Ban all non SL viewers, stop stealing

[Medhue Simoni]

Although, I do like some features in TPVs, whether SL has them or not is of no real concern to me.

This recent TedTalk has a section about cheating and what it means to disconnect something to tokens or obscure 3d objects and away from thinking it is money.

[Medhue Simoni]

When you think about the conclusions from the video, and you are a merchant, how smart do you think it make to have your display with no price. I mean look at all these boxed products that have no price on them. LL even promoted this kind of display.

[Pamela Galli]

Really an impressive video Medhue.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Nataly Moonwall wrote:

Well...my question is: Linden Lab can block logins from these known viewers with

copybot

capability? 

from

what I

 

heard they are able to do it. This would help a lot to prevent the content theft and put the things harder to the thieves

---

Yes, they can, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere since, as I understand it, ripper viewers normally announce themselves whatever legitimate viewer -- which could quite easily be the Official Viewer -- they're based on.   

 

[Medhue Simoni]

Thanks! Imagine if LL made it so you had to click an agreement to a moral code of conduct everytime you logged in? Something very short and easy to read. The video really makes you think.

[Vick Forcella]

---

Medhue Simoni wrote:

 

TedTalk

---

Interesting presentation. It appears to be proof  for what we already know.

 

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

<<the thing is that NOTHING has been done from LL>>

LL has, and will, block TPV's that are known to violate TOS in any way. 

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

Awesome video, I like that guy.

[Perrie Juran]

Fascinating Video

Thanks for posting it.

Perhaps the biggest "token" that we deal with is "anonymity."

A locksmith once told me. "The main purpose of locks is to help honest people stay honest."

[JeanneAnne]

---

Nataly Moonwall wrote:

Well...my question is: Linden Lab can block logins from these known viewers with copybot

capability? 

from what I

 

heard they are able to do it. This would help a lot to prevent the content theft and put the things harder to the thieves

---

The cartoons of stuff in SL are code .. & code by its very nature is copyable .. You can make it difficult for unsophistocated ppl to copy code .. but savvy ppl will always be able to do so .. So why not just quit caring if code gets copied .. its going to be anyway .. it happens all the time .. Laws & shyte dont prevent it .. So just flow w/ it & quit obsessing

Jeanne

[Nataly Moonwall]

I wonder why topics like this get always the same answers: "copybot is not going to stop", "nothing can be done", " they will copy anyway", etc... I KNOW that copybot is not going to stop, i'm talking about the measures that could be taken to reduce a lot the content theft and make things harder for botters. For example block malicious viewers (that's all) and more stringent disciplinary actions (at least take a look to filed reports against copybotters...) As well i think that LL should take actions regarding that web with tones of copybotted stuff to download, coming from their server.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Nataly Moonwall wrote:

I wonder why topics like this get always the same answers: "

copybot

is not going to stop", "nothing can be done", " they will copy anyway", etc... I KNOW that

copybot

is not going to stop,

i

'm talking about the measures that could be taken to

reduce

a lot the content theft and make things harder for

botters

. For example block malicious viewers (that's all) and 

more

stringent

 

disciplinary actions (at least take a look to

filed

reports against

copybotters

...) As well

i

think that LL should take actions regarding that web with

tones

of

copybotted

stuff to download, coming from their server.

---

The problem is, though, Nataly, that, while LL can -- and, as far as I know, do -- stop known copybot and griefer viewers from logging in, that isn't a great deal of use, since it's simple enough for a malicious viewer to disguise itself as something innocuous.    At the moment, they apparently report themselves as Phoenix or Firestorm because the people who make them take those viewers and adapt them, but the people who make malicious viewers could just  as easily base them on the Official Viewer.   Then they'd report themselves as being that.

And, even if LL were to ban all TPVs and revert to having a closed source viewer, then people who wanted to steal stuff would simply have to do what they used to do before the viewer was open-sourced -- that is, download a freely available piece of software that has a perfectly legitimate use in 3-D game and virtual world design, install it on their PCs, and use it to steal stuff after it reached their PC rather than while it was being transmitted.

In other words, banning all non SL viewers would achieve nothing other than annoying a lot of people and completely wrecking the businesses of anyone -- like me -- who makes RLV stuff.    

Copybotters predate the viewer being open-sourced.   The one is nothing to do with the other.

