An appeal to intellectual honesty.. call it a TAX.

[Sassy Romano]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

VAT is a tax.  LL collects the tax for the governments that impose the tax on it's citizens or users of a service in their country.  LL must collect the tax or cease doing business in the country that has the tax in place. 

---

Only because of a very one sided arrangement.  EU countries do not collect US sales tax and pay that in the reverse direction.  I'm not sure which meeting this was arranged in but you can be sure there was no vaseline used, or maybe there was...

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

"land" is just the new-speak for renting server space .. 'residents' dont 'own land' .. tier is rent on server space for code ..

LL has convinced SL players to adopt these terms that disguise whats really going on .. its a marketing gimmick & it works! ppl think they 'own' pixel space & put up ban lines & become all territorial .. LoL .. SL is a window in2 human self-delusion ..

Jeanne

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

 

I don't think LL is fooling anyone.  People know that it is server space they are renting.  If no one rented any server space SL would be limited to a few sims and you wouldn't have anywhere to go to do the things you find entertaining.  If someone pays for the pixels its is their call to do do with them what they want, including not allowing you to use any or restrict how you use them, if they so choose.  Why would anyone pay for them if that were not the case?

The only one delusional here is you for thinking that SL could still exist if everything were free or that creators would create if anyone could take their stuff without asking.  It has never worked in RL, except in very small family or tribal units where even then they didn't allow another tribe or family come and help themselves to anything, but defended their territories. It won't work in SL either.

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

if people think about whats going on most realize that 'land' in SL is virtual and what theyre 'buying' is rented space on a server somewhere to store code .. but by promoting a terminology that disguises this fact LL fosters the false sense that one is 'buying' something tangible that they then 'own' .. this is a marketing gimmick that makes it more palatable for SL players to give LL money .. 'owning land' sounds better than 'renting server space' .. thats all .. people may know the difference but what theyre buying into is the illusion

over the weekend i was exploring around deserted sims .. many had businesses & residential areas .. some of the homes were very nice .. some had yellow ban lines around them but most didnt .. sometimes i would go to those that didnt & go in the houses & look around .. it didnt hurt anything .. i didnt track in mud on the carpet .. i didnt steal anything .. so i hav2 wonder what the point is of putting up yellow ban lines to keep people out .. of course ppl

can

put those lines up .. theyre able to if they want to cuz LL allows it  .. but what purpose do they serve? seems to me like all they do is display the paranoia of those who pay good money for the illusion of 'owning' a virtual house

so why cant SL be run like a "very small family or tribal unit"? id be into that !!

Jeanne

 

---

I have thought about what is going on and will point out the obvious to you....

People  know that they rent server space and not land. You must think people are all mentally deficient since you think they may be tricked into thinking they are buying actual land.  They do however,   "own" the rights to the use of that space  as long as you pay the rent and follow the rules. What they see on their screen may well be an illusion of pixels but people pay for illusions all the time.  Do you ever go to the movies? see a play?  Ever seen a landscape in a painting that doesn't reallly exist?  These are all illusions that people pay for. 

 I can think of a number of very valid reasons that people would want to keep you or anyone else out.  It has nothing to do with mud on the carpet.  They may develope products on their  land and dont' want them seen until they are ready to release them. Someone could 'steal' by copybotting.  Maybe they have a griefer stalking them and want ot keep them out.  Maybe they just want privacy and don't want to come home to find uninvited strangers such as you snooping around.  These are just a few and there are more.  But the bottom line is that it doesn't make any difference what their motivations are, even if they seem silly to you, because the one paying for the server space has a right to deny your use of that space.

SL can't be run like a family or tribe because it is too big.  At any given time there is an equivalent of a small city logged on to SL and when you count total active users, it is the size of a small coutnry.  The SL economy itself is bigger than some third world countries.  So how can you say it could possibly be considered small enough to work?

Yes i know you think SL and the entire world should be run as a giant commune with no one owning anything and everyone being able to use what they want when they want to for free.  But that is just an illusion you tell yourself is a possible reality.  You are deluding yourself.

