An appeal to intellectual honesty.. call it a TAX.

[Medhue Simoni]

There is no doubt that I'm an idealist, but this doesn't mean that I'm without reasoning. You could consider me the biggest anti corporation person, many people have ever met. I see the things they engage in and it sickens me. This is why I believe in the free market, as it seems to me to be the only way to reign them in.

I believe in the Free Market because it is intellectually honest and without coersion. It has faith in people and what each can achieve by their own brilliant acts. It makes no sense to believe in the government, as it is only a group of individuals. Governments are force, and i do not believe it is right for any1 or any 1 group to be able to dictate to another what is right or wrong. All people can come to common notions of what is right and wrong, as it is in every1's interest to do so. Everything else is coersion. When people are left to solve their problems on their own, the end results will almost always be that which does not produce harm to either. Each party is forced to come to a common understanding. It is only government that can produce wars that will kill millions, or allow 1 side to stand firm, to the point of mass deaths.

Oh, you bet I'm an idealist, and hopefully I will stay this way until the day I die.

[Medhue Simoni]

---

Syo Emerald wrote:

Free exchange? So you want an economy without money or what? That doesn't work for complex markets.

 

---

 

When I say free exchange, or free markets, what I mean is that people are free to exchange things however they want without any1 or group of people telling them how they can exchange goods. I do not means a world without money. Contrary to popular belief, money is not the root of all evil, it is governments. Money is only a system to better and easily exchange goods. Money helps to price things accordingly and send all the proper messages to the people, so they can properly act in their own interest. The bad thing about all our money today, is it is controlled by government that inflate it's value on a constant basis, to hide their theft from the people. The inflation of the money supply, which all governments are doing today, hurt the poor the most. Each dollar, or whatever, goes down in value as their governement prints more. The poor spend all of their money on the basics, like food and housing. When their money buys them less, they will be the first to starve and be homeless, while the extra money printed goes directly to rich fat cats to spend at it's full value.

[Solar Legion]

Medhue Simoni wrote:

There is no doubt that I'm an idealist, but this doesn't mean that I'm without reasoning. You could consider me the biggest anti corporation person, many people have ever met. I see the things they engage in and it sickens me. This is why I believe in the free market, as it seems to me to be the only way to reign them in.

I believe in the Free Market because it is intellectually honest and without coersion. It has faith in people and what each can achieve by their own brilliant acts. It makes no sense to believe in the government, as it is only a group of individuals. Governments are force, and i do not believe it is right for any1 or any 1 group to be able to dictate to another what is right or wrong. All people can come to common notions of what is right and wrong, as it is in every1's interest to do so. Everything else is coersion. When people are left to solve their problems on their own, the end results will almost always be that which does not produce harm to either. Each party is forced to come to a common understanding. It is only government that can produce wars that will kill millions, or allow 1 side to stand firm, to the point of mass deaths.

Oh, you bet I'm an idealist, and hopefully I will stay this way until the day I die.

---

Now we are getting somewhere Med. we are agreed in some ways in terms of corporate greed .... Where we differ comes from our own experiences and how we see the world. You believe that people can create and sustain such a market, this means you believe people to be "good" at their base.

I don't. Humans as a whole are capable of atrocities which simply cannot be laid solely at the feet of corporations or governments ... or even institutions of faith! All of thse have a common element: People.

Humans are truly no different than the other animals on this planet when you delve into our base natures. We only cooperate because it behooves us to do so to survive. The instant we feel that such cooperation is no longer required ... we shift to our basest natures and seek only to better our own, individual positions.

There is a difference between believing in government and believing that government is a required evil. I am the latter Med. I don't like the way governments are so easily corrupted but let's be real here for a moment hmm? We've seen throughout human history what happens when government is removed from the equation ... it is not pretty.

Like I said ... in a perfect world, your ideals would work very well. We don't live in a perfect world. Humanity has a lot of growing to do before we have even a hope of meeting the ideals you have. At our present rate? I put that time around the day Sol consumes the Earth.

