Prokofy Neva

Yeah, I've watched this morph into "buy my extortion-priced land" into "buy my trump sign land". There is a long history of the use of political signage in SL to grief people in the hopes that PC Lindens will let it pass.

So if this is really a new rule, I'll try abuse-reporting a ginormous "BLACK LIVES MATTER" sign many stories tall, with multiple other signs, which then prompted someone across from it to respond to this giant sign with an "ALL LIVES MATTER". I personally support "Black Lives Matter," except for violence and looting, and don't think "All Lives Matters" is any kind of valid counterargument, but what this original BLM sign is really about is trying to force a land sale. If I didn't know the months of back story here, I might think it was authentic. The owner of this land first tried everything possible to force me to sell parcels of my land adjacent to hers that she felt she absolutely had to have. Since they were rented or likely to be rented, I didn't wish to sell them. I didn't like her ban lines and builds. She harassed my tenants endlessly, trying to get this sale. Then she gave up, and put her own land to sale at a ridiculous price, thinking this would force me to "buy off the nuisance". But I never give in to blackmail like this so I ignored her. She then tried off and on, building on her land, renting it, putting it to sale. All of a sudden, just recently -- months after the BLM marches began -- she got religion and put up these giant signs. At this point in time this land she has repeatedly tried to sell for a high price is off sale, with this giant sign. Curious to use waterfront this way. It's like the "Impeach Bush" guy of yesteryear -- he realized it was a great way both to force a land sale, get attention, and be a nuisance. So I put up a billboard with a picture, something I actually disallow on my land, because I don't think you should blight the view for miles and annoy neighbours with giant 64 m signs. That's not self-expression, it's just griefing, in the hopes that Lindens will be so PC they will let it pass. Let's put that to the test!

You're going way off topic, trying to enlarge this very practical and obvious topic of empty pods into entire sims being empty, and the need then to rez them on demand. That's a whole other debate, the Lindens may or may not do that some day but meanwhile... THE PODS ARE EMPTY. That means no one is riding them. That means sending them constantly across sims is a waste of resources and needless. They can be rezzed on demand. It doesn't matter if some individual pod has low script usage. We are talking about their cumulative effect across the Mainland, which is then unnecessary. It doesn't matter if someone who bought land and pays tier puts scripts on it that are more than what you feel is prudent. He's at least paying for his land. The pod creator is not paying for anything and yet is everywhere, overtaking public roads. I marvel at how people come up with the wackiest, far-flung arguments to prevent doing what is logical and normal here, making something that is not used except by a small percentage of people, available only on demand, when you click it.

So search has not worked at all for more than an hour, although searching for a sim by name with the world map is using. I imagine someone will say this is just "on my machine," but eventually someone else will say wow, it's not working at all. Then eventually the Lindens may notice it.

It's not rude to send back trees encroaching on your land. It's normal. Especially if you have already asked nicely and he keeps pushing them on you. A few rounds of this, he will get the idea. If not, there is always an AR.

Well, there's another solution to this: don't have them run all the time. Have them at stations to rez on demand. A given station will be associated with a given style, fitting in with the environment. So if you want the boat, you go to a waterfront sim; if you want the space ship, you go to the space sim etc.

They are spam 100% of the time when I see them, they are empty, so they are not used as imagined. Here's some I happened to see. All empty. If I made an effort, I could put 100 more. Again, they are empty every time I see them, and I go to multiple sims where I have land, and I work on that land, so I see them go by -- empty. They should put them on rez on demand, at stations spaced appropriately across sims.

And to think, we were hearing about how Second Norway was "dying" not so long ago. I like Second Norway. Hope they are not over-extending themselves which leads to dying again.

There are way more Trump than Biden ads (I'm going to vote for Biden, so I view this as offensive). My God, I even saw a huge billboard for Nigel Farage. But it is an eyesore and is so unnecessary. No one is going to be persuaded to vote for some politician because they saw a sign in a virtual world. It's self-expression, not persuasive. The First Amendment does not apply in Second Life as Linden Lab can control speech as they wish. I think their control is excessive, for example I oppose their requirement not to mention businesses by name in complaints on the forums (I think publicity is the only way you get good behaviour in an authoritarian society without the rule of law). But it's their game, what can you do.