 

 

[Hilton Harpoon]

Wow look at all these real life people and here I was thinking I was in going on about a virtual world named Second Life. If you want to be true to the character you are posting under, start calling it a TAX. If you want to separate your RL self from your SL character, then call it a FEE. The truth is, our local government took over the website sales market and now they are "taxing it". It wasn't enough that they had control over the currency where they can create as much of it as they want.. I have heard allot about that RL world and those ideas that are so wide spread seem to be taking over SL little by little. This whole game is a big experiment, have fun.. but know what is in front of you. Peace

[Innula Zenovka]

Maybe it would have been better to call this thread  "An appeal for more consistent role play ... call it a Tax," then?

 

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

If you make money on SL activities above your costs (including computer, etc.) then you may owe US or state income tax (if in the US), but that is up to the individual, not to LL.

(previous disclaimers apply)

MBC

---

Only if you convert $L to real or hard currency. If i make 2 million $L a year and never convert it to real money i do not have to pay a tax on it. As is stated in the TOS

"5.1 Each Linden dollar is a virtual token representing contractual permission from Linden Lab to access features of the Service. Linden dollars are available for Purchase or distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and are not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab."

[JeanneAnne]

---

Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

VAT is a tax.  LL collects the tax for the governments that impose the tax on it's citizens or users of a service in their country.  LL must collect the tax or cease doing business in the country that has the tax in place.  The user, also, must pay the tax or cease using the service..........there is no "opt out".  The tax is separate above and beyond the fees LL charges for it's service and is listed as a tax (probably VAT but I don't live in a country that imposes a VAT so I can't be sure how it's stated, but it must be separated from the fees).  It's not at all unlike a sales tax people in the United States pay for products and services that the tax is applied to........Target collects the tax on products that are subject to the tax for all consumers (it's listed as a tax on the reciept you recieve).  You cannot refuse to pay the tax without refusing to buy the product(s).  Target doesn't pocket that money........they must pay the taxing authority.  They are merely collecting the tax for the government and they must hand that money over to the government (or face criminal charges).  LL does the same with VAT.  The government gets the money, not the company.  The consumer pays it to the company only because the government requires the company to collect it.

---

thanks Peggy .. thats what i thot

Jeanne

[JeanneAnne]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

 I can think of a number of very valid reasons that people would want to keep you or anyone else out. 

 

 

---

maybe it's because theyre engaged in sexual ageplay there & they dont want any witnesses filing ARs on them for it

thats what i suspect anyway .. whenever i see those yellow ban lines

Jeanne

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I'm sure you suspect that, but the question that interests me is, "do you have any particular reason for regarding these suspicions as anything other than wildly improbable?".  

I'm sure, if you try, you can think of other reasons.. some perfectly innocent, some not so innocent .. why people might not want to be disturbed.

Why is it that, on encountering ban lines, you don't (apparently) think, "ah.. the people there don't want strangers wandering in and disturbing them in the middle of a private conversation"  or "they don't want people disturbing them when they're in the middle of some pixel sex" and, instead, jump to the conclusion "aha.. they're engaged in sexual ageplay"?  

It seems to me a very strange first conclusion to draw.    

[JeanneAnne]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

I'm sure you suspect that, but the question that interests me is, "do you have any particular reason for regarding these suspicions as anything other than wildly improbable?".  

I'm sure, if you try, you can think of other reasons.. some perfectly innocent, some not so innocent .. why people might not want to be disturbed.

Why is it that, on encountering ban lines, you don't (apparently) think, "ah.. the people there don't want strangers wandering in and disturbing them in the middle of a private conversation"  or "they don't want people disturbing them when they're in the middle of some pixel sex" and, instead, jump to the conclusion "aha.. they're engaged in sexual ageplay"?  

It seems to me a very strange first conclusion to draw.    