[Medhue Simoni]

I think you misunderstand my position, and I think I can see why.

 

I do not think all people are good. I do think most are good, or want to be good and respected. There are obviously some psychopaths, and some that think they are working for the good of all. The problem that I see with the world, is that as more and more governments become more and more socialist, those psychopaths will gravitate to government, as they can have the ultimate control there. Governements give the crazy people a place to do their bidding. If governments only stuck to their core purpose, which in the states is define by the original constitution, and not allowed to make new "laws", then they would have limited control over the masses. Over time, under these conditions, I feel that people would realize that they have no real use for government and we would live in a world that would most resemble eden. Nothing can make a perfect world. We could get very close, but only when we drop the notion that we are allowed to control other people with force.

[Boudicca Littlebird]

As you can not sell for a lower price in your land based shop than you advertise in market place, means it is neither a fee or tax, hard to give it a name really, spose the nearest is that they sell goods on your behalf as you have given away the rights to determine your own land based price, I have role play money in my games, I offer a 50% discount in lindens for part payment in role play money, this has forced me to stop using marketplace, it is a pity, but none so blind as those that chase a penny without thinking where it comes from, I only use market place for products I made years ago before I added role play money to the game system, so to sell the role play items that use role play money I am forced to sell the basic meter for zero lindens in market place and nothing more, don't think the lindens really care about game development in sl, they only want a cut of all things sold, shows that SL is run by money men and not people interested in game development.

[Solar Legion]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

I think you misunderstand my position, and I think I can see why.

 

I do not think all people are good. I do think most are good, or want to be good and respected. There are obviously some psychopaths, and some that think they are working for the good of all. The problem that I see with the world, is that as more and more governments become more and more socialist, those psychopaths will gravitate to government, as they can have the ultimate control there. Governements give the crazy people a place to do their bidding. If governments only stuck to their core purpose, which in the states is define by the original constitution, and not allowed to make new "laws", then they would have limited control over the masses. Over time, under these conditions, I feel that people would realize that they have no real use for government and we would live in a world that would most resemble eden. Nothing can make a perfect world. We could get very close, but only when we drop the notion that we are allowed to control other people with force.

---

Therein we run into several problems ... Humans being what we are, if the bulk of the laws on the books were to vanish we would have people who believe they can do whatever they please. This even factors in leaving basic laws concerning treatment of people in place.

As I've said to Social Darwinists in the past (and no, I don't quite think you are one, the principle is still the same however): When we cease to ensure that the smallest and weakest of us is cared for and has a chance to have a life, when we remove all the nets and the regulations, what we are left with is a society that glorifies the "every man for himself" philosophy. The cooperation which ensues in such an instance is half-hearted. It exists only to further serve the individual in getting what they want.

I am very much opposed to such a system Med ... I've seen what can happen under such a system in more minor ways.

We have a lot of growing to do as a species before we're capable of creating the world you believe in - the "psychopaths" of the world don't need to be in positions of power to cause trouble, they can do such quite well from the lowest positions on the totem pole.

[Medhue Simoni]

It's not every man for himself. People give to charities now that feed the majority of people. Gov Assistance barely pays for housing, which is only expensive because of property taxes. The poor end up paying for other people's kids to goto school, as well as other taxes that don't benefit them at all. Without all the gov bureaucracies, we'd all have more money to help out also. Many people can't help as they spend all their money paying for gov BS. When you take away all that, then people don't have to work as much and can also help others more. The people that need help would be much better off with the community helping, not some stranger that will likely abuse them more.

If all you can think about is the problems more freedom will bring, you will blind yourself to new creative solutions that benefit every1. Imagine we are back before the U.S. Civil War, and people are discussing freeing all the slaves. I can imagine the arguments. Who will pick the cotton? Do you think any1 could imagine 1 guy sitting on a machine that picks all the crops for them? The important part was that it is immoral to have slaves, just as it is immoral to steal from some people to give to others. We imagine that the money is only stolen from the rich, but we know that is not true. The money is stolen from every1, even the poor.