Well, now we know! Patch has spoken with a clear pronouncement. And one of the ways you will know it really isn't mainland is that an orb will have to be set in a certain way so as not to bounce you from your own land among other things.

Some of the responses here are obsessing with the phrase "forums cartel" and then trying to stridently reject that the OP and others "aren't members of the cartel". Yes, there is a club with that name made up of some of the people who dominated the forums in the early SL days, but my use of the term is not meant to cover only technical members of that group, but the current "forums regs" and those who usually dominate every discussion -- it's a generic title, a mantle inherited by people who weren't even here in 2006. If the OP doesn't feel he is in any of those groups, that's fine, but the idea that GTFO should have eminent domain and go anywhere, obviously of interest to those who make both cash and reputational enhancement from GTFO, is the position of the dominant forums posters and one that many other people outside of the forums don't share. BTW, the original forums cartel internecine warfare is opaque to me, but one factor that led to their demise is that new Lindens came in, new management, and they began to exercise their own rules fairly. When I first came to SL, what I objected to strenuously was the way in which a small group of "Feted Inner Core" did not have to obey the rules, as they were either friends of the Lindens, or *were* Lindens, i.e. the alts of Linden staff. So they could harass others with impunity and use obscenities and RL info in the process, and nothing happened to them. Finally, after some years, that began to come to an end. Next, we are told that if the rez areas are open to anyone to rez any vehicle, then GTFO isn't doing anything wrong and shouldn't be discriminated against. And that I should even go door to door to hawk my rentals (and it will be five minutes before someone will send me a hate mail claiming I have done this, and that they read it on the forums as "proof"). Except the TOS does have rules about overuse of resuses, and if the GTFO overlords have set up scripts to automatically place vehicles at these areas, it's not the intended use; they are supposed to be open to the public and not seized as an unpaid real estate by one game. The TOS also has rules about sandboxes, where you cannot engage in commercial activity, and that by analogy applies to rez zones. Then we're told that the Lindens "can't tell" who is playing the game and who is not as the vehicles don't have markings -- except many of them will have the GTFO script in them, which is purchased, which makes it commercial activity, and the Lindens can tell that. PS the Lindens could make a rule about keeping games like this out of Belli which take up resources, just like they made a rule that you can't have Christmas trees in July. That they may not be able to enforce that (I saw a Christmas tree just the other day by someone who hasn't logged in since December) doesn't mean that they shouldn't attempt to. Many keep hammering on the idea that the game "isn't" commercial. Of course it is, and no amount of nay-saying can cancel that truth. No grid-wide activity could exist without a commercial aspect. The coders sell kits with scripts for vehicles of those who play it. That is commecial activity. If the transaction does not "ka-ching" literally on Belli territory, that doesn't mean it's "not commercial". Of course it is, and the game owners are looking for a vast new territory to spread into so that they can get more sales and more visibility, as if presence on much of the Mainland already is not enough. It never is. There is no question that if Belli is opened further to GTFO activity, *its owners profit*. We're told that if it weren't for GTFO, and for that matter the pods, why, strangers would never have any other way of meeting each other. Of course, GTFO is a ruthless solitary game where a driver tries to beat a time deadline and goes to other parcels where the owner isn't there most of the time, so it's hard to see where any socialization occurs. But of course it's ridiculous on the face of it that only vehicles create socialization opportunities in SL. BTW Belli has its own home-grown group, Bellissaria Parade, with plenty of vehicles, and has functioned just fine without any mass commercial game or mass spamming activity, as it is opt-in. Socializing is more authentic in SL when it is organically created by residents, and artificial notions of socialization via vehicular traffic based on a poor understanding of Jane Jacobs don't work. BTW, Philip Rosedale was implementing Jane Jacob's ideas when he installed the telehubs. These were indeed real places where people actually did socialize, and were attacked -- again -- by a small number of forums regs who hated one or two of them in their old areas of SL which were avatar traps, and who also hated that they sent commerce the way of new players, and not them, in the boondocks, before there was p2p. I once took Robin Harper on a tour of many of the telehubs to show how people were indeed really socializing and she could see it in action. Philip Linden conceded that the lion's share of commece in SL occurred on telehub sims. Yet they were removed for purely ideological reasons because a few Lindens hated commerce (except for their own) and a few oldbies hated the look of some of them and the democracy of others that took business away from them. Funny how the love of industrial builds and vehicles appears again when it's GTFO and pods and not telehubs. We are also subjected to endless Belli cheerleading here as if some of these same residents don't complain about lag privately. Rabid finds the Mainland a "wasteland" and thinks that good citizens of Belli opening up their own homes as rez zones is a marvel of community spirit, but there have always been tons of Mainland hangouts and homes maintained by residents where rez zones were provided. I am one of them and there are literally hundreds more residents doing the same thing without any Bellissaria. I don't see any black market rentals business in Belli homes. One reason is that you can't give them away, I've discovered, even if you merely wish to let anyone in a non-profit group use them for any period of time by joining that group to rez items. There is a concerted frenzy to get them; once people have them, they don't always use them. Offering someone else's to use isn't popular -- if they are going to bother, most people want their own Belli property. @Nika Talaj Oh, gosh. You agree the pods are "visual spam" and you "hope they never come to Belli"? I guess you missed the other (now closed) thread which is all about them coming to Belli, the objections of me and a few others (during a period when the Lindens banned their creator for a day due to crashes and pile-ups). For a time, there was a possibility these pods might finally be regulated and put as "rez on demand" (my proposal). But no. Instead, not only are they back, Patch has gleefully informed us that new "fun projects" are in the works that extend the pods even further. So they are coming to Belli, like it or not. That is why I am not "keeping a focus". Because these are all problems with the same roots -- a few opinionated types, some of whom don't even log in or don't own property, overthrowing the Lindens -- who sometimes don't need overthrowing to do the bidding of their fans/alts. Since 100% of the pods are empty (I started documenting this again as they resumed), to say they help exploration of SL is misguided. They don't. Actual vehicles and animals sold by creators and bought by users are what help explore SL. Your notion that LL ignores the forums is belied by the saga with the pods, where we saw them banned, then restored due to clamoring only on the forums. So now perhaps you can see where this is going.

