions and they move naturally with your avatar. There are still a lot of great system/prim skirt combinations out there that are better than the norm so don't completely rule them out.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to both, really. I prefer mesh for some things while I prefer system clothing for others. Redgrave has a pair of pants out that she calls Liquid Mesh (LQM), which conform to even more body sliders than mesh usually does (including body fat, leg muscle, knee angle, butt size, etc) and they have the best pants/lower body shape I've seen on the grid. I just wish I could wear my boots with them (sadly they poke through since the ankle is not skin tight). I would keep an eye out in her store though for if she comes out with more of this liquid mesh clothing because the concept is pretty awesome and so far I'm in love with the jeans.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I bought a pair of those jeans today and they are awesome.  It is like she figured out how to build a deformer into her mesh.  They fit my avatar perfectly without distorting the shape at all. This is how mesh is supposed to be.

[Rhys Goode]

I agree totally that well made mesh cothing *can* look much better than system clothes.  

But from my experience, 90% of the dresses and skirts I've seen are not suitable for much else other than standing around looking pretty in a static pose, and then only if you are careful about the camera angle.  Yes, standard sizes help a bit, but you almost always need an alpha mask to keep from poking through.  Alpha masks work great for shoes and pants, not so well for a close fitting dress if you want to go dancing.

So, an important warning about mesh:  Try the free demo.  And try the demo in the context you will use the clothing.  I like to dance in SSL, so I always try the demo and see how it looks when I am moving into "odd" positions.  Try bending over, and sitting down.  I have a couple of versions of my avatar shape, with the key sliders set to a  "standard size", and a few outfits where I have customized the shape even more.  But for me, most mesh clothing fails the movement test.

The ability to try on a demo is one of the big advantages of mesh, in my opinion, I've seen lots of system clothing, and sculptie clothing that looks great on the box, looks great on me in the right static pose, but looks like hell when I start to move. Designer skill is a very important factor, whether you are looking at system clothes, sculptie clothes, or mesh clothes.  

[Qie Niangao]

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Is it a difference worth paying for?

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Sometimes, but be careful. There are some quite crazy prices being charged for run-of-the-mill Mesh clothing.

Also, it's worth noting that all current Mesh items (and sculpties, and prims) are going to look like absolute crap compared to the exact same forms with good normalmaps and specularmaps, once those are available. So it's kind of daft to pay a premium for current Mesh just because it's newer, when we know these items will be obsolete in a few months.

Yes, obsolete. As in "too outdated to clutter one's Inventory" obsolete.

[Claireschen Hesten]

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Jade Glazner wrote:

Redgrave has a pair of pants out that she calls Liquid Mesh (LQM), which conform to even more body sliders than mesh usually does (including body fat, leg muscle, knee angle, butt size, etc) and they have the best pants/lower body shape I've seen on the grid. I just wish I could wear my boots with them (sadly they poke through since the ankle is not skin tight). I would keep an eye out in her store though for if she comes out with more of this liquid mesh clothing because the concept is pretty awesome and so far I'm in love with the jeans.

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i saw those on the marketplace when i saw the description i thought wow so glad i tried a demo though because i was really disappointed judging by the amount of skin not covered by the alpha i had clipping through the waist on them is meant for a twig and my small amount of belly fat was over hanging 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

Even people that love mesh still wear system clothes.  System clothing won't become obsolete for a  very long time if at all..  If you wear a mesh jacket it is hard to find a mesh shirt or sometimes even a skirt that you can wear under it without sticking through.  It is almost impossible to find underwear to fit under mesh clothes.  So people wear combinations of mesh and system clothing.

One final thing, is that not everyone can see mesh clothing because their older viewer doesn't render it properly or their computers don't or sometimes both. 

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This number is down to about 3.25% now, as posted on the nwn blog I believe. At this point, essentially, everyone can see mesh. The remaining 3.25%, statistically: no longer matter. If that's someone reading this, sorry, but you're now a numerical non-factor.

I wear mesh skirts and shirts under mesh blouses and jackets all the time. Easy to find. I've even got one bikini that works as underwear to wear under if so desired.

And the standard sizes go up all the way into the 'obese' range - so the note about belly size and body fat is just from someone who has not bothered to look.

 If you've worked in 3D art, you will know that the coming deformer based clothing is going to look MUCH WORSE than what we have now... the simple question is: when deforming, what about the buttons. If you know 3D art enough to know what that means, you'll quickly see its a mathematical impossibility to solve the issue, and deformer clothing is going to be a mess.

- So the stuff now is as good as it will get 'dimensionally'. Texture mapping might improve if they add things for that... but that's going to effect everything.

I regularly buy mesh in the 100-200L range for an item. Only a few places are expensive, and of those, only one: coldLogic, lives up to its price.

 People who are wearing small from one shop and large from another may not have taken the time to learn which dials are effected by mesh - this information has been documented in many places. My blog among them. Look at the mesh articles I have on the top right side links list, everyone one needs to know is in those or linked from them.

- In my other post in the other question this person asked, I also covered that, as well as the reason many shops do not fit 'Standard Sizes' - I did everything but name the person who is pushing the other size system... They do good work, but their failure to document their numbers means their templates need to be approached with caution (that said, of the major templae makers - each has a different level of skill in rigging, and this person is not good with rigging leg bends. The largest standard sizes template maker though, does that perfectly).

 

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

Some people are going say in this thread or other threads that mesh is better than sliced bread because it fits their style and tastes or they just like to jump on every band wagon when something new comes along.  Others are going to tell you they never wear it due to the fit problems and conservative styles.  Then there are others like myself that wear both either one at a time or in combination because we think of mesh as an option and not necessarily suitable to all styles of clothing or every situation..  My advice is to try mesh demos on and make up your own mind if mesh is right for you.

One final thing, is that not everyone can see mesh clothing because their older viewer doesn't render it properly or their computers don't or sometimes both.  Last I heard that was about 20 percent of the population.  Even those with good computers and the newest viewers sometimes can't see it right either due to a rendering glitch or their internet connection. People that can't see mesh are going to see you as wearing just lumps. If you wear alpha layers parts of your avatar will be gone.  You may also have parts of your body show as naked,  So always wear underwear with mesh clothing on G sims.

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This is the most balanced analysis of mesh clothing I've seen.

I'm one of the group that cannot see mesh and I'm actually finding it amusing.  (It doesn't take much to amuse me...lol.)  The first time I "saw" mesh worn was when one of my best friends said she had just purchased something new and wanted to show me.  This woman is always impeccably dressed, thus I was a bit confused when she arrived wearing pink boxes instead of shoes.  Before I had a chance to say anything, she said "Aren't my new feet beautiful?"  I'm looking at the boxes and thinking..."Ummmmm..."  I snapped a pic and sent it to her as I was now totally confused.  After looking at the pic she was horrified at how I saw her "beautiful feet" and it was then she said they were mesh.  Since then I've been taking photos of "This is how I see mesh."  My friend said I should start a Flickr feed with them...lol.

As for making sure all bits are covered, I know of one established, well-known jazz club that initially did not permit mesh because of their dress code and with mesh some patrons either could not see mesh or had mesh disabled to cut down on lag and were seeing some "naughty bits."  They have since revised this to mesh clothing must be properly worn, I'm assuming this has to do with alpha layers, to conform to their longstanding dress code.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

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Rhys Goode wrote:

 

Designer skill is a very important factor, whether you are looking at system clothes, sculptie clothes, or mesh clothes.  

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Excellent point!!!  I own some pieces of system clothing that are literally works of art and closely approximate 3D in appearance.  Granted it takes a very talented artist to produce that effect, but it is possible.

[Solar Legion]

Mesh is and will always be ... hit and miss.

I write this a a global reply to all here, though Catnip? Not everyone has the time or patience to redo an entire shape to fit "proper" proportion.

Sadly, even after geting some aid, I myself am in that category. To add to my frustrations, some of my best looking outfits do NOT fit a "proportionate" 6'2" male.

[Fantasy Eternal]

   Another problem with mesh is that some designers won't give you a list of the sizes they used. I've tried demos from three designers where I was using "standard sizes" (a term that should NOT have to be in quotes) and my body still poked through when moving. I liked the clothes so I contacted the designers to get help. Never received answers. Never bought the clothes either. I think a lot of the mesh designers do not realize how much customer support will be needed if there is going to be a widescale transition to mesh.