PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 SL Exchange! That's the one I'd forgotten :-) Oh absolutely there were occassional problems, which is why I said "or there was prompt support ...". Nothing's perfect. The expectation was that it would work nearly all the time though. I do not have that expectation about the marketplace. I won't trust my money to it as a customer, won't list items as a merchant and won't recommend it to anyone else. The question I can't answer is whether it really is only barely functional or it's just that we hear about a greater percentage of the failures that would occur anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Why are you shouting at me? And anyway, I said I believed it was the marketplace that caused problems, not magic boxes. (I don't know what the breedables problem might be, but whatever it is I'm probably spared it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spica Inventor Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 "I'm still trying to get things together. If it's affecting you, the vast majority of people who sell things should be selling things normally, while you're seemingly getting left behind. The more people that give me input on the situation the better I can draw conclusions. Some people I've talked to thought I was crazy and it was just market fluctuations, b ut I'm starting to find people who have had the same happen to me" Well actually overall I think my sales are about the same. Nothing is obvious, but it just seems to me that there is a bit more erraticism where there are no sales and then alot of sales as if like a day, or a few days in a row of failure to deliver is being pushed forward to days where delivery is more successful for the customers. "Well, looking at amazon, a great way to get people to find what they're looking for is similar items. Amazon has a feature that lets people see what people have viewed after viewing a listing. It crowdsources the problem as relevancy is determined by users instead of an algorithm that needs constant adjustment. I'm not advocating a system like Amazons, but I'm saying that a crowdsourced social solution is probably the best, whether it be similar items, other viewed items, a tagging system by customers, or something I'm not thinking of. It's not an easy problem to fix, nearly 3.5 million items have been listed on XStreet and SLMP and the list grows rapidly." I do appreciate that feature on Amazon, but don't use it religiously as the 'crowdsourced' list just seems to be a repeat of the word search lists (only in a slightly different order perhaps) (that defaults in order of sales volume first and foremost just like in the SL Marketplace by and large.) so it's just stuff I've already looked at anyway. Largely superfluous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 >Why are you shouting at me? Sorry about that. I'm just used to forums where the threading is different, so I clicked at the bottom of the thread, and that happened to be you. I understand there are other people who have looked at the box question and found essentially what I also found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Spica Inventor wrote: "As for 3, I'm not sure. LL needs a better way to determine if customers are happy with a product as opposed to how well they sell. Lots of people buy several cheap things and are only happy with a few of them and throw the others out because they aren't happy with them. Then, those items the customer wasn't happy with still get treated as a good item with the current relevancy system that weighs things by views and sales". No no no no. Even though I realize that relatively few people do ratings and especially reviews of the products they purchase on The Marketplace, the idea of pushing 'overpriced' products to the top of relevance search lists is abhorrant to me. The truth is that the "cheap things" are more likely to have lower customer ratings as a general tendency anyway. And it seems that LL already push higher priced things further up on the relevance search list to some degree as it stands presently. First, let me say that, of course sales are gonna be erratic. The site could barely stay up, for more than 2 week straight. You can't really compare sales for anything in that kind of environment. Rating and reviews are now a pain in the butt, all because LL had to listen to the complainers. It was like the first time they ever listened to any of us and they chose the worst topic to actually do something about. Xstreet's strategy was WAY better for every1. Yes, people could just vote you down, but those votes always became irrelevant as time went on, because lots of customers rated items. Now, no1 rates items. Heck, just finding the rating section is a chore. Even when you do find it, the actual items you purchased will be pages back, if you don't rate it right away, as enhancements are also included. Rating products you purchased should be 2nd nature. Now, if some1 gives you a bad review, you are just stuck with it until some other customer actually finds where to review it. We won't even know about the bad review unless we check every single product regularly. As far as how products should be listed, Xstreet also had it right. The default results are just a reference, and there are options to change this afterward. So, if some1 is looking for cheap, it's 1 click away. To purposely show cheap items by default is just plain stupid from a marketing standpoint. You are guaranteeing that you will make less money. Now, best selling is not a bad way to go, but you still should filter out the cheapest items, as those can still easily be found. Just my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 I'm kind of starting to think that it would be better if LL just handles the grid. Independent users and businesses seem to do a much better job at everything else. Just look at the Deformer project. Maybe that should be the model for everything. If enough people are willing to pay for a feature, it gets done. If enough people care about a bug, it will get fixed and not languish for years. I mean, some1 at LL is making all these bad decisions. I've seen many bugs fixed and yet never get implemented. Now, maybe there are unforseen things that I can't see, but why not fricken tell us then, instead of letting us plan for a fix that is never, ever going to happen. At least with the viewer out of their hands, we'd have some control and get feedback from the people we pay to fix something or improve something. Yeah, we pay LL tons of money, but they obviously feel no obligation to tell us anything at all. If you ask me, they are treating SL like it's a normal platform where they make big announcements and WOW every1. They need to drop that attitude altogether. As we can see, they rarely WOW us anyways. Although, I did like the whole customizable button thingy. I've never liked the NDA. They are asking us to help them, and then telling us "We'll sue you if you say anything". This is not how you ask for help. I would never in a million years tell some1 that is freely giving me their time that I will sue them if they talk. I might ask them to pretty please keep this on the down low, but I'd never insult them by asking for an NDA. I don't give a flying F how other companies do it. It's not like some1 talking about it will ruin them or any1 else. It's just corporate BS. If anything, us talking about new stuff keeps the excitement and morale up for every1 else that is not involved. And for godsakes, some1 has to inform the others, cause even when LL releases things, they do little to nothing to inform any1. Heck, they have a hard time keeping the Wiki up to date. I saw the internal messages, and my thought was, "Hey, I pay you. You should be impressing me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toysoldier Thor Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: ,,,, I've never liked the NDA. They are asking us to help them, and then telling us "We'll sue you if you say anything". This is not how you ask for help. I would never in a million years tell some1 that is freely giving me their time that I will sue them if they talk. I might ask them to pretty please keep this on the down low, but I'd never insult them by asking for an NDA. I don't give a flying F how other companies do it. It's not like some1 talking about it will ruin them or any1 else. It's just corporate BS. If anything, us talking about new stuff keeps the excitement and morale up for every1 else that is not involved. And for godsakes, some1 has to inform the others, cause even when LL releases things, they do little to nothing to inform any1. Heck, they have a hard time keeping the Wiki up to date. I saw the internal messages, and my thought was, "Hey, I pay you. You should be impressing me". As silly as LL's NDA's are considering the fact that LL asking their own customer for free and un-compensated help to move LL's company and product lines forward from their own customers and then threatens them with legal action..... what is more silly is how many of LL's customers are dumb enough to sign into these ridiculous NDAs. So, as long as there are enough LL customers that are so in love with all things LL and be involved in LL's development that they will sign these NDAs.... LL will keep getting these customers to sign them. The NDAs would likely stop if LL noticed that none of their customers are willing to be disrespected with these NDAs and risk having legal action against them if they break their GAG ORDER just once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calamari Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Normally I would be looking at this question from a merchants point of view, but on Monday I start my first full time RL job in over a year and a half. It's a huge relief knowing I no longer have to depend on SL for tying to make a tiny income to try to feed my self. The other nice thing about a full time RL job is that I will only be working 40 to 50 hours a week and actually have days off. So at this point I'm burned out on SL and dealing with all the marketplace issues. What I'd like to see for a road map is LL's plan for making the marketplace some thing they would actual be willing to advertise to attract and keep content creators. Even if I just want to keep running my store for fun, the current selling points for doing so are not to compelling. Little or no communication. Horrible customer service. Unreliable service. Lack of basic business tools. Noeconomic or market info. No customizable store fronts. Get items flagged and removed with no explanation. Pay for listing enhancements, even when the market is down. Search... "but I still haven't found what I'm looking for" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WADE1 Jya Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Yeah I'm just not drinking free labor koolaid. Little story to share while we wait for Linden reply to the thread: ***redacted i'll save it for later*** :catvery-happy: Would be nice if we heard a roadmap for anything. I wonder not just about Marketplace, but I wonder about the roadmap of Second Life as a product also. Without knowledge of any Linden operations, planning I might do for a future here is rather limited. So where's that roadmap Lindens? ...fixing the data corruption issue, or at least telling us best method to get to work repairing it ourselves would be good for starters. I guess I'm not really going to be holding my breath for any reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanara Zenovka Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 WADE1 Jya wrote: So where's that roadmap Lindens? ...fixing the data corruption issue, or at least telling us best method to get to work repairing it ourselves would be good for starters. /waves and points up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anaiya Arnold Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 WADE1 Jya wrote: ***redacted i'll save it for later*** :catvery-happy: I miss all the good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Kampu Oyen wrote: whereas, if you use DD, you run the risk of your user account and/or inventory being borked (which may actually mean more things to go wrong by comparison). Please Josh, not this "DD screws with my inventory" FUD again. DD does nothing with your inventory or your account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polenth Yue Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: I'm kind of starting to think that it would be better if LL just handles the grid. Independent users and businesses seem to do a much better job at everything else. I can't say my experience with third party market sites has been great. They offer low sales and disappear quickly because the owners get bored. The only thing setting Xstreet apart is it was sold by the bored owner rather than closed. Which isn't to say I think the marketplace is