No, I didn't misunderstand anything, as I am an old hand at these GTFO subterfuges. I get it that it doesn't require signs and that Bellissaria *for now* does not allow them but given the way in which Lindens can be overthrown on their own rules, I flag it as a problem. I get it that someone can make their house "a hub" which does not mean a warehouse, but there's actually then nothing to stop it from meaning trucks, trailers, shelves, bins, gas station pumps, etc. As for Patch being "for" the pods, *of course* he's for them for his set of reasons but that most certainly DOES NOT mean that "most of us mainlanders" are. I'm a Mainlander and know many people who OPPOSE them because they are spam. The idea that "I don't want anyone to use the beautiful streets of Bellissaria except me" is ludicrous, given that the hardcore Belli Mole fans use it far more than I ever will, I am not there every day like some, and this sort of hysterical hypothetical is again, a distraction. The people saying "get off my lawn" are GTFO fans because they are creating facts on the ground and sky that none of us can object to. It's their lawn we are always being told to get off of. It is not a harmless and enjoyable game because it leads to blight and even if the industrial builds are barred because Linden homes are residential, a commercial game -- yes, commercial at its very heart because how else could it survive?! -- is being allowed to invade this suburban haven. What's next? Tiny Empires at the docks? Vampires biting? It's more than fine to express objections to encroachment on to public spaces and residential areas by a commercial game involving more traffic. It's just obvious to the naked eye that GTFO means more traffic, like the pods mean more traffic, on the public highways. Why do the Lindens need to encourage this congestion? I suppose it's because they take the tiny clique of the forums regs for "the residents' opinion" and go with that, and perhaps they imagine that a few hardcore fanboyz who like traffic are going to bring in more SALES FOR THEM. That, and various other group dynamics can explain this. But it's more than fine to object in the hopes that the Lindens may see here that they could reach a tipping point -- any more lag or traffic in Bellissaria, and they risk having people leave it, and drop their premium accounts. So as much as Abner Mole and Patch Linden want to boost this commercial game of GTFO with its increased traffic, and the pods with their increased traffic, they do have to calculate even in their own self interest that this could lead to some residents than dropping out. Maybe, like the infamous Kenny Linden, they shrug and say, "There's always another guy to buy the island". But maybe not.