---

know what my issue w/ ban lines is? maybe youll think its trivial or funny ...

my sisters & i currently live on 1/4 sim .. we dont have ban lines up .. people on the other corners have come & went .. & some of them have put up ban lines & some have not .. i have a skyhouse above our 1/4 sim & it is near where the 4 quarters come together .. we have a Zoobie cat named Ramona .. she was a gift i gave to my sister .. i can pet her & set her to roam & put her on follow .. but i gave her to my sister so its my sister who has her in inv & really controls her

what has happened is that i put Ramona on 'follow' & flew up to my skyhouse with her .. after we hung out there i jumped & she jumped with me .. i came down on our 1/4 sim but couldnt find Ramona .. i was freaked & my sister wasnt inworld .. next time i saw her i told her that i had lost Ramona .. since she has Ramona in inv i guess she just re-rezzed her & there she was

so a few days later the same thing happened .. but this time i flew up in the sky looking for her .. there she was !! on the other side of those damn yellow ban lines .. bouncing up & down in the air !!  apparently when i jumped i came down on our side but Ramona came down on the other side of the ban lines & got stuck there .. I had her on follow but somehow she couldnt cross the ban lines .. so my sister had to fix her again

after that i started jumping off the opposite side of my skyhouse & Ramona came down with me .. those ppl who put up those lines are gone & either their 1/4 sim is for rent or someone else has rented it who hasnt put up ban lines .. i hate ban lines because they made me loose my cat !! & that caused me anxiety .. so thats the real reason i hate them

 

maybe people put up ban lines for a variety of reasons .. or for no reason besides that they can .. so they do .. my sisters & i feel no need to put up ban lines .. anyone is welcome where we live .. so maybe just because ppl put up ban lines it doesnt necessarily mean that theyre engaged in sexual age play & dont want any witnesses to file ARs on them .. but the POINT IS ... that ban lines ALLOW ppl to get away with sexual ageplay .. so whenever i see those yellow lines im going to suspect that MAY be whats going on behind those lines .. if LL was really serious about putting an end to sexual ageplay they would disable ban lines

Jeanne

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

So, what you're saying is you don't like ban lines because the interfered with a piece of imaginary "property" that you "bought" in SL? ; )

 

[JeanneAnne]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So, what you're saying is you don't like ban lines because the interfered with a piece of imaginary "property" that you "bought" in SL? ; )

 

---

i dont like ban lines because they made me lose my cat

i dont like ban lines because they allow people to engage in illegal sexual ageplay and to violate LL's ToS in other ways

i dont like ban lines because they foster this "mine" versus "yours" mentality that i find detestable

i dont like ban lines because they interfer with my ability to explore around & see things in SL

Jeanne

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

So, what you're saying is you don't like ban lines because the interfered with a piece of imaginary "property" that you "bought" in SL? ; )

 

---

i dont like ban lines because they made me lose my cat

i dont like ban lines because they allow people to engage in illegal sexual ageplay and to violate LL's ToS in other ways

i dont like ban lines because they foster this "mine" versus "yours" mentality that i find detestable

i dont like ban lines because they interfer with my ability to explore around & see things in SL

Jeanne

 

---

1. you lost your cat because it landed on someone elses property. 

2. you can camm into other parcels and see exactly what is going on, if you see a violation report it.

3. s, you wouldn't mind if came and squatted on your land with my skybox then?

4. kinda like locks in RL doors huh. I bet that pisses you off too. Not being able to walk into someones house and watch their tv and eat their food, play on their bed. 

Grow up.

[JeanneAnne]

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

1. you lost your cat because it landed on someone elses property. 

2. you can camm into other parcels and see exactly what is going on, if you see a violation report it.

3. s, you wouldn't mind if came and squatted on your land with my skybox then?

4. kinda like locks in RL doors huh. I bet that pisses you off too. Not being able to walk into someones house and watch their tv and eat their food, play on their bed. 

Grow up.

---

1. Jessica Chung "owns" the entire sim .. she just has it divided up in2 quarter she rents to ppl .. but you know very well that theres no "property" to be owned .. its just a simulation coded for on servers owned or leased by Linden Lab

2. i cant see what goes on behind walls .. and i dont file ARs .. theyre a waste of time ..