perfect. There's a lot they can do to improve it. But I know if they closed it tomorrow, my business would suffer. Residents are great at short term enthusiasm, but not so great at the longterm. You need the longterm for a market site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Polenth Yue wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: I'm kind of starting to think that it would be better if LL just handles the grid. Independent users and businesses seem to do a much better job at everything else. I can't say my experience with third party market sites has been great. They offer low sales and disappear quickly because the owners get bored. The only thing setting Xstreet apart is it was sold by the bored owner rather than closed. Which isn't to say I think the marketplace is perfect. There's a lot they can do to improve it. But I know if they closed it tomorrow, my business would suffer. Residents are great at short term enthusiasm, but not so great at the longterm. You need the longterm for a market site. Well, you have a point, but I would say that the point is dependent on incentive. As far as I know, Xstreet wasn't going anywhere as the creator made a good amount of money running it. The TPVs, to my astonishment, have no business plan, and not 1 ever has, which I think is definitely the wrong way to go. It's not about greed or money really, but long term stability. Sure, you can easily get a few people to do things just because they enjoy it. This will eventually end tho because of time and economic factors. With just some basic income streams from features that every1 benefits from, every1 makes out in the end. For TPVs, I think this is an extremely simple concept. TPVs fill the areas that LL neglects or just plain does wrong. Classifieds in the LL's viewer are pretty useless, and a TPV could easily make a better 1 as those people actually use SL. Search is another area where LL lacks massively. Marketing is another area that LL is clueless in. If you ask me, a TPV could easily far surpass LL in all those areas, again, because the people that work on them actually use the platform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 >DD does nothing with your inventory or your account. On this thread, anyway, who even said that it did? That was not the point being made. The point being: DD and boxes are each subject to different types of borking. Boxes are affected by borked regions and DD is affected by borked account and/or borked inventory. Where the bork originates or why is a totally separate matter, and whether DD borks anything at all shouldn't even matter in terms of understanding why the different types of susceptibility to borking might be important to the question of comparative utility between the 2 systems. BTW: I would better like it if you should call me "Kampu", or "Ralph" or "Brooke". Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: For TPVs, I think this is an extremely simple concept. TPVs fill the areas that LL neglects or just plain does wrong. Classifieds in the LL's viewer are pretty useless, and a TPV could easily make a better 1 as those people actually use SL. Search is another area where LL lacks massively. Marketing is another area that LL is clueless in. If you ask me, a TPV could easily far surpass LL in all those areas, again, because the people that work on them actually use the platform. I can't see how a TPV could improve classifieds or search. That sort of thing has to be grid-wide by its nature, and so server-side. I don't think I know what you mean about marketing either - that a TPV developer should market SL rather than just their viewer? Surely all these grid-wide things are better-done by someone/anyone running a grid, and that's one of the attractions of opensim? @ Kampu - sorry about my last post, I really thought you meant me. I understand now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 PeterCanessa Oh wrote: I can't see how a TPV could improve classifieds or search. That sort of thing has to be grid-wide by its nature, and so server-side. I don't think I know what you mean about marketing either - that a TPV developer should market SL rather than just their viewer? Surely all these grid-wide things are better-done by someone/anyone running a grid, and that's one of the attractions of opensim? Well, all the regions are on webpages, with all their information. All the viewer is doing is sorting those. SL classifed are done by who pays the most amount and then LL did that funky thing with them also. A TPV could do classifieds much differently, bringing more merchants in the mix. What I mean by Marketing is not for SL, but for the merchants. I don't have any major ideas about this, but it is a fact that SL has no marketing opportunities for merchants or event holders, other than classifieds and that spammed events thing. I do envision something more like a scrolling window, or ticker that shows current events going on now, or something like that. It could just be a window that users choose to have open or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Well, all the regions are on webpages, with all their information. All the viewer is doing is sorting those. SL classifed are done by who pays the most amount and then LL did that funky thing with them also. A TPV could do classifieds much differently, bringing more merchants in the mix. What I mean by Marketing is not for SL, but for the merchants. I don't have any major ideas about this, but it is a fact that SL has no marketing opportunities for merchants or event holders, other than classifieds and that spammed events thing. I do envision something more like a scrolling window, or ticker that shows current events going on now, or something like that. It could just be a window that users choose to have open or not. Ahh, that's what the problem would be, I think. The regions aren't on 'web pages' but servers with an extremely large capacity between them. Same with search and classified information. All the searching, sorting, etc. is done on those servers, otherwise we'd be downloading almost everything to our own PCs! All the viewer does - so all a TPV could improve - is display the results that the server(s) provide. Marketing could work though. It's obvious to see the advantage it'd give merchants. The only question there is whether it would appeal to customers or whether they'd just switch to a different viewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted May 4, 