I think you're continuing to try to distract from the plain issues before us with hysterical hypotheticals. First, there is a rule that there should be no commercial activity. I'm for the Lindens not looking for loopholes to their own law, and taking the technical fact that this game's individual players do not have cash transactions on Bellissaria soil to let it in, because it does mean more traffic and lag. Same principle applies to pods. More traffic and more lag. Everyone who isn't a forums cartel member grasps the deal with GTFO. BTW, I'm familiar with players who describe themselves as "not running a hub," but then having big advertising signs on their land for GTFO and related companies. I was not born yesterday. GTFO needs more territory to expand into, and people sitting in their Linden homes looks like a choice bite. I think the Lindens should hold the line here. If they don't, I think we will have to see that certain monopolists get their way with the Lindens once again.

So what you are saying is that you are using the Mole rez zones to covertly engage in GTFO gaming, which is a commercial enterprise. Gosh, I wish I had thought of some way to do that. Maybe I should sit in a rowboat by the rez zones and cry "Tired of Belli lag? Rent my land!"

What exactly is your relationship to GTFO? Do you sell the scripts and do you run a hub? I noticed you aren't denying that GTFO does indeed have a commercial aspect as I and others have pointed out. Your pasting of the covenant is a distraction meant to get us to literalize this issue to whether some actual Lindens ka-ching on Linden home land, so that a technicality may be used as a loophole through a truck can literally drive through. This is an old story in RL as in SL. Again, what this is about, is one very large monopoly transportation game with enormous clout and lines into Linden Lab, which has taken over the sky and lots on most sims with industrial builds, and is prepared to battle viciously on forums and inworld, is trying to expand into yet another area so that their business and reputational enhancement increases. But in SL as in RL, where I am for capitalism, I believe in regulation and democratic oversight. I think Bellissaria should be free of excessive vehicles especially without drivers and free of games involving vehicles that in fact are commercial enterprises.

First, I think you have to make the distinction among Welcome Areas, Info Hubs, and Resident Managed Infohubs. There are certain areas that are notorious for exactly the behavior you are describing. Years ago, a friend of ours in the Sims Online, a top creator now in SL, went for an exploratory trip to SL, and was rebuffed by crude behavior in the welcome area. This scared a whole group of us off for a long time, especially as others reinforced the tale with their own experience. Eventually TSO closed and we moved here, some earlier, some later. I would then go an examine what was going on in the hubs. There is usually a small and determined group of "wall-sitters" or hang-abouts, for whom the addition of Voice in 2007 or whenever was sure to make more hell for normal people. It's impossible to dislodge those people merely by ARs, even with the worst behavior violating every TOS rule, obscenity, harassment, commercial activity, shooting, violence, etc. The Lindens tried putting their own staff there and that improved things. I remember the days when Jack Linden, who was eventually VP of Community I believe, a highly skilled professional, was on duty in Violet. The presence of Lindens helped but they are a scarce resource. Then the Lindens put their helpers on known as SL Mentors and that was a racket, as they would scoop up newbies and take them to their stores and clubs -- it was a way to grab newbies for commerce circles. This wasn't even the kind of abuse that got to the Lindens, but other kinds did, and they scrapped the SL Mentors. Then they tried to encourage the resident managed welcome areas. There are also resident-managed areas which are on Linden land (the old telehubs and old infohubs converted to different kind of learning centers). These are all better, but uneven, and the Lindens still left places like Violet or Horizons open, where all kinds of horrors go on. I think there are some simple things to do here. o Turn off voice -- they advertise these as "chat areas" but there are plenty of other chat areas in SL that are run by residents much better o Have Lindens circuit-ride them at least o Remove walls or other areas that encouraging sitting and griefing o Provide teleport boards that enable people to truly use these as hubs where they stay for a short time, then move to something else like a Linden game o Allow resident advertising -- this used to be allowed and was an effective way to answer the problem of "what things to do". They can be regulated and rotate. These reforms and more might make these places bearable. In the mean time, you could be like any of us and stop going to these areas as they will never provide any good experience, and go to resident run events and make friends there.

