An appeal to intellectual honesty.. call it a TAX.

[Hilton Harpoon]

"Marketplace Commission (for delivered items)" xxxxxx$$$ Why doesn't SL call this a Sales Tax? Isn't this a virtual world? Worlds must have taxes right? (LOL) This has been going on for a while and I predicted it would happen on slexchange.com long before it was implemented.. It's sad to see this "metaverse" reflect RL in so many ways.. Pardon me for venting, but I hate to see all the potential and effort people were willing to put in to "this" go down the drain due to so many regulations. I thankfully have a life beyond SL. Peace

[Solar Legion]

Perhaps because it isn't a Sales Tax? Perhaps because Second Life is a computer program and Linden Lab a software company, thus making it illegal to call a Commission Fee a Tax?

And that is all it is - it's a commission fee. You want intellectual honesty? Quit comparing a piece of software to a country. There's a start.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Let's use some real "intellectual honesty".  The Second Life economy is modeled after a free enterprise economic society.  That means that the economy of SL depends on free enterprise......the users provide the fuel to run the economy.  Someone develops or creates a product for other users to obtain to make their SL a little better.  The users who want to take advantage of that product pay a "fee".......the amount of Lindens the creator charges for the product.  That's the base for the economic system in SL.  Linden Lab has provided two ways for the creators to get their products in the hands of the users who want the products.  The creators can open an in-world shop to sell their product or they can open a Market Place shop to sell their product.  Both ways have costs assoiated with them.  An in-world shop has land use fees or rent that must be paid to either LL or to the ower of the land the shop is located on.  The Market Place shop has no land owner to pay but they still have to pay LL for the shop.  There is no free ride for your shop.........very much like real life.  You can call it what you want (fee or tax).  It makes absolutely no difference since you have to pay someone for your shop location.   That is not at all unlike real life......nothing is free except your ideas.  A tax is associated with governments.........Linden Lab is not a government.  It's a private company doing business on the Internet.  They provide the space for anyone's shop to exist (be it in-world or Market Place).  That provision of space costs money and LL is perfectly entitled to recovering that money it costs them for that provision........and since LL is a "for profit" business they are also entitled to a profit.  That is what makes SL continue to exist.  LL not being a government charges a fee.......you could look at it as a tax but it is not simply because LL chooses to call it a fee.

There's a major difference in what a government can do and what a business can do.  Governments have no income other than taxes (not in the US, at least).  They cannot charge a fee..........only a tax.  A tax is for governments...........a fee is for business.  Any tax a business collects goes to a government and not themselves...fees can be for themselves.  The creators do not collect a tax (or fee) on their products..........LL takes it as a fee (known by the creators before hand) from the creators.  The users don't pay that fee in SL.......in real life the users pay that tax.  Intellectual honesty means being intellectually honest..........and you are not being intellectually honest.  You just don't like paying the fee to LL for you Market Place sales.  Get an in-world shop and pay someone other than LL that fee if it bothers you so much.

[Hilton Harpoon]

lol..

 

What is your excuse for the term land?

[Hilton Harpoon]

You missed the point of my post..

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Perhaps you might enlighten me to the point of your post.    All I saw was your objection of Market Place fees.......and your objection was because it was not called a "tax".  It's not a tax because it's a fee......companies don't charge taxes, governements charge taxes.  So, please, enlighten me. 

[Solar Legion]

What is your excuse for falling for a marketing ploy?

Hey - MMOs and other bits of software that give a visual representation of a landscape still call what is generated on the screen "land".

How about you try a bit harder hmm?

[Innula Zenovka]

Maybe they don't call their commission a "sales tax" for the same reason ebay don't use the term "sales tax" for what they call "selling fees" (at least in the UK), and for the same reason LL call the VAT they collect on my tier payments a "tax" and not a fee or commission.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

VAT is a tax.  Afterall, V=value, A=added, T=tax.  A tax is a tax..........a fee is a fee. 