I never said we should wake up tomorrow and change everything. Things happen over time, just as it took well over a century to tax us to death. 100 years ago there was no income tax in the U.S. Only 40 years ago, we could trade in dollars for gold. Today that gold is $1800 an ounce. Again, it takes time to change things, and attitudes. The point is that we can start now moving society back into a more moral society, instead of 1 that is completely and utterly immoral.

You say society has alot of growing to do. I say that the only reason we are were we are is because of the propaganda, which lures people away for the truth of the situation. Plus, if you have not noticed, we can not continue on the road we are on. That's a fact which is indisputable. If we do continue like this, people will die, in massive amounts when the whole system collapses. So, the question is, which would you prefer, more freedom and less gov, or massive genocide? You can't balance the books with socialism. Freedom provides real solutions and benefits every1. You aren't going to see free sustainable energy with gov. It doesn't have the incentives to do so. This applies to every field, not just energy. Gov's incentive is to continue along the road until total control, and it won't stop unless people start to wake up.

I'd rather have the psychopaths low on the totem pole where they only kill a few people here or there before they are taken out for good, instead of the head of our govs where they can kill millions.

 

[Phil Deakins]

Just opt out. Governments and law are just huge confidence tricks anyway, so opt out

Nobody gave anyone the right to have authority over other people. Nobody has the authority to give other people such authority in the first place. We are all just people. None are better than anyone else and none have anything intrinsic about themselves that gives them the right to make rules for others. Of course, some people have set themselves up with such authority, but they only have it because people let them - a giant confidence trick.

[Medhue Simoni]

Yeah, I can opt out, but what happens to my children, or my nephews and nieces. I can understand and do what I can to not feed into the evil. In my life, I have watched socialism progress. Today, is bad. How will it be when I die, and my child is left to deal with what I sat back and left him. I don't seak freedom for myself, as I am rational enough to understand that I will never see it. Enslaving my child for the comfort of not debating and being prosecuted by the masses, I won't except that. If only my great grandchild is around to see true freedom, then it will be worth all the debates in the world.

[Solar Legion]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

It's not every man for himself. People give to charities now that feed the majority of people. Gov Assistance barely pays for housing, which is only expensive because of property taxes. The poor end up paying for other people's kids to goto school, as well as other taxes that don't benefit them at all. Without all the gov bureaucracies, we'd all have more money to help out also. Many people can't help as they spend all their money paying for gov BS. When you take away all that, then people don't have to work as much and can also help others more. The people that need help would be much better off with the community helping, not some stranger that will likely abuse them more.

If all you can think about is the problems more freedom will bring, you will blind yourself to new creative solutions that benefit every1. Imagine we are back before the U.S. Civil War, and people are discussing freeing all the slaves. I can imagine the arguments. Who will pick the cotton? Do you think any1 could imagine 1 guy sitting on a machine that picks all the crops for them? The important part was that it is immoral to have slaves, just as it is immoral to steal from some people to give to others. We imagine that the money is only stolen from the rich, but we know that is not true. The money is stolen from every1, even the poor.

I never said we should wake up tomorrow and change everything. Things happen over time, just as it took well over a century to tax us to death. 100 years ago there was no income tax in the U.S. Only 40 years ago, we could trade in dollars for gold. Today that gold is $1800 an ounce. Again, it takes time to change things, and attitudes. The point is that we can start now moving society back into a more moral society, instead of 1 that is completely and utterly immoral.

You say society has alot of growing to do. I say that the only reason we are were we are is because of the propaganda, which lures people away for the truth of the situation. Plus, if you have not noticed, we can not continue on the road we are on. That's a fact which is indisputable. If we do continue like this, people will die, in massive amounts when the whole system collapses. So, the question is, which would you prefer, more freedom and less gov, or massive genocide? You can't balance the books with socialism. Freedom provides real solutions and benefits every1. You aren't going to see free sustainable energy with gov. It doesn't have the incentives to do so. This applies to every field, not just energy. Gov's incentive is to continue along the road until total control, and it won't stop unless people start to wake up.

I'd rather have the psychopaths low on the totem pole where they only kill a few people here or there before they are taken out for good, instead of the head of our govs where they can kill millions.

---

I think it's time to correct you on a few of your talking points:

First and foremost is this - nowhere have I espoused any ideas concerning Socialism. You'd do well to drop that line of reasoning with me as of your first response. I sau exactly what I mean, unlike many.

Second - The people who give to charities out of the goodness of their hearts and a true desire to help are few and far between. The majority do so because it makes them feel good, is a tax reduction and in the end reason that doing so is in their best interests ... Such people do not truly care about others.

Third - You seem to have a bone to pick with government in general. That is understandable. You are, however, letting it blind you wholly to the function government serves. That function is, optimally, to ensure that everyone is treated equally and to prevent the problems of humanity from getting out of hand.

Fourth - The Gpld Standard you mention cannot be properly enforced. If you think it can, there is no further need to discuss this as you truly are too starry eyed for reality.

Fifth - Freedom comes with responsibilities. Those responsibilities cannot be handled by the general populace alone. We tried a bit less government for eight years in some sectors and look what happened near the end of those eight years! Regulation is a must.

Sixth - People cause Genocide, just ask the natives who were here before us. At the time of colonization, this part of North America had the smallest government possible. So small it could barely be called a government. The Monarchy did not order or cause the atrocities which occured ... the populace here did.

Seventh - You are confusing the corruptors with those they corrupt. Your example concerning energy? Talk to the power companies, the oil, coal and gas industries about that one. They're the ones who have no incentive to allow renewable energy sources. And no energy source is "free" ... There is always a cost somewhere.

Eighth - The freedom of the slaves had nothing whatsoever to do with morality. After all, there were - and still are - people who believe that keeping slaves is moral.

Ninth - The idea that we'd all have more money with less government is absurd. No matter which way you slice it, the only way for us t have more money is to get on the ball and find a balance somewhere. Less government means foewer regulations ... and that opens the door for the greedy to come in and do what they do so well. More government follows a similar path ... the type dictated by whomever can control said government.

Tenth - Your prior example of Rome? More starry eyed nonsense. Rome had regulations and they had a government that was only slightly less involved with running things than we have today.

Eleventh - I stand for balance, Med. Human nature precludes the sucess of pure socialism and pure capitalism. Lets look at the issue of the environment for example shall we? Under a perfect, purely capitalist system, all things would be seen as resources and assets which we would be fools to damage/destroy. we would have no need for environmental regulations because no sane businessman would dare to destroy his assets. Enter Human Nature. CEO and board of Dave's Energy Incorporated gets greedy ... They begin to cut corners so they can save a buck here and there. those corners eventually become glaring holes in their environmental policies. By the time someone is able to stop them ... it's too late. The damage is done and all one can do is regulate the industry to prevent it from happening again.

I've been in the lowest of the low areas of the population you believe will be best served by the community. There is nowhere near enough in the community to help or support those in need until they can get back on their feet. No amount of deregulation or downsizing of the government will solve that.

The fact of the matter is that, while I do not like the way the government has been going, it is still necessary. Many of the programs that some view as "socialist" are viewed as such thanks to the half-truths being spread by those it affects the most, spread by those whose greed know no bounds.

no single system can stand on its own - ever. In order to move forward and grow, we need a balanced system. Anything less and we fail.

[Solar Legion]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

Yeah, I can opt out, but what happens to my children, or my nephews and nieces. I can understand and do what I can to not feed into the evil. In my life, I have watched socialism progress. Today, is bad. How will it be when I die, and my child is left to deal with what I sat back and left him. I don't seak freedom for myself, as I am rational enough to understand that I will never see it. Enslaving my child for the comfort of not debating and being prosecuted by the masses, I won't except that. If only my great grandchild is around to see true freedom, then it will be worth all the debates in the world.

---

"True freedom" is a myth.

[Medhue Simoni]

Lets analyze your arguements.

 

1st - You say you are not a socialist, yet you promote it's ideologies.

2nd - You claim to know why people give to charities. Hardly an argument.

3rd - You assume the state should perform these "functions", without argument.

4th - You claim that the gold standard can't be enforced, yet it has been, not only in the US for decades, but in many other countries before the US, and it has been used for money more than anything else in history. Plus, the constitution clearly states that only gold and silver can be used as money.

5th - You claim to know that people need help to be free. I have no idea what 8 years you speak of. Even Reagon grew government.

6th - On the contrary, vast armies were assembled by the state to clear out the natives. The last of the natives in the colonies were directly cleared by government policies.

7th - You push the argument off onto private companies and claim the state has nothing to do with it. Does the state not tax these energies? Does the state not subsidize these energies? There is a big difference between fossil fuel energy and energy that comes from a solar panel or windmill. This is akin to buying a generator and yet never having to put gas in it, hence the production is free.

8th - Stating that just because some people still believe in slavery, is not proof that it was not a moral crusade.

9th - Somehow you either don't understand what printing money means, or you chose to ignore that the value of the dollar drops every single year. Maybe I worded it wrong and should have said purchasing power. The value of the dollar has dropped 95% since it was first created by the Federal Reserve in 1913. The Federal Reserves stated goal is constant inflation. Yet, before the Federal Reserve, we had constant deflation, which is the natural progression of this, as we find faster and better ways of making things.

10th - You seem to forget that like all nations, things change. Rome didn't have 1 constant set of rules during their whole existance.

11th - You seem to ignore that only the state can stop people from sueing companies that harm humans by destroying environments. If the state had upheld natural property rights, there would be far less environmental disasters.

The state creates poverty, as it needs the dependents to further it's growth. The state has every incentive to put more people into poverty, not the other way around.

 

 

[Solar Legion]

No dear - I don't promote its ideologies.

We're done here, seeing as you cannot respond without flat out lying through your fingers at each and every turn

Indeed, your response this time is full of nothing but the same half-truths that have been spouted time and time again by those willing to buy into the fiction that one extreme - YOUR extreme - is better than another.

Your fantasy world does not exist Medhue. It never has, it never will and until you're willing to be honest and stick to facts (such as the fact that there is only so much gold in the world and any currency based upon it would thus be finite) ...

Then there is no point in either of us responding any further.

[Izzabelha]

I have read yours and others posts thatt quote this fruitcake. I have never come across anyone so ignorant in my 1st or second life as to be so selfish and entitled that she results to name calling and accusatory, spin the bottle with the words and she thinks she comes out sounding half correct, or even educated. She laughs at all of us that she clains think we are duped into owning real land on sl, isn't the term more for the way we use our sl (she calls people her sisters all the time, well if they are not her rl sisters, who duped her into believing she has a cartoon family along with a cartoon cat she whined about like a contradictory speaker with oxymorons every other sentence). This person claims HER sl is important to her LOL ok so the cartoon world she thinks we are all blindsided in is a very important social outlet but it's ok because of the reason she gives...mmm no. I think it's hilarious how she brags about not spending any money here, which is fine, i have many sl friends who don't for whatever reason, but they respect others objects, sl homes, creative content (I would share Ramona if i could) and they don't frown upon the wonderful people that created second life for all to enjoy paying or not. To wonder why she feels the need to bash everyone on every forum post she replies to is to me a huge red flag of her rl, which I am sure what she says vs how it is has huge gaps. I think this person has rl self esteem issues. I actually feel sorry for her, no kidding, no sarcasm. I would even pitch in for a avatar for her. Seems like she gets a lot of crap in world for her to spew so much hate in the forums here. Sorry i replied to you but you hit it all on the head. She respects no one, no rules made by anyone, thinks she is entitled, feels free to name call and degrade others and yet she signs in to sl because all of us people built it for her and others, including ourselves to enjoy, yet we are paranoid and selfish to set our guidelines on what we pay for on a personal level for our own fun of sl. I don't look at sl as a game, and if she did, she would not claim it meant so much to her and whine about her cat. I create and what I use costs to create, but i SHOULD give it all away for free. OK sure.