2012 Author Share Posted May 4, 2012 Kampu Oyen wrote: >DD does nothing with your inventory or your account. On this thread, anyway, who even said that it did? You did in this post http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/So-looking-ahead-what-s-the-roadmap-for-the-Marketplace/m-p/1517455#M22635 " if you use DD, you run the risk of your user account and/or inventory being borked" and NO, DD is NOT affected by inventory any more than a magic box is. They're all just pointers to an asset in a database and it's nothing to do with one's own inventory since the items are uploaded to MP. but anyway, as i've said, this thread isn't supposed to be about DD problems or MB problems or DD vs MB but about LL's roadmap. There are plenty of other threads to discuss DD vs MB etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 PeterCanessa Oh wrote: Ahh, that's what the problem would be, I think. The regions aren't on 'web pages' but servers with an extremely large capacity between them. Same with search and classified information. All the searching, sorting, etc. is done on those servers, otherwise we'd be downloading almost everything to our own PCs! All the viewer does - so all a TPV could improve - is display the results that the server(s) provide. I don't mean to be argumentive, but actually, every single parcel has it's own webpage with every single object you choose to show on it. So, just like google searches and sorts webpages, a TPV could do the same thing. See, here is 1 of my parcels on a private region. http://world.secondlife.com/place/55b9859b-36d5-d8c6-4099-19ed4ced93ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterCanessa Oh Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I never knew there was a parcel page like that, thanks. When were they introduced? The problem remains though that your TPV would have to dowload, sort and search terrabytes of data to find anything. I for one don't have the disk space. Outside the USA I don't suppose many people have the bandwidth either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 " if you use DD, you run the risk of your user account and/or inventory being borked" I can see how that might be unclear out of context. You run the risk of your account or inventory being borked whether you use DD, magic box, both, or neither. But magic boxes can deliver while the owner's personal inventory is unavailable (tested by accident), which no one has shown to be the case with unfindable inventory folders pertaining to DD. This makes DD an additional risk for inventory borking; not necessarily an additional cause of inventory borking. I'm sorry if this was not clear before. Is it clear now? The idea that items are equally available due to loading to MP does not bear even the most basic test of trying to get box-listed items to deliver while a box is unrezzed (try it), so there's no reason I've been given to believe that items to be delivered by DD do not effectively reside inside an inventory folder much as they would otherwise reside in a rezzed box. That is, they ARE loaded to MP, but only if they are available to load either from a box or from an inventory folder. I appreciate that you want to look forward to "the road map". So do I. I have plenty of ideas such as topologically impossible wraparound bubble sims to be used for gaming purposes, and even a possible way to simulate short bits of time travel by applying saved and projected game-state data to allow different player to effectively interact with different points in a narrative stream even as it is being formed. I got me buckets o' this stuff. Some of it would be bound to stick eventually. But I'm not even willing to discuss it with Rodvik face-to-face over a free steak dinner and champagne until he cuts the weakest link out of his chain of command. First things first is the first lesson that LL needs to learn, and I think it's better that we stay on message until it sinks in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Hancroft Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Kampu Oyen wrote: >DD does nothing with your inventory or your account. On this thread, anyway, who even said that it did? That was not the point being made. The point being: DD and boxes are each subject to different types of borking. Boxes are affected by borked regions and DD is affected by borked account and/or borked inventory. Where the bork originates or why is a totally separate matter, and whether DD borks anything at all shouldn't even matter in terms of understanding why the different types of susceptibility to borking might be important to the question of comparative utility between the 2 systems. BTW: I would better like it if you should call me "Kampu", or "Ralph" or "Brooke". Thanks. Miss Sassy is right, Josh, this thread is about the roadmap for the Marketplace. Where it's going, how it's going to get there, etc. We all know you think the magic boxes are perfect. Also...for the love of god let's STOP using the word "bork," OK? You used it 7 times in the above post! It's not even a REAL word! I don't know who started using that word to define the broken state of the marketplace, but it needs to be stopped. We have cross linked listings. NOT borked listings. We have scrambled listings. NOT borked listings. This word is driving me crazy! Let's use a REAL word now, okay people? <the above is for everybody...not just Josh/Kampu> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rival Destiny Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 It's a cultural thing....we are on the internet...where words evolve. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=borked the language is = Netlish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampu Oyen Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 I'd also like to have seen Sassy's thread stay about Sassy's topic. But importantly inaccurate things were being said about the function of the boxes. If that hadn't happened, I'd have stayed away from the thread. If you have a better word than "bork", I'll certainly consider using it instead, on the next thread that is intended to be about something else, and which subtly begins to degenerate into a thread of baseless propaganada about how the boxes, themselves, have some kind of inherent flaw that DD allegedly fixes (despite every possible kind of evidence to the contrary). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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