 

[Nataly Moonwall]

---

Innula Zenovka wrote:

The problem is, though, Nataly, that, while LL can -- and, as far as I know, do -- stop known

copybot

 and

griefer

viewers from logging in, that isn't a great deal of use, since it's simple enough for a malicious viewer to disguise itself as something innocuous.    At the moment, they apparently report themselves as Phoenix or Firestorm because the people who make them take those viewers and adapt them 

---

Thanks for this info Innula

[WADE1 Jya]

Just wanted to drop my word in this thread. Although there is some amazing alternative viewers out there, unfortunately they are a gaping wide security flaw. I would love to see Linden Lab closesource it and ban them all. Prosecute any and all attempts with the felony of 'unauthorized network access'. It would be well worth the temporary bleed off of disgruntled residents leaving to greatly enhance the security of Second Life... security which at present is essentially nonexistent.

I know I'll probably get flamed by all the hardcore fans of alt viewers for this comment... but whatever :matte-motes-impatient:

(Don't worry, Lindens will never ban them anyway, because they love the concept of getting people to work for free.... and by now they are probably totally dependent on the huge pool of free labor endlessly supplied by the alternative viewer teams.)

[JeanneAnne]

---

WADE1 Jya wrote:

Just wanted to drop my word in this thread. Although there is some amazing alternative viewers out there, unfortunately they are a gaping wide security flaw. I would love to see Linden Lab closesource it and ban them all. It would be well worth the temporary bleed off of disgruntled residents leaving to greatly enhance the security of Second Life... security which at present is essentially nonexistent.

I know I'll probably get flamed by all the hardcore fans of alt viewers for this comment... but whatever :matte-motes-impatient:

(Don't worry, Lindens will never ban them anyway, because they love the concept of getting people to work for free.... and by now they are probably totally dependent on the huge pool of free labor endlessly supplied by the alternative viewer teams.)

---

LLs viewer2 simply didnt work for me .. If they banned Firestorm i'd be gone .. and so would tens of thousands of SL players .. In fact, I think that the tvp could hold LL hostage .. by telling LL that they were going to use a feature LL didnt like or else .. disable the tvp viewer .. If several of the most popular tvp makers did this they could drive LL outuv business

I dont intend to flame you .. its just that LLs own viewers are inferior to tvps.. plain & simple

I'm glad you realize about LL getting ppl to do their development work for free .. Actually its worse than that .. they get others to do their jobs for them then charge them upload fees & tier for their effort .. LL is as ruthless & rapacious a corporation as any other

Jeanne

[Innula Zenovka]

Which is all well and good, but copybots were a problem in 2006, before the viewer was  opensourced in 2007.

 

[Czari Zenovka]

---

JeanneAnne wrote:

---

WADE1 Jya wrote:

Just wanted to drop my word in this thread. Although there is some amazing alternative viewers out there, unfortunately they are a gaping wide security flaw. I would love to see Linden Lab closesource it and ban them all. It would be well worth the temporary bleed off of disgruntled residents leaving to greatly enhance the security of Second Life... security which at present is essentially nonexistent.

I know I'll probably get flamed by all the hardcore fans of alt viewers for this comment... but whatever :matte-motes-impatient:

(Don't worry, Lindens will never ban them anyway, because they love the concept of getting people to work for free.... and by now they are probably totally dependent on the huge pool of free labor endlessly supplied by the alternative viewer teams.)

---

LLs viewer2 simply didnt work for me .. If they banned Firestorm i'd be gone .. and so would tens of thousands of SL players .. In fact, I think that the tvp could hold LL hostage .. by telling LL that they were going to use a feature LL didnt like or else .. disable the tvp viewer .. If several of the most popular tvp makers did this they could drive LL outuv business

I dont intend to flame you .. its just that LLs own viewers are inferior to tvps.. plain & simple

I'm glad you realize about LL getting ppl to do their development work for free .. Actually its worse than that .. they get others to do their jobs for them then charge them upload fees & tier for their effort .. LL is as ruthless & rapacious a corporation as any other

Jeanne

---

I second what Jeanne said.  In the recent interview with Oz Linden and Jessica Lyon of Firestorm/Phoenix, it was noted that the LL v2/3 is number 3 in resident use.  There wouldn't just be a "temporary bleed off" of residents - there would be a LOT leaving, me included.  I absolutely, positively, cannot stomach the LL viewer.

I'm not sure if this was prior to the open sourcing, not sure how it could not be otherwise but maybe someone else would know, in 2007 I was using Nicholaz version of the LL 1.x viewers.  Whenever LL made an update, Nicholaz soon followed with a viewer that looked identical to the LL viewer, but worked better.  So TPV viewers have been around a long time.

No flaming here - everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

I don't think it would be a temporary bleed at all.

It doesn't take long for new members to figure out how bad the LL viewer performs. If it weren't for TPV's, people would get fed up and leave on a continual basis.

The only way I can see this working is if LL actually hired all the excellent TPV developers. They are totally out of touch with what users want, as evidenced by the fact that the LL viewer still lacks many features that have been available in other viewers for years.

[Kampu Oyen]

Maybe LL could resolve the discrepancy just by buying out all the TPV's and gradually destroying their utility. 

[Naughty Caramel]

Czari Zenovka wrote:

I second what Jeanne said.  In the recent interview with Oz Linden and Jessica Lyon of Firestorm/Phoenix, it was noted that the LL v2/3 is number 3 in resident use. 

There wouldn't just be a "temporary bleed off" of residents - there would be a LOT leaving, me included.

  I absolutely, positively, cannot stomach the LL viewer.

I'm not sure if this was prior to the open sourcing, not sure how it could not be otherwise but maybe someone else would know, in 2007 I was using Nicholaz version of the LL 1.x viewers.  Whenever LL made an update, Nicholaz soon followed with a viewer that looked identical to the LL viewer, but worked better.  So TPV viewers have been around a long time.

No flaming here - everyone is entitled to their opinion.

---

Edited because I hit "Post" instead of 'Quote'

 

This discussion was had somewhere else.  The consensus there was that if there were no TPVs, people would suck it up & use the LL viewer.  While most people love their main viewer, they love SL even more.

I haven't used an LL viewer since 1.23

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

They would still have to make the viewer closed source and alter the code enough to prevent any kind of spoof viewer from connecting to the grid using the old source code+tweaks.

[WADE1 Jya]

---

Kampu Oyen wrote:

Maybe LL could resolve the discrepancy just by buying out all the TPV's and gradually destroying their utility. 

---

This is probably how they would do it. Classic Linden style haha :catvery-happy:

 

thanks for kind discussion people. last time i put that opinion out there some people really flipped out on me :matte-motes-bashful:

sure we'd have some issues still, but closesource combined with aggressive prosecution/litigation of offenders would weed out all but the most persistent hardcore criminals, we wouldn't have so much crime of opportunity where it is done simply because it is easy.

Linden Lab just hiring on the best of TPVs and then close sourcing it is probably way to go.

If they do plan on ever scaling Second Life up significantly (these days I kind of doubt it), it would be smart to tighten this up so there is only their inhouse viewers available... as SL would be targeted for many other crimes than just content theft (stealing credit card info, identity theft, malware, keyloggers, etc). I think loose viewers are a crime enabler. Just as Macs start to get hacked now once they are now popular & commonplace, & we see PlayStation network got hacked, a big part of the 'safety' of SL is just that it is too small; not on the radar of organized crime.

[Czari Zenovka]

I saw a class offered today at a large SL school on the subject of What are Copybotters and How Can We Protect Ourselves Against Them (paraphrased from memory).  Some basic points that came out of this class from an instructor very well-versed in the subject:

*Since LL went open source, there is no going back.  The code is out there.

*Banning TPVs would not only NOT solve the copybot issue but some great features offered in TPVs were eventually adopted for the LL viewer.  One example cited was multiple attachment points for avatars.

*Bottom line was that there really is no way to stop copybotting entirely.  As merchants there are some things we can do to deter a copybotter and have him go elsewhere and if we are copybotted, immediately submit a DMCA.   The instructor and several students all said after filing a DMCA that the copybotter was gone from SL within hours, even on a weekend.

Even after this entire class, someone said the only way to stop copybotters was to ban all TPVs. /facepalms since this was one of the first points of the class.  The response was, again, that would not solve copybotting and it would likely cause SL to die a slow death due to their slowness in releasing updates to their viewer that are desired by residents.

[Innula Zenovka]

---

Rosemaery

Lorefield wrote:

They would still have to make the viewer closed source and alter the code enough to prevent any kind of spoof viewer from connecting to the grid using the old source code+tweaks.

---

But the viewer was closed source back in 2006, when copybot first became an issue.   The viewer was not open-sourced until January 2007.

Making the viewer closed source again would do no more than mildly inconvenience would-be content thieves.  It would  no more prevent their activities than it did before the viewer was open-sourced. 

 

[Rosemaery Lorefield]

That is my opinion also. I wasn't talking about copybotting, I was responding to someone who wants TPV's banned because they think it would stop copybotting.