That is "intectually honesty".  Anything else is not "intellectual honesty".  Call it what you want but also know what you are talking about when you call what you want.

[161488303349]

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Peggy Paperdoll wrote:

  It's not a tax because it's a fee......companies don't charge taxes, governements charge taxes.   

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^^this

[JeanneAnne]

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Hilton Harpoon wrote:

"Marketplace Commission (for delivered items)" xxxxxx$$$ Why doesn't SL call this a Sales Tax? Isn't this a virtual world? Worlds must have taxes right? (LOL) This has been going on for a while and I predicted it would happen on slexchange.com long before it was implemented.. It's sad to see this "metaverse" reflect RL in so many ways.. Pardon me for venting, but I hate to see all the potential and effort people were willing to put in to "this" go down the drain due to so many regulations. I thankfully have a life beyond SL. Peace

---

its possible to have a great time in SL w/out spending a cent of real money ..

 

you'll get dogpiled by merchants & content creators if you dis the SL toy economy ..

 

Jesus needs to show up in SL w/ a whip

 

 

Jeanne

 

[161488303349]

here is a paper on SL written by Cory Ondrejka in 2004, which lays out the linden vision not only for SL but also the wider Metaverse and its relationship with the realworld. it helps to explain why SL is made the way it is

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=538362

[JeanneAnne]

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Hilton Harpoon wrote:

lol..

 

What is your excuse for the term land?

---

"land" is just the new-speak for renting server space .. 'residents' dont 'own land' .. tier is rent on server space for code ..

LL has convinced SL players to adopt these terms that disguise whats really going on .. its a marketing gimmick & it works! ppl think they 'own' pixel space & put up ban lines & become all territorial .. LoL .. SL is a window in2 human self-delusion ..

Jeanne

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

 SL is a window in2 human self-delusion ..

Jeanne

 

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As are the forums, only more so.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

Hilton Harpoon wrote:

lol..

 

What is your excuse for the term land?

---

"land" is just the new-speak for renting server space .. 'residents' dont 'own land' .. tier is rent on server space for code ..

LL has convinced SL players to adopt these terms that disguise whats really going on .. its a marketing gimmick & it works! ppl think they 'own' pixel space & put up ban lines & become all territorial .. LoL .. SL is a window in2 human self-delusion ..

Jeanne

 

---

I don't think LL is fooling anyone.  People know that it is server space they are renting.  If no one rented any server space SL would be limited to a few sims and you wouldn't have anywhere to go to do the things you find entertaining.  If someone pays for the pixels its is their call to do do with them what they want, including not allowing you to use any or restrict how you use them, if they so choose.  Why would anyone pay for them if that were not the case?

The only one delusional here is you for thinking that SL could still exist if everything were free or that creators would create if anyone could take their stuff without asking.  It has never worked in RL, except in very small family or tribal units where even then they didn't allow another tribe or family come and help themselves to anything, but defended their territories. It won't work in SL either.

 

@ the OP

Xstreet >SLexchange>Marketplace has always charged a commission on sales and have always had rules and regulations. The fee has changed over the years but so has the price of everything. The fee is not a tax as only governments cab levy taxes..  Rules change too as needed.   So what exactly did you predict?  Let's be intellectually honest - nothing.

[Phil Deakins]

The commissions that LL charge on marketplace sales is not a sales tax. If it were, they would need to also charge it on inworld sales.

Inworld, LL charges a fee for the use of virtual land. Some people pay that fee and use the land to sell things. In the marketplace, LL could have used the same model - charge people to use the advertising space - but they chose to charge a fee on sales instead, which is both better for the advertiser, because s/he only pays if sales are made, and better for LL, because they get more people advertising there. Both charges are fees or commissions. neither are taxes. (Technically, the money charged on marketplace sales can be called a commission or a fee, but the money paid for the use of virtual land is a fee and not a commission.)

