'He or she' versus 'they' - what to use?

[Snugs McMasters]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

I am unmoved by the Mainiacs.

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They're more moving if you turn off the sound.

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They aren't the only ones.

[161488303349]

is here

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/they?q=they

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usage example is

"anyone can join if they are a resident"

(:

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edit:

seems can use they if is previous indefinite pronoun. like:

OP said they are going inworld

[Innula Zenovka]

Thanks.   I would have rewritten that particular example, I must say; what's wrong with simply "Any resident can join"? (Or, even better,  "may join"?).

There's a difference, though, I think, between using "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun when in needs to agree with a singular noun that represents a number of people, some of whom are men  and some of whom are women ( e.g. "residents") and using it when you're talking about a particular person whose gender is not specified (as in the example that started this thread).

[161488303349]

yes. i agree that the example they used made it more confusing

is good tho to know about the indefinite pronoun thing

so i can say:

i rang that person and left a message. they didnt return my call 

[Madelaine McMasters]

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16 wrote:

so i can say:

i rang that person and left a message. they didnt return my call 

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Which I'd word as: I rang Snugs and left a message. That jackass didn't return my call.

I realize this doesn't demonstrate the use of "they", but I don't care ;-)

[Charolotte Caxton]

I don't think it started in the 60's. From the link you provided:

Singular "they"

Main article: Singular they

Since at least the 15th century, "they" (though, as with singular "you", used with verbs conjugated in the plural, not the singular), "them", "themself", "themselves", and "their" have been used, in an increasingly accepted fashion, as singular pronouns. This usage of the word "they" is often thus called the singular "they". The singular "they" is widely used and accepted in Britain, Australia, and North America in conversation. Many still consider this usage improper grammar, however.

 

• I say to each person in this room: may they enjoy themselves tonight!
• Anyone who arrives at the door can let themself in using this key.
• Eche of theym sholde ... make theymselfe redy. — Caxton, Sonnes of Aymon (c. 1489)

 

In modern colloquial speech, sometimes "they" is used even when the gender of the subject is obvious; "they" implies a generic (or representative of type class) rather than individuated interpretation[15]:

 

• If some guy beat me up, then I'd leave them.
• Every bride hopes that their wedding day will go as planned.

[SinfulPrince]

In the end it is simple: we humans have created the way we live. -That includes English grammar. However long standing, it was implimented at some point. It was not already standing when all of this came into being. If it can be created, it can be uncreated. And certainly its fair game for modifying.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

I don't think it started in the 60's. From the

link

 you provided:

Singular "they"

Main article: 

Singular they

Since at least the 15th century, "they" (though, as with singular "you", used with verbs conjugated in the plural, not the singular), "them", "themself", "themselves", and "their" have been used, in an increasingly accepted fashion, as singular pronouns. This usage of the word "they" is often thus called the 

singular "they"

. The singular "they" is widely used and accepted in Britain, Australia, and North America in conversation. Many still consider this usage improper grammar, however.

 

• I say to each person in this room: may 
  they
   enjoy themselves tonight!
  This simply doesn't sound right. I'd say "May you enjoy yourself tonight!".
• Anyone who arrives at the door can let 
  themself
   in using this key.
  This one is difficult to work around and I'd use it.
• Eche of theym sholde ... make theymselfe redy. — Caxton, Sonnes of Aymon (c. 1489)
  Ah, it's a family thing then?

In modern colloquial speech, sometimes "they" is used even when the gender of the subject is obvious; "they" implies a generic (or representative of type class) rather than individuated interpretation

[15]

:

 

• If some guy beat me up, then I'd leave them.
• Every bride hopes that their wedding day will go as planned.
  For me, both of these examples argue against the use.
  "Every bride hopes her wedding day will go as planned" is a lot more evocative.

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I can see why this is still debated.

[161488303349]

i tried ring that person who you are maybe talking about. maybe they are. maybe they are not. i dont really know them all that well. but they not answer anyways when i say who i was. they just made a funny gurgle noise

hope is nothing wrong with them. maybe you can see if they are alright. like i not want to make a problem for them. seems like they already got enough problems themselves and they not really need me and them like me adding to any probs they may have

q; (:

[Peggy Paperdoll]

• If some guy beat me up, then I'd leave them.

Not even close to grammatically correct.  The sentence is speaking of a single "guy" who beat a single "me" up.  Where in the world does the plural pronoun "them" tie into that sentence?  It's simply an incorrect use of the pronoun "them".  In that sentence the only correct pronoun is "him".

 

• Every bride hopes that their wedding day will go as planned.

A unique sentence.  "Every bride" refers to a group of brides so the use of "their" is just as correct as the use of "her".  The context with the pronoun "their" implies that there could be a single wedding day planned for all the brides (such as June 1) but it's not clear by the context.  But if the pronoun "her" was used there is no implication of a common wedding day.  The sentence can have a slightly different meaning depending on what context it taken by the reader of the sentence.......it's correct either way but it is a little ambiguous. 

[Charolotte Caxton]

It is not a plural pronoun, it is the singular they.

 

[161488303349]

i think the rule is that the thing referred to has to be indeterminate

like Peggy says. has been determined that is a guy, so is correct to say him

the bride one a bit less determinate bc it may be two gay men getting married

[Charolotte Caxton]

Yes, would be correct to say him, however, it is not incorrect to use the singular they. May not be the best word choice, but it still works.

[161488303349]

yes. thats true

as long as the other person understands then i think it dont matter much

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just on english

i think that bc english is so flexible is why it is the best language. english language has no shame. it just takes words from other langauges. even made up words quite often. and everyone just goes oh! well and starts using them

[Charolotte Caxton]

It's like, if some guy beat me up. Which guy? Any of them. If some guy beat me up, I'd leave them.

 

If Joe beat me, I would leave him.

 

If he beats me, I will leave him.

 

If a certain particular person beats me, I'm leaving them.

[Charolotte Caxton]

All words are made up words.

[161488303349]

yes i get it now. thanks (:

[Charolotte Caxton]

[Amethyst Jetaime]

English is a living language that changes all the time words are added, the meaning of words change and the structure of 'correct or good' grammar changes over time.  If it didn't we'd still be speaking Old English like Chaucer.

The use of the plural pronoun in place of a singular one is widely accepted now by all the major dictionaries and even most grammar police. Like so many words in English, it is now the context of how the word is used that defines what is meant by it.  While sometimes using two or more words to do the job of one is acceptable in more formal situations, for everyday use, go for efficiency.  Everyone will know what you mean, and that is the point of writing isn't it?

Personally when I see "s/he", I picture a person that can't make up their mind what they are.

[Phil Deakins]

I didn't invent the 's/he' way of writing it but I do think it's useful.

'They' is plural but it is also used to refer to a single person. As some people have said, it's technically incorrect because it's plural, but the rules of language are dictated by they way people use the language - just like spelling is dicated by use and not by the dictionary. So, imo, in sentences like, "They said in the OP that they are going inworld" is a correct use of the word 'they' as far as actual usage is concerned. But if using 'they'; it would be much better to phrase it, "The OP said that they are going inworld", so that it is clearly meant as singular. It gets messy though with the word 'are'  which, in this case, is the third person plural of the verb 'to be'. But we do use it in a third person singular sense, as in that sentence although not in grammar books.

To be grammatically correct, the sentence would need to be something like, "He or she said that he or she is going inworld", which doesn't sound very good. Or He/she said that...." which would sound better.

Grammar is not absolute. It is often correctly personal - especially puctuation.

[Leia36]

[Charolotte Caxton]

Lol, Leia.

Phil, it is not grammatically incorrect to use they when refering to a single person. That is what is called Singular They.

As has been pointed out, several dictionaries include the definitions of the singular they.

Maybe it used to be that way and that is why there is a debate, not just here, but in the grammar world at large.

 

"For National Grammar Day, linguist Neal Whitman takes a look at a long-standing source of contention among grammar enthusiasts: singular they.(Grammar purists, prepare yourselves for some unconventional rules!)

When my son Adam was doing a worksheet on words prefixed with dis-,one of the questions was, "What might cause you to distrust someone?" Adam wrote, "If they let you down." He looked at what he'd written, then said in a tone of mild wonder, "Sometimes they can be singular."

I was proud of him, not only for having absorbed his teacher's lesson on pronouns, but  for realizing that it didn't completely match what he knew about his language. Unfortunately, I couldn't leave well enough alone. The next day, I asked him, "If they is singular, then can you say, 'they is ready'?"

"Oh!" Adam said. "So are can be singular, too!"

I should have kept my mouth shut."

- from Do's and Don'ts for Singular "They" 2010

[Phil Deakins]

I hadn't read the rest of the thread when I wrote that not many minutes ago, and I agreed with the first few posts because 'they' is plural. In fact, when I'd posted it, I was astonished that there were already 5 pages of posts. I'd thought there were only a few - on page 1.

But what I said about grammar following usage, was correct, as I later saw confirmed when I read the rest of the thread 

Perhaps dictionaries and such will become firm on the singular use of 'they'.

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

[Charolotte Caxton]

Correct.