Prims and Land Impact

[Couldbe Yue]

This may be a bit of a silly question but the marketplace still asks for the number of prims when you list and I've just realised that firestorm (and I assume v2) no longer actually show prims - they only show land impact.

What are you supposed to put in the prim field then?  The no of prims or the land impact?  I've always put prims in (even when it's higher than LI) but suddenly it dawned on me that only those of us who still use phoenix and the other viewers of that type actually see prim number (which is irrelevant anyway these days) as the other 70% only see and work with LI.

So, I assume that everyone just puts the LI in there now or is everyone as confused as me?

[Czari Zenovka]

I'm as confused as you.

[Pamela Galli]

LI is all that matters now so that's what I put.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Regardless of what the listing field is called, I consider it to be LAND IMPACT as Prims have no relevance anymore. 

As for what value to use for my Mesh listings..... I use the LI of my mesh as it is initially rezzed after purchase.  I have also started putting in the description of my mesh... the LI at what dimension (like my Dragonflies).  It tells the customer more information of how efficient the mesh is since saying the LI of a mesh without mentioning the size is pretty much a useless value to a customer.

 

[TatianaDokuchic Varriale]

I actually created a Jira ( Web-4417 ) back in January to address this issue.  Since then I've been using Land Impact.

Not sure what you can see of it now so here's the original description:

Now that Land Impact has been implemented as "Second Life's mechanism for calculating the computational weight of an object against land usage limits." it has become a necessary filter for the Marketplace Search.

Personally I would be fine with a simple update that would see the current label "Prim Count" changed to "Land Impact" but I'm not opposed to the creation of a new "Land Impact" searchable field.  The important thing is that Land Impact is included in a timely fashion, however it is done.

It may also be prudent to include a corresponding "See Description" checkbox similar to that which is used for Permissions.

[Darrius Gothly]

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TatianaDokuchic Varriale wrote:

I actually created a Jira ( 

Web-4417

 ) back in January .. (snip)

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[sarcasm] It's only October Tatiana ... what's your rush? Clearly you have no idea how complicated it is to change two words on a web page. [/sarcasm]

(beats head on desk)

[Couldbe Yue]

Thank you, that's the first genuine laugh I've had in the last couple of hours..  (I've been having *ahem* fun with more unwanted design features inworld on my full priced, yet actually a well below sub standard alpha test environment, parcel).

 

[Darrius Gothly]

You're welcome. No charge ... THIS time. *evil wink*

Mwaahahahahahaaaa!!

[Ashtyn Ninetails]

...as long as it asks for number of prims, I will put the number of prims. Once it starts asking for Land Impact, then I will use that.

[Ewan Shelford]

I recently got a 1-star-rating for a product because I put the prim count in the prim count field while the land impact is 4.

 

[Pamela Galli]

Is there a reason anyone should care how many actual prims/sculpts/meshes something is made of? Cause I can't think of any.

[Ewan Shelford]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Is there a reason anyone should care how many actual prims/sculpts/meshes something is made of? Cause I can't think of any.

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For modifyable items it does make a difference of how many parts they are composed.

[Pamela Galli]

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Ewan Shelford wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Is there a reason anyone should care how many actual prims/sculpts/meshes something is made of? Cause I can't think of any.

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For modifyable items it does make a difference of how many parts they are composed.

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Okay, can you tell me what difference it makes -- in particular the difference it makes to buyers (tho I don't know what difference it makes to creators either)?

[Ewan Shelford]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Okay, can you tell me what difference it makes -- in particular the difference it makes to buyers

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If a product is made of one single mesh the buyer can only resize it and change the texture. 

The more components it is made of, the more options the buyers have for modifications. 

 

 

[Pamela Galli]

Okay, that is one consideration. But if that is the only one, I can tell you right now that buyers will care MUCH more that a piece of furniture has a LI of 42 than they do that it is made of two meshes. 

[Porky Gorky]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Okay, that is one consideration. But if that is the only one, I can tell you right now that buyers will care MUCH more that a piece of furniture has a LI of 42 than they do that it is made of two meshes. 