Charging a fee on successes (e.g. sales and clickthroughs) is common. Do any  search in Google (and other search engines), and you'll see advertisements on the results pages. Those advertisers only pay Google when someone clicks on their ads. If nobody clicks, nothing is paid. That's the equivalent of the marketplace fees/commissions.

On the other hand, go to may websites, and you'll see ads on the pages. Many of those advertisers pay for the advertising space on those sites, regardless of whether or not anyone actually clicks on the ads. That's the equivalent of paying a fee to LL for the use of virtual land. It's paying for space, like LL do inworld.

So there is no dishonesty in LL calling the marketplace payments 'commissions'. That's exactly what they are.

[JeanneAnne]

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

Hilton Harpoon wrote:

lol..

 

What is your excuse for the term land?

---

"land" is just the new-speak for renting server space .. 'residents' dont 'own land' .. tier is rent on server space for code ..

LL has convinced SL players to adopt these terms that disguise whats really going on .. its a marketing gimmick & it works! ppl think they 'own' pixel space & put up ban lines & become all territorial .. LoL .. SL is a window in2 human self-delusion ..

Jeanne

 

---

I don't think LL is fooling anyone.  People know that it is server space they are renting.  If no one rented any server space SL would be limited to a few sims and you wouldn't have anywhere to go to do the things you find entertaining.  If someone pays for the pixels its is their call to do do with them what they want, including not allowing you to use any or restrict how you use them, if they so choose.  Why would anyone pay for them if that were not the case?

The only one delusional here is you for thinking that SL could still exist if everything were free or that creators would create if anyone could take their stuff without asking.  It has never worked in RL, except in very small family or tribal units where even then they didn't allow another tribe or family come and help themselves to anything, but defended their territories. It won't work in SL either.

 

@ the OP

Xstreet >SLexchange>Marketplace has always charged a commission on sales and have always had rules and regulations. The fee has changed over the years but so has the price of everything. The fee is not a tax as only governments cab levy taxes..  Rules change too as needed.   So what exactly did you predict?  Let's be intellectually honest - nothing.

---

if people think about whats going on most realize that 'land' in SL is virtual and what theyre 'buying' is rented space on a server somewhere to store code .. but by promoting a terminology that disguises this fact LL fosters the false sense that one is 'buying' something tangible that they then 'own' .. this is a marketing gimmick that makes it more palatable for SL players to give LL money .. 'owning land' sounds better than 'renting server space' .. thats all .. people may know the difference but what theyre buying into is the illusion

over the weekend i was exploring around deserted sims .. many had businesses & residential areas .. some of the homes were very nice .. some had yellow ban lines around them but most didnt .. sometimes i would go to those that didnt & go in the houses & look around .. it didnt hurt anything .. i didnt track in mud on the carpet .. i didnt steal anything .. so i hav2 wonder what the point is of putting up yellow ban lines to keep people out .. of course ppl can put those lines up .. theyre able to if they want to cuz LL allows it  .. but what purpose do they serve? seems to me like all they do is display the paranoia of those who pay good money for the illusion of 'owning' a virtual house

so why cant SL be run like a "very small family or tribal unit"? id be into that !!

Jeanne

 

[Innula Zenovka]

The point is, I think, you're renting the use of code and server space to simulate virtual land (as opposed to using that same server space to host a website or whatever).   In general, when you're dealing with computers and computer programs and suchlike, the important thing isn't that it's code or what  it's stored on -- it's what the code actually does. 

I don't see why resticting access to your vitual land should be seen as any more odd than restricting access to your flickr albums or youtube channels or facebook pages, or parts of them -- it's all code on servers, after all.

[Qie Niangao]

... and, just in passing, those are concrete "albums", "channels", or "pages" no more than SL services are "land."

[Theresa Tennyson]

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JeanneAnne wrote:

so why cant SL be run like a "very small family or tribal unit"? id be into that !!

Jeanne

 

---

Ever see a Sam Shepard play?

[JeanneAnne]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

so why cant SL be run like a "very small family or tribal unit"? id be into that !!

Jeanne

 

---

Ever see a Sam Shepard play?

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i dont believe so Theresa .. altho i may have .. i like to see plays but often dont pay attention to who wrote them ..

Jeanne

 

[Marybeth Cooperstone]

I make my RL living as a tax lawyer, mostly writing tax laws for state and local governments and arguing about those laws in court. In general, the term "tax" refers only to money collected by a government (income, sales, property, etc.). Money collect by non-government entities, including Linden Labs, other software companies, and other organizations go by some other name such as commissions, fees, dues, etc. but not "tax".

For example, my homeowners collects dues, which I am legally obligated to pay. They use this money for maintenance of the privately owned roads in my neighborhood, among other things. Yet they do not and cannot call it a "tax". If LL ever collects a tax, that would be money that they collect on behalf of some government. But, at present, there is no such thing. The money that LL collects to maintain the infrastructure and other purposes may go to a "virtual government", and, as such it is very similar to a tax. But they are not a real government and therefore what they collect is not a tax.

MBC

Standard lawyers' disclaimer: The above is not legal advice and the reader and I am not in an attorney/client relationship.

Standard Marybeth disclaimer: When it comes to advice, you get what you pay for.

[JeanneAnne]

---

Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

I make my RL living as a tax lawyer, mostly writing tax laws for state and local governments and arguing about those laws in court. In general, the term "tax" refers only to money collected by a government (income, sales, property, etc.). Money collect by non-government entities, including Linden Labs, other software companies, and other organizations go by some other name such as commissions, fees, dues, etc. but not "tax".

For example, my homeowners collects dues, which I am legally obligated to pay. They use this money for maintenance of the privately owned roads in my neighborhood, among other things. Yet they do not and cannot call it a "tax". If LL ever collects a tax, that would be money that they collect on behalf of some government. But, at present, there is no such thing. The money that LL collects to maintain the infrastructure and other purposes may go to a "virtual government", and, as such it is very similar to a tax. But they are not a real government and therefore what they collect is not a tax.

MBC

Standard lawyers' disclaimer: The above is not legal advice and the reader and I am not in an attorney/client relationship.

Standard Marybeth disclaimer: When it comes to advice, you get what you pay for.

---

"If LL ever collects a tax, that would be money that they collect on behalf of some government. But, at present, there is no such thing."

doesnt LL collect VAT from euros?

Jeanne

 

[Marybeth Cooperstone]

"doesnt LL collect VAT from euros?"

Maybe so. I should have added that to my knowledge here in the US it collects no tax. I wouldn't be surprized if some states were trying to collect a tax from them, but I don't know of any that do.

If you make money on SL activities above your costs (including computer, etc.) then you may owe US or state income tax (if in the US), but that is up to the individual, not to LL.

(previous disclaimers apply)

MBC

[Peggy Paperdoll]

VAT is a tax.  LL collects the tax for the governments that impose the tax on it's citizens or users of a service in their country.  LL must collect the tax or cease doing business in the country that has the tax in place.  The user, also, must pay the tax or cease using the service..........there is no "opt out".  The tax is separate above and beyond the fees LL charges for it's service and is listed as a tax (probably VAT but I don't live in a country that imposes a VAT so I can't be sure how it's stated, but it must be separated from the fees).  It's not at all unlike a sales tax people in the United States pay for products and services that the tax is applied to........Target collects the tax on products that are subject to the tax for all consumers (it's listed as a tax on the reciept you recieve).  You cannot refuse to pay the tax without refusing to buy the product(s).  Target doesn't pocket that money........they must pay the taxing authority.  They are merely collecting the tax for the government and they must hand that money over to the government (or face criminal charges).  LL does the same with VAT.  The government gets the money, not the company.  The consumer pays it to the company only because the government requires the company to collect it.