3. i wouldnt mind at all .. my skyhouse is @ 600 m .. put yours @ 1000 m if you want .. but youd better clear it w/ my sisters 1st .. i dont know if theyd mind or not

4. LoL me & my 1st SL bf use2 have sex on ppls virtual beds when we explored around deserted sims .. it didnt leave a mess .. RL would be a different story !! :catlol:

if we Grew Up wed all stop playing cartoon games Drake

Jeanne

 

[Innula Zenovka]

It sounds to me, from your description, as if your problem with your cat wasn't so much to do with ban lines as with the parcel owners not allowing objects that weren't set to their landgroup to enter the parcel.

That's a basic bit of land management for people who want to avoid griefing objects being dropped there (which would have been just as much a nuisance for you and your sister as for the owners of the land -- more so, in fact, since you'd have had to wait for the owners to return them).

[JeanneAnne]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

It sounds to me, from your description, as if your problem with your cat wasn't so much to do with ban lines as with the parcel owners not allowing objects that weren't set to their landgroup to enter the parcel.

That's a basic bit of land management for people who want to avoid griefing objects being dropped there (which would have been just as much a nuisance for you and your sister as for the owners of the land -- more so, in fact, since you'd have had to wait for the owners to return them).

---

thanks Innula .. im sure youre right .. but Ramona was on the other side of those ban lines & was bouncing up & down in the air & she was on follow so she should have flown away with me but she didnt seem to be able to cross the yellow lines or bars .. im not exactly sure how CJ got her back but i dont think she had to ask the other ppl to return her .. i could be wrong about that tho ..

once when i was swimming i had Ramona on follow & she was swimming beside me & i swam up close to the edge of the sim & she disappeared .. my sis got her back that time too .. a club owner who has a white Zooby cat said that yeah .. its possible for them to "fall off" the edge of the sim & that has happened to her cat be4 .. but up in the air was in the middle of the sim .. where the 4 quarters come together ..

i have 'land management' privileges but my sister has been in SL for a long time & knows all about stuff like that .. so i just let her do it

Jeanne

 

[Innula Zenovka]

I think what must have happened, from your description, is that you and the cat hit the 80 meter barrier.   To my mind, unless you'd been banned from the parcel by name, you should have been able to fly up to 90 meters, then flown over to where Ramona was and tried to get her to follow you back into your sister's parcel. 

See https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits  (the section on Land).   Certainly, though, the controls on object entry are completely separate from those limiting the entry of avatars.   

[JeanneAnne]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

I think what must have happened, from your description, is that you and the cat hit the 80 meter barrier.   To my mind, unless you'd been banned from the parcel by name, you should have been able to fly up to 90 meters, then flown over to where Ramona was and tried to get her to follow you back into your sister's parcel. 

See 

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits

  (the section on Land).   Certainly, though, the controls on object entry are completely separate from those limiting the entry of avatars.   

---

Ah! yeah .. i bet youre right .. she wasnt all that high up .. i didnt think to go higher & try to get her .. thanks !!

Jeanne

 

[Marybeth Cooperstone]

Drake1Nightfire wrote:

"Only if you convert $L to real or hard currency. If i make 2 million $L a year and never convert it to real money i do not have to pay a tax on it. As is stated in the TOS"

Very true. By "Make money" I mean real money, dollars or something. That would be the gross income. After deducting what the dollars you converted to $L (for your business) and your business expense, in dollars, you would get your taxable business income. If you never converted $L to real $, then you would have no income.

In addition to previous disclaimers, I will add: for any real tax advice, see your own tax professional.

MBC

[Qie Niangao]

Incidentally, in case any landowner gets the wrong idea, blocking object entry is a very ineffective way of curtailing the spread of griefer objects. It can sometimes be useful, briefly, in the midst of an attack, but it's no substitute for auto-return.

Of course, restricted access ("whitelist" banlines) would be even less effective at that, and is almost never what the landowner actually intended--but because they can't see their own banlines, it's not obvious that they only go up to 50m above ground level. So they flip the switch to allow access to group, then build a skybox that anybody can visit.

All of which is usually only annoying to the immediate neighbors, but when the restricted access parcel is next to a road or waterway or whatever, it makes a treacherous trap for passing vehicles gone ever so slightly astray, as they are wont to do.