Yes, and given how this determined bunch is already overthrowing the Lindens on their rule about commercial activity, you have to speak up about the signs because they're on their way to doing that, too. Now go back to your deliberate blind eye to the machinations of these powerful FIC forces in SL and their throwing of the Lindens/Moles.

The real question for me is why you are trying to think up ways to accommodate GTFO. Whether it is a tractor trailer or a small postal jeep or an Irish mail, it's still traffic -- and with your authorization of the pods to come to Bellissaria, the entire realm will be nothing but vehicles careening everywhere which will add to lag, regardless of what technically one vehicle's script time is, because it's cumulative, as you know. I don't understand how this dynamic develops. Just say no. Unless there is something about this I'm not seeing? GTFO is commercial activity -- it's not a charity. No commercial activity is allowed, regardless of whether the drivers earning "points" aren't part of the commercial activity technically on Bellissaria soil. Every new driver adds to the coffers of GTFO if they buy the kit and put the scripts in their vehicles. So you are aiding that despite claiming there cannot be commercial activity in Belli. GTFO relies on signs -- and making them "tasteful" or not, it stlil adds to the overall stress of signage. Is there to be no place in SL away from GTFO and pods? I guess not.

The Moles need to lay down the law: no signs of any type in the sky.

Yes, you're missing the fact that players buy scripts that they put into vehicles. The points they earn may not convert to cash, but there is a merchandising element of this game and just because it might not take place directly on Bellissaria land is no reason to look the other way and let in this industrial blight to residential areas. The Linden homes don't look like warehouses. But by the time various trappings of GTFO are put in, they may well look like them. And you're going to allow people to blight the map by putting the letters GTFO up in the sky?! I didn't realize the purpose of Bellissaria was to further reward bad actors that blight the Mainland -- which has enough troubles -- with industrial paraphernalia (even if not technically "builds") and spam vehicles. GTFO certainly adds to traffic. It's not enough it has taken over the Legacy Mainland? What is all this really about?

Something that advertises on the MP and requires payments for a script or HUD should not be allowed in Bellissaria. Why is it?

Now that is a real shame. You would think they would keep Bellissaria nice looking by not letting in the GTFO spam and uglification. Since commercial activity is not allowed in Bellissaria and other Linden Home areas, how do the Lindens tolerate it? I suppose on a technicality. Everyone playing GTFO has to buy a kit from the makers for a few hundred dollars. That's one way they make money. Another way is to put up ad sign boards (and surely the Lindens won't allow that in Bellissaria). But at an individual GTFO location, there may not be any vendor or anything for sale. It is just one venue in the game. There could be, but there doesn't have to be. So that may let them slip through. But since the entire game does have a commercial component, the Lindens should not allow it.

I dislike them as they spam up the map. Land for sale already shows up as yellow on the map. Some people abuse this and put land for sale to make it show up, when they actually mean to just rent is. I personally do not put those signs up in the sky. It just seems like abuse of the map view, spamming it with advertising, and it also means prims up in the sky. You can put a parcel in search/places for $30 and that works pretty well. There are many other ways to advertise, like listings cards and teleport boards in your office.

I don't how to fix the landing issue but I'm wondering if places pages are worth it. Is there any way to tell which customers are coming via the place page, and which by search/places or your picks or some other means?

No, it's another case of "I can do WTF I want on my land". It's not just Prim Magic; Thomas Conover makes yellow police tape like this and others do as well, