Phoebe Avro Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Some of you may have heard the news about LL implementing server side baking! ETA in aprox 2 months!http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Sunshine-Server_Side_AppearanceThis is going to break all current viewers!Phoenix Viewer it seems will not be updated, Firestorm will be!There are still a large number of SL residents that can't use V3 and not because they have old computers!I did hear figures of up to 20% loss of residents due to this and LL seem to think its acceptable!Thing is that possible 20% may be active spenders in sl even if 10% of them are thats a huge amount of customers!So what do people do that can't run V3? hey i hear people say they have to update well thats all good but that cost money and if they do then they may not have the money to pay into SL while they are paying off the cost of that new pc or upgrades! double edged sword!Only time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Laval Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I doubt that one in five SL residents can't run anything other than Phoenix. People are going to have to move to a different viewer from Phoenix and the vast majority will be able to find another viewer that works just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Orellana Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 The 20% will find one way or another to come back. Also I am sure TPVs like Cool VL among other's will find a way to make their viewer work properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Phoebe Avro wrote: Some of you may have heard the news about LL implementing server side baking! ETA in aprox 2 months! http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Project_Sunshine-Server_Side_Appearance This is going to break all current viewers! Phoenix Viewer it seems will not be updated, Firestorm will be! There are still a large number of SL residents that can't use V3 and not because they have old computers! I did hear figures of up to 20% loss of residents due to this and LL seem to think its acceptable! Thing is that possible 20% may be active spenders in sl even if 10% of them are thats a huge amount of customers! So what do people do that can't run V3? hey i hear people say they have to update well thats all good but that cost money and if they do then they may not have the money to pay into SL while they are paying off the cost of that new pc or upgrades! double edged sword! Only time will tell There is some info in this post. I'm not upset with the Phoenix/Firestorm devs and I expect online games and virtual worlds to be upgraded as technology improves. What I am *not* happy about is the number of major "improvements" *coughs slightly* LL has made in a relatively short time. In the past, if a fairly major new feature was added, residents had the chance to get used to it before something new came along, and we're talking features that didn't require major viewer upgrades and/or for some people PC upgrades. Related anecdote: Years ago when I played a popular MMORPG the game made a quantum leap in completely updating avatars and graphics. Many computers (even relatively new ones) had to be upgraded to even sign into the game. One night my guild leader said in guild chat, "I just had to spend over $100.00 on my PC for a $30.00 game." The $30.00 to which she was referring was the upgrade required to use the new features. In the case of SL - paying to be in world is all across the board; some people choose to spend very little if anything in SL, others have a Premium account and may purchase more than the 512 sqm of land included resulting in tier payments, still others spend a lot of money shopping, not to mention the merchants from those whose SL income covers in world expenses to RL income. I'm not sure if my sales will suffer or not but I do think this may cut off a certain % of residents who cannot, for whatever reason, upgrade their PCs. However, Rod seems to be catering to the population demographics that are more "hard core" in PC use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 these changes may make V3 work better and use less memory, therefore enabling more people to use SL.Life isn't all doom and gloom. Not one single change to SL has killed it. Yet every change brings these predictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Littlething Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Don't be an alarmist. If people cannot run V3, they'll simply update. NO ONE has ever quit SL over a viewer, especially if they're an active SLer and they actually log in to have fun. I've been here long enough to see people moan over changes when LL introduced Windlight, SL Voice, Shadows.. etc! And yet, everything is still just fine, with or without those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebe Avro Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 My post was not 'alarmist' it was a valid topic for discusion and since LL have not anounced this in the LL blog many people will not even of heard about it! A few months back the figure of 25% was quoted for people that can't even see mesh in sl, so the figure of 20% I quoted in my OP may be be under estimated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Juicy Littlething wrote: Don't be an alarmist. If people cannot run V3, they'll simply update. NO ONE has ever quit SL over a viewer, especially if they're an active SLer and they actually log in to have fun. I've been here long enough to see people moan over changes when LL introduced Windlight, SL Voice, Shadows.. etc! And yet, everything is still just fine, with or without those people. And there are those people who would dearly LOVE to upgrade their PC but due to various reasons...generally financial, are unable to. Walking a mile in another's shoes may be a good exercise for some posters I've seen make these blithe statements over the last year. Kind of a "Let them eat cake" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: these changes may make V3 work better and use less memory, therefore enabling more people to use SL.Life isn't all doom and gloom. Not one single change to SL has killed it. Yet every change brings these predictions. No, changes haven't killed SL, but the population is decreasing and land is being sold off/abandoned more quickly than previous. You might find this thread over in General of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc DeSantis Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 You said "I did hear figures of up to 20% loss of residents due to this.." - where exactly was this? Care to quote the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Czari Zenovka wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: these changes may make V3 work better and use less memory, therefore enabling more people to use SL.Life isn't all doom and gloom. Not one single change to SL has killed it. Yet every change brings these predictions. No, changes haven't killed SL, but the population is decreasing and land is being sold off/abandoned more quickly than previous. You might find this thread over in General of interest. there are currently, at this moment, right now, 52,000 users online.. ONLINE. on a Monday night in December a week before Christmas. I keep hearing about the population decrease but there are no figures to back it up. SL has and will weather all of the death threads and worry worts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couldbe Yue Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The last figure I heard for phoenix logins was around 30% and that was a few months ago. Of course a percentage of those logins have the same human behind them and apparently not even LL knows the absolute number of individual peeps behind those logins. I don't think ragequit! will be the issue here but for people who haven't moved because they saw no reason to and are detaching themselves from sl anyway, it could be the last straw. If we're lucky people will either move to the other phoenix like v1 UI tpv's or will upgrade to Firestorm or the others. It's quite possible that some people won't be able to run anything but phoenix but I gather that the vast majority of those on older hardware should be able to move to one of the others without too much grief - the only problem will be that they may lose some features they had in phoenix. We'll find out in around 2 months when it happens I suppose. The only good thing about people being less engaged with sl as the years have gone on is that the howls in the forums and groups should be pretty muted this time round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 The firestorm team said many moons ago they would no longer be doing any updates to Phoenix.. if that wasn't enough reason to switch to a different viewer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couldbe Yue Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I still use phoenix and will continue to use it until it finally gives up the ghost. I don't want to have to spend time downloading, configuring and then testing each of the viewers on offer until I absolutely have to. I have better things to do with my time and I'll think you'll find that most people who haven't switched yet (barring those with the true hardware issues who can't get anything else to work) feel the same. SL is an entertainment platform, not some kind of torture chamber where you have to spend most of your time jigging around with stuff that should be irrelevant to the entertainment you seek. It's bad enough that people have to be more technically adept than should need to be just to get around SLs broken features and technical limitations, without making them also go shopping for a new viewer with all the learning curve that brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 there is a way to have Firestorm look and run 99.9% just like Phoenix. you can find the instructions HERE. Its and easy thing to do and it looks awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Czari Zenovka wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: these changes may make V3 work better and use less memory, therefore enabling more people to use SL.Life isn't all doom and gloom. Not one single change to SL has killed it. Yet every change brings these predictions. No, changes haven't killed SL, but the population is decreasing and land is being sold off/abandoned more quickly than previous. You might find this thread over in General of interest. there are currently, at this moment, right now, 52,000 users online.. ONLINE. on a Monday night in December a week before Christmas. I keep hearing about the population decrease but there are no figures to back it up. SL has and will weather all of the death threads and worry worts. I only linked to that thread because a month ago Porky accused me of being a "doom and gloom" type for an opinion I posted on the merchant forums - the main points of which are posted within that thread. I was not at all predicting the demise of SL, but rather why CTL hasn't been responding to any of our questions on the Merchant Forums. Porky apparerently misinterpreted my intent and came down on me pretty hard. Therefore, I find it both confusing and amusing to see Porky do a 180 degree turn on this issue, which I called him on. Thought you might like to see one of the "popular" merchants with that opinion, which btw, is NOT mine. I have never predicted the demise of SL. But you might want to clue Porky in to what you just posted to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czari Zenovka Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Couldbe Yue wrote: I don't think ragequit! will be the issue here but for people who haven't moved because they saw no reason to and are detaching themselves from sl anyway, it could be the last straw. If we're lucky people will either move to the other phoenix like v1 UI tpv's or will upgrade to Firestorm or the others. It's quite possible that some people won't be able to run anything but phoenix but I gather that the vast majority of those on older hardware should be able to move to one of the others without too much grief - the only problem will be that they may lose some features they had in phoenix. (Emphasis mine.) I won't be ragequitting, but the decision for server side avatar baking, combined with my having a PC that will not run any v3 viewers and the fact that I simply cannot purchase a new PC at this time in essence pretty much closes the doors to SL for me. Having been an active resident and merchant for 5 1/2 years, this saddens me a great deal. What saddens me even more, though, is the complete lack of empathy on the forums for another human being. I purposely do not share much of my RL situation on these forums and have taken quite a bit of heat this past year to the point of being told if I can't afford a PC that runs DD or can see mesh, I should "find a new hobby." If a time comes in your (collective "your" not you, Couldbe) life when you become ill, thus being unable to work and have to "live" on the pittance the US calls "disability income" which basically pays my rent, then you might finally understand. If I did not have family members who are amazing, I'm not sure how I would survive. "But you have a PC, so you must not be that bad off." WRONG! I purchased my current PC when I was working and kept it updated. Hard to do on $800.00/mo. "If you have an internet connection, then you obviously have enough money for a PC." WRONG. A family member, knowing how important my PC is to my having any type of personal contact, pays for my internet connection. SL has been my lifeline to any type of social life, or life at all for that matter. I don't expect nor want pity, but these are the facts. Perhaps now some of you will understand how hurtful your words to me to "just buy a new PC" have been. Or maybe not. I truly think some forumites have egos too large to permit empathy if it doesn't affect them directly. But at least Medhue, Gadget, Porky, and apparently Drake will be happy to not have to see my Luddite presence here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couldbe Yue Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Czari Zenovka wrote: But at least Medhue, Gadget, Porky, and apparently Drake will be happy to not have to see my Luddite presence here. you're not going anywhere yet lovey. can you pc stand an upgrade or do you need a whole new box? I'm not geeky enough to get the technicalities of it all but I think you're missing this SSE (?) function on one of your bits of hardware (I have a friend who builds my pc around what graphics card I need so the rest of it is an unfathomable mystery to me). Drop me a line with your system specs and I'll go over to slu and ask the anoraks there what they suggest and then we'll see what your options are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 For what it's worth, I believe that the only redeeming value that SL has ever had is to provide the ability for people to earn an income. There are still people here who are living success stories from all walks of life with no prior experience in tech, graphics, programming, CG and business who have been able to start a business and that is the beauty of SL to me. It has no real practical value in education, or corporate business or as research, or even as a prototyping applications these days. It has social value, but I can't lay that at the feet of SL, any place (including RL) that has a handful of people will develop "community", that's a people thing, not a virtual world thing. My real gripe is that greed oozes from LL in terms of over monetization (no secret there by now) and sucking far more from the "economy" than is their fair share in "your world". As we decline and slowly as SL changes, it contributes to further harming the opportunity to create incomes. Whether it's greed or the single feature that would have saved SL at one point (fix the bugs, the singular most asked request of all), it all points to a lack of desire to connect with the customers and more to chase down that elusive public offering. LL is about millions and billions or bust. I look at a succession of moves that all contribute to harming the business environment for everyone by LL as a loss. I'm babbling, but my point is that people with money or already blessed with health, ability and funds to be able to earn an income can easily move on. Losing people that could have earned incomes from SL who have the hardest time outside of SL is a loss I doubt the loss of some older viewers will destroy SL, but if we lose people (maybe like yourself) due to it, we're losing the one thing LL has to really contribute to the world besides hokey taglines and overpriced product. People can find entertainment anywhere. Opportunity ... not so much for people who need it most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Couldbe Yue Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: For what it's worth, I believe that the only redeeming value that SL has ever had is to provide the ability for people to earn an income. I'll disagree with you there, SL has always been a place that gives people a chance to touch the stars. (and not in the dirty way you lot are probably thinking.. tsk!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Couldbe Yue wrote: Dartagan Shepherd wrote: For what it's worth, I believe that the only redeeming value that SL has ever had is to provide the ability for people to earn an income. I'll disagree with you there, SL has always been a place that gives people a chance to touch the stars. (and not in the dirty way you lot are probably thinking.. tsk!) Ouch! Last I heard adult regions are gaining during the decline (up to 13% adult regions), so can you blame me for an impure thought or two? It leads me to romance as a guess, but that's not an SL exclusive, and neither is creativity or art. I'm either coming up empty or intentionally feigning ignorance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I agree with you completely. LL didn't understand what their real product was. Places like Youtube and others understood what the draw is to their product. If you look at the history of technology, it is almost always the economy that arises that really spreads the appeal and results in profits for every1. Windows didn't become huge because it was a great product really. It took off because people made money off of it's operating system. You can say this about almost all the big boys. In LL's case tho, they didn't manage the company well. They chased after things that were idiotic, and poored tons of money into those things. They let their coders run the show, instead of making them finish their actual work, and getting the bugs out. If you look at rating and reviews of the company during the boom, all the employees loved the company cause they got to do whatever the f they wanted. No1 was the adult and said, "Fix that crap". My views probably differ a bit concerning the viewer. I'm happy this move is happening. These viewer wars did not do anything to help SL's situation. I also think that 99% of this old PC stuff is complete and total BS. Yeah, some rare people will have a problem. Using a pc that is over 7 years old, is a bit ridiculous. To even think for a minute that any large percentage of people are using a pc that old, is a bit naive. What I see as the reality, is the old pc BS is just a scapegoat. Far too many people are just giving others really bad advice sticking to that old viewer. I talk to new people every single day, and they ask me all kinds of things. When they find out that I use the newest viewer and always have, they then ask more questions. I tell them about all these features they never, ever heard about. Even merchants that I talk to, are like what, we can do that? 1 guy saw I had a billboard with my SL profile feed on it. It was just a pic until you click it. I told him he needed V3. So he logged in, clicked the board, and was like WTF. He didn't know about web on a prim. He didn't know we had Profile feeds. He didn't know about flash on a prim. I could go on and on. He's been in SL this whole time too, but always used Phoenix. The funny part was, when I told him he had to use V3, he told me he could not. I told him that is BS and just download it and log in. I have run 3 different computers for a few years now, just to check and see what experience each kind of user is having. Whenever I got a new pc, I just set the old pc to the side and got plugins to connect them all to the same monitor. Plus, I did this because I can't just run everything on 1 pc, as making mocaps is too process intense to run SL also. Over the years, I've purchased 5 computers since I first started in SL, 6 years ago. 2 laptops, and 3 desktops. Every1 of them, I purchased for a good reason, not just cause i wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Don't Panic Yet. So far it is only Phoenix that has said it will not support this. Other TPV based on V1 will probably update. LL said they are giving developers 8 weeks to update and test before it goes live. You have plenty to look at other options. You may want to read the following: Inera Pey's Living in a Modem World blog post which gives a good explanation of what is going on. Ciaran Lavel''s Project Sunshine – Don’t Panic! Jessica Lyon's explanation of the what and why and how this effects Phoenix and their decision to discontinue their support of it. If you really end up needing to upgrade your computer or parts of it there are alternatives to buying new. Goodwill Industries sells not only used computers that are relatively recent models but parts too for pennies on the dollar. Most of what they sell is donated by corps that upgrade their own computers frequently so some are only a year old. My partner runs three computers he bought from them for less than 100US, and some far cheaper, that he upgrades as he 'finds' better computers or components at Goodwill. He is able to run Firestorm very well , in fact in some aspects better than I can with a new power user computer. I'm sure someone in the SL community can tell you exactly what you need and Couldbe's suggestion should be acted on. Computer's aren't that hard to work on and you can probably do a lot yourself. Most of the stuff is plug and play, making a few easy connections and/or downloading the right drivers for the component. I've done it many times for myself and for my office with the aid of some tech info I find on Google if I need it. Even if you don't know squat a techy friend can many times walk you through it on the phone. But if you can't or are not confident enough to try, contact some local organizations that help the disabled and they may have a volunteer able to do it for you or even the local tech college or high school and get a techy kid to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I don't understand a bit of the technology behind server side baking. What I understand from it, after a quick read here and there, is that processes that first took place in the viewer, in the future will take place on the server. What I am actually curious about is: will it have any influence on how easy it is to rip content from creators? Will this new way improve things for us merchants, when it comes to content ripping? Or does it not make any difference at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirhc DeSantis Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Have to say my old (well worn) laptop is getting close to 7 now and still manages to run every viewer I have yet to throw at it so yes I tend to think the 'my machine can't run it' thing is a little off. Granted, it can't do much but then again...if I'm on it its because its capable of what I want it for. My main box is hitting 4 and the same - was never anything more than mid range and the cheapest i could get ( yes the video tends to sulk when I really push it but hey keeps my lower paws warm =^^= ). Just for fun I fired up an even older junker someone asked me to take off their hands (was that or landfill) and yes .. a quick clean up and functional. As for viewers I switch between the (usually) two release back V3 and a TPV, again depending on what I am doing. And as ) and if ) theres ever any spare cash I will upgrade it piece by piece. We recently did a makeover on my partners including near everything bar the case and PSU - now runs the latest FS (for example) at ultra all for around a total cost of 250 bucks (approx) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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