Back on topic, eBay has seller fees, yet ebay is a venue and is software and also server space so an eBay store is? Delusional? Someone else pointed out that you pay sales tax for items you buy in stores. I am not sure or qualified about any other country, but usually the state where the "business" is it's those tax laws that are applied no matter who uses the product or their location in the world. Again, I don't view sl as a game, it is a social environment, but it's still a service, Facebook, Flickr and other virtual space has upgrades to a paid account for various reasons. Anywhere you post your original concepts, photos, products gives you rights for non distribution unless you state it can be.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

---

---

You really don't think that people in your "brave new world" wouldn't want privacy and the ability to keep strangers out of their homes?

You really think the general populace of SL could buy out LL?

you  honestly believe the teir paying people of SL would go on a "teir strike" because you said so?

You're nuttier than a fruit cake.

So tell me, since you think it should all be free in SL, who would be paying out of their own pocket for these servers, tech support, and maintenance?

---

why would they? i have plenty of privacy where i live .. no1 ever comes there unless i invite them .. if someone showed up id chat w/ em .. my sisters & i dont have ban lines up or any sortuv 'security' nonsense set up .. its paranoid .. ppl cant make messes in other ppls spaces .. they cant steal anything .. so what difference does it make if others hang out? why even consider it "mine"? this possessiveness & paranoia is ridiculous .. its just a game remember ??

 

yes! why not?

yes! what do they have to loose besides an expense? by boycotting tier the People could bring the corporate ogre to its knees ..

you think im nuts because you cant see beyond the very mindset or socioeconomic paradigm that oppresses you .. youre so thoroly inculcated to the dominance/submission culture thats collared you that you think that freedom is nuts .. whats nuts is people like you submissively accepting your subordinate status to your corporate overlords .. you have had your thinking so utterly twisted by your socialization that you think that life on your knees is freedom and that freedom is nuts .. & i say THATs "nuttier than a fruitcake"

all of us who play SL would pay .. in an earlier thread i very roughly estimated that it would cost each of us ~$15 per month to pay tech salaries & cover electricity & other expenses .. each of us would pay a monthly user fee & the toy economy would be abolished .. each resident would be equal, thered be no private 'ownership' of 'property' & no L$

thats my proposal .. mock it if you will .. but remember if you do that your reactionary objections only mark you as someone so abjectly submissive unto your oppressor that you appear pathetic to your free minded peers

Jeanne

 

 

---

It's been a while since I visited this thread and read more of the utter nonsense you spout.

FIrst not enough people woud boycott SL so you could have your pipe dream.  I woulnt'.

If SL were by strange chance taken over by users, the TOS and all licenses for content in SL would no longer be valid People would have to agree to whatever new terms there were.  You would see content creators leave in droves and take their content with them, including what you have in your inventory.  You could not stope them short of stealing their RL IP rights  You would see private estates disappear and most of the mainland.  Lastly most of the population of SL would leave too.

If there were no economy what incentive would there be to make the things you so much enjoy?  What incentive would there be for anyone to run a club or other entertainment venue, which assumes they couldl find content to do this? SInce you create nothing, and have not run any of your own venue's let me clue you in .  It takes work,  Sure people enjoy it, including mysefl, but I wouldn't enjoy it long if everything U make people like you could takeand do with as they please with it and I got nothing back from them. I assure you there is nothing you could offer me that I would want.

You said yourself that your husband would not allow you to spend any money on a 'computer game', so you would nto be able to be a part of your brave new world, unless you think you are so important that you would be allowed in for free!

I think you revealed your true character when you said earlier that you have a job that only pays for your living expenses which is not enough for you.  You are thinking about quitting and going back to where you were, where apparently someone was willing to provide for you for free in the manner you feel entitled to.  I submit that when you put  yourself in this postiion of obligation that you have no REAL freedom.