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Maybe that would be the case for furniture as people tend not to mod furniture too much in my experience. However when it comes to prefab buildings, mesh really restricts the end users ability to modify their build. Over the years I have actively encourage customers to rip my builds apart, make something new and something better out of them. I help facilitate this by providing full perm copies of every texture used in the builds creation and even sometimes suggestions in the notecard on sections of the build that could be easily adapted or removed so 2 copies could be joined together for example. Doing so broadens the appeal of the building, allot of my customers are builders themselves and have been in SL many years, however they dont have the time or inclination to create a good build from scratch, they would rather buy a modifiable prefab and then adjust it to their own requirements.  

With the arrival of mesh I have had to really think hard about how to keep the buildings as modifiable as possible. I try and make sure the materials are all mapped in such a way that customers can just drop new textures straight onto the walls and floors and ceilings and I try and section the build up in such a way so that customers could remove exterior walls and link 2 builds together for example. I have to think allot harder in advance about what I am building which really does not suit my build style as I would just rather play around and experiment without any end goal in mind.

[Medhue Simoni]

Actually, you can see all the info on prims, land impacts, display costs, server costs, and more if you click the MORE INFO link in the edit window.

 

I think the Marketplace should make merchants list all the information, as it is all relevant. At the very least, the MP should make merchants post the Prims, Land Impact, and the Display. All of this affect the customer and any1 else that may have to see the item. It is nearly impossible to make a lag free region without knowing these things. No1 talks about display cost, but it is probably the single most important data point for Lag.

[Pamela Galli]

 

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Porky Gorky wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Okay, that is one consideration. But if that is the only one, I can tell you right now that buyers will care MUCH more that a piece of furniture has a LI of 42 than they do that it is made of two meshes. 

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Maybe that would be the case for furniture as people tend not to mod furniture too much in my experience. However when it comes to prefab buildings, mesh really restricts the end users ability to modify their build. Over the years I have actively encourage customers to rip my builds apart, make something new and something better out of them. I help facilitate this by providing full perm copies of every texture used in the builds creation and even sometimes suggestions in the notecard on sections of the build that could be easily adapted or removed so 2 copies could be joined together for example. Doing so broadens the appeal of the building, allot of my customers are builders themselves and have been in SL many years, however they dont have the time or inclination to create a good build from scratch, they would rather buy a modifiable prefab and then adjust it to their own requirements.  

With the arrival of mesh I have had to really think hard about how to keep the buildings as modifiable as possible. I try and make sure the materials are all mapped in such a way that customers can just drop new textures straight onto the walls and floors and ceilings and I try and section the build up in such a way so that customers could remove exterior walls and link 2 builds together for example. I have to think allot harder in advance about what I am building which really does not suit my build style as I would just rather play around and experiment without any end goal in mind.

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Yes but we are talking about marketplace listings, and MY customers are MUCH more concerned, when they look at prim count in a listing, to see how much the object will reduce their prim count by. Info about how meshes are constructed can be included in the description.

I mean, if a building is 10 meshes and 200 LI, do you think customers want to see the 10 or the 200 in the prim count?  Are they thinking about how much it will deduct from their prim limit or about how to modify?

[Toysoldier Thor]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

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Porky Gorky wrote:

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Pamela Galli wrote:

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Yes but MY customers are MUCH more concerned, when they look at a listing, to see what the land impact is. Info about how meshes are constructed can be included in the description.

I mean, if a building is 10 meshes and 200 LI, do you think customers want to see the 10 or the 200 in the prim count?  Are they thinking about how much it will deduct from their prim limit or about how to modify?

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Completely what Pamela said.  The most important and in my opinion Mandatory information that should be mentioned to any customer of a build are:

 

1. What is the "LI" at its initial rez size.
2. What is the size dimensions of the initial rez size

Any other information to me is information that is not critical but could easily be documented by Merchants in either the description and/or features section of the list.  If this information is critical to you and your target customer - then document it.  If its not then dont.

But as a carry forward of listings always documenting PRIM COUNT on a sold item in MP, with the deployment of MESH, any wording of PRIMS are irrelevant.

What is really important - especially when MESH is part of your build is to tell the customer what the initial rez size is of your selling product.  WHY?  Because this is one of the largest factors of what will calculate LI.  It also gives the Customer good information on how efficient or poor the mesh components of your build is.

Example:

I make Mesh dragonflies.  In my listing for my dragonflies I say that they have an LI=1 at an initial rez size of 2 meters.