At least there's the text "Unchecking this will create ban lines" next to the Public Access checkbox, but I'd be all in favor of  a prominent warning dialog explaining just how ineffective restricting access actually is, and what other settings might better serve the intended purpose. That, and a little quiz they'd have to pass first. And submit a signed note from a mental healthcare professional.

 

[JeanneAnne]

what is it that you all must do to get attacked by "griefers" ??

iv been in SL a year now & iv never seen any "griefer objects" .. maybe id see the point in all these ban lines & restricted access & stuff .. if i ever saw griefers attack .. but why do they? you must piss them off somehow ..

even when i lived @ Seaside Rendezvous .. which sadly no longer exists .. the entire sim was open to the public .. far as i know ~& admittedly i wasnt in charge & may notuv been aware of all that went on~ nothing serious ever happened there .. worst thing was when Iky used that avvie magnent on me .. when i told my sister she was goin2 ban him but i asked her not to ..

so what do you all do to get griefers after you ??

Jeanne

[Qie Niangao]

Nah.  Well, I'm sure there are griefers who target individuals, but that's a tiny percentage. Otherwise, just owning land is enough to get griefed. Most land griefers are "in it for the lulz", and they're just bored kiddies who've decided there's a kind of meta-game in SL that amounts to messing up as much of the grid as possible. So they spread around prims that emit pornographic particles in great quantity, for example, where those prims are sometimes difficult to clean out and/or to keep cleaned out.

The closer your land is to a public (non-Premium) sandbox, or an older infohub, the more of it you get, but being along roads, rails, or water is enough to get it at least occasionally.

It's nothing to get overly exercised about. Just use proper land settings and the problem goes away. Well, 90% of it, anyway.

[Innula Zenovka]

One reason you might not have seen many greifer objects could be that lots of places take basic precautions to frustrate their use.  

I haven't seen that many other than in sandboxes, though recently, of course, there's been a spate of those infernal exDepart things.   They're mostly a problem on Mainland, I think, since it's often that much harder to get someone over to deal with them.    I think also you need to distinguish between objects that are deliberately used because someone's got a grudge against somone -- like one guy who kept crashing a sim I owned because the club that rented half of it had banned him -- and objects that people just make cos they like to play nasty practical jokes on new and inexperienced residents.  

 I think the most general way of getting griefers after you is run a popular venue, from which you now and again have to ban people for making a nuisance of themselves and spoiling it for other people.   Most people who get banned just leave it at that (or go back to Aherne), but some others get really upset and decide to retailiate.  

 

[JeanneAnne]

thanks Qie & Innula .. i guess then probably the reason i never see griefers & their stuff is cuz iv mostly lived on sims that are squares out in the middle of what looks like the ocean ~altho i cant fly or sail my sailboat outuv them~ i TP all over but seldom look at the map to see where i am .. im sure iv been to mainland places but couldnt tell you exactly where .. sounds like i just seldom go where griefers do their thing

i do know that at some of the clubs where i dance & hang out .. the hostess or host sometimes has to boot or ban someone .. what iv seen sometimes is that they just rezz some big prim thingie that swings around & annoys ppl .. i just figured they did it by accident .. another thing i use2 see @ Seaside was that there were these Portuguese speaking guys ~mostly~ who would hang around & ask to friend you .. being new & naive id accept & then theyd bombard me w/ tp requests .. sometimes id accept & end up @ some club or somewhere & the guy who sent me the tp wouldnt even be there !! my sister said that they get paid for doing this by the owner of the venue for the sake of traffic & to unfriend them & dont accept any more requests unless i knew them .. i figured that was a sortuv griefing ..

Jeanne

[Peggy Paperdoll]

"

i dont like ban lines because they made me lose my cat

i dont like ban lines because they allow people to engage in illegal sexual ageplay and to violate LL's ToS in other ways

i dont like ban lines because they foster this "mine" versus "yours" mentality that i find detestable

i dont like ban lines because they interfer with my ability to explore around & see things in SL

Jeanne"

---------------------------------------------------

So, you dislike (hate?) banlines for entirely selfish reasons.  Well, here's a little selfishness on my part...........I don't like selfish, self centered, and free loading prople.  You lost your cat......banlines didn't cause that.  What you did caused that.  Banlines don't allow people to engage in illegal sexual age-play......a sick life-style allows that.  Ban lines don't foster a "mine vs yours" attitude......it's a fact of life that the people who possess something that they feel has value, they will protect their possessions (look at you and your cat for instance).  Banlines don't interfer with your ability to explore around......they only prevent you from exploring where you are uninvited.

According to you it will be perfectly okay for me and my friends to walk into your house (in RL), raid your refridgerator, tune into your Pay-per-view channel on your TV and watch a couple dozen movies, and since they had such a good time at your expense, they each take a shower in your shower and leave all the dirty fowels on the floor for you to pick up and wash.  That's what you are saying.............what's yours is mine and you should allow me to do as I please because, after all, it's equally yours.  But you don't pay a red cent for any of it.......that's not your responsibilty.

[JeanneAnne]

So, you dislike (hate?) banlines for entirely selfish reasons.

Entirely? I don't think so. I think that the reasons I hate banlines apply to everyone, not just me. The reasons I listed for hating them affect everyone oppressed by them.

I don't like selfish, self centered, and free loading prople.

Guess that makes you a hater. Enjoy your bitterness Peggy. Yeah, I'm a Second Life "freeloader" alright. I enjoy Second Life and I don't pay a cent of real money for my enjoyment. I should care that you don't like that.. Why, exactly?

Banlines don't allow people to engage in illegal sexual age-play......

Yes they do. By being able to secret your sick lifestyle behind banlines you're able or "allowed" to get away with it.

Ban lines don't foster a "mine vs yours" attitude......it's a fact of life that the people who possess something that they feel has value, they will protect their possessions (look at you and your cat for instance).

I would gladly share Ramona with you if the selfish content creator who made her had enabled "share." It isn't my fault that selfishness premeates the mindset of people inculcated with the pernicious "mine vs yours" attiitude. We could both have a nice Zoobie cat if I could share her with you for free, which I would be more than happy to do if I could.

Banlines don't interfer with your ability to explore around......they only prevent you from exploring where you are uninvited.

Why should I be "uninvited"? I do no harm. What's with this selfish "you're not invited.. na nana naaaa na" crap?

According to you it will be perfectly okay for me and my friends to walk into your house (in RL), raid your refridgerator, tune into your Pay-per-view channel on your TV..

I don't own or view TV Peggy, which is perhaps why my mind isn't as infected with the hateful, selfish attitudes you're displaying in your post to me. Have you been drinking? If you want to "walk into" my house, by all means do! So long as come in a spirit of friendliness and peace. The way you're coming across though, I'd just as soon you stayed away. Once you can be nice I'd love to have you over!

...and leave all the dirty fowels on the floor for you to pick up and wash.

Oh please! Like I could leave a mess in someone's Second Life home, even if I wanted to, which I don't. Try a better strawman Peggy. This one doesn't flush.

That's what you are saying...........

Thanks for clarifying what I'm saying for me!

..what's yours is mine and you should allow me to do as I please because, after all, it's equally yours.

Certainly! So long as you're nice. The way you're acting though, I'm not so sure I'd really want to be around you.

But you don't pay a red cent for any of it.....

Nope. I don't. I don't have to. I enjoy Second Life for free, besides what my computer has cost me and my share of the electricity bill. I'm sorry if you feel some need to pay for Second Life when you don't have to. I'm not sure why you feel like you have to though. I guess you must have convinced yourself somehow of that. Or maybe someone convinced you of it because you're gullible. I don't know you beyond this forum so you'll have to answer that question for yourself.

....that's not your responsibilty.

You're correct. It isn't. I have enough responsibility in real life. I come to Second Life to escape from responsibility.

Pay for Second Life, try to make money selling pixel crap, be bitter.. Or lighten up and have fun!  Do what you will Peggy. I wish you only the best! :heart:

Jeanne