If someone was making another mesh dragonfly and it was LI=10 at 2 meters in size, this should tell customers that the mesh build is either very inefficient or there better be a lot of extremely detailed contours to this version of a dragonfly.  It also tells a customer that if they have plans to make the dragonfly bigger (like 10 meters in size), it will likely use up a huge amount of LI (likely over 100 - 200 prim of their land).

Those are my thoughts.

[Porky Gorky]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

 

Yes but we are talking about marketplace listings, and MY customers are MUCH more concerned, when they look at prim count in a listing, to see how much the object will reduce their prim count by. Info about how meshes are constructed can be included in the description.

I mean, if a building is 10 meshes and 200 LI, do you think customers want to see the 10 or the 200 in the prim count?  Are they thinking about how much it will deduct from their prim limit or about how to modify?

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I wasn't suggesting that the number of meshes an object is made of is a more important selling point than LI. I was just generally complaining about how Mesh has made prefabs harder to modify for end users. Even though I try to make mesh builds more modifiable and DIY friendly I still don't bother advertising that fact in my MP listings or anywhere else other than the notecard that comes with the build.

[Prim Composer]

Is there a reason?  I can give you at least 4 and there are probably many more.  As a builder you need to know how many components and of what kind go into a build so you can take steps to lower land impact as you're building.  Again, as a builder, knowing how many components in a build can help you learn how to build more impact friendly builds simply through trial and error.  but experiments in that direction are useless unless you know what you're dealing with and knowing your starting numbers vs your impact numbers helps you learn.  As a land owner you might want to know how many  so that you can know how many land prims you are losing or gaining compared to how many actual prims are in the build.  As a customer with a modifyable product you may want to know so you can judge what happens to land impact when you modify the build.  

[Pamela Galli]

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Prim Composer wrote:

Is there a reason?  I can give you at least 4 and there are probably many more.  As a builder you need to know how many components and of what kind go into a build so you can take steps to lower land impact as you're building.  Again, as a builder, knowing how many components in a build can help you learn how to build more impact friendly builds simply through trial and error.  but experiments in that direction are useless unless you know what you're dealing with and knowing your starting numbers vs your impact numbers helps you learn.  As a land owner you might want to know how many  so that you can know how many land prims you are losing or gaining compared to how many actual prims are in the build.  As a customer with a modifyable product you may want to know so you can judge what happens to land impact when you modify the build.  

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Again -- the topic in this thread is the Prim Count field of MARKETEPLACE, and whether marketplace customers want to see the LI or the actual number of prims/meshes there. It has nothing to do with building anything, but about listing builds in such a way as to be optimally informative to the customer, who typically does not care as much about how many meshes you used as what the LI is. 

[Ciaran Laval]

At the moment land impact is far more important than how a building is constructed. If pathfinding ever takes off, it will be important for people to know how a build is constructed as pathfinding attributes are based on linksets., but even then land impact should be the primary factor.

The only other land impact score to consider is the land impact score on rez and the land impact score once it's in place, scripts still do weird things to land impact scores and if a scripted rezzer is required, the land impact score will be lower once the build is set in place.

[Pamela Galli]

IMO any relevant information about how something is constructed belongs in the description field. That is where I include information, say, about how modifying a mesh building works, or about how many linksets a build has included in the Rez box. 

Those merchants who want to put the number of meshes instead of the LI are free to do so, but a lot of buyers are not going to be happy with that.

[Madeliefste Oh]

Nowadays I fill in the LI number for prim count. But I was confused as well, in the beginning when I first started to list meshes. In those days it was not even called 'land impact' but PE or something like that. I thought like: the prim count is a fixed number, while PE depends on scale of the object, so it is not fixed. To inform my customers it would be best to put all information about PE in the listings itself, and use the prim count for what it is: the number of prims in the product.

Later I started regretting this choice, and began to use the LI number in the prim count box. I had to go through my listings again to change PE to LI when the name was changed.

The whole point of this confusion is that marketplace was not ready for mesh, when it was released on main grid. Even until today the marketplace is not suitable for for mesh. This prim count - LI schism is not the only problem we have. There is still no check box to filter mesh objects or exclude mesh objects from the search. And how about the category, they just made one big 'dump all' mesh category in builders tools, while prim object and sculpts all have subcategories.

It's a very bad job on integrating mesh in marketplace. LL should be more proud on what the mesh devellopers team has established and force that marketplace team to find a better solution for the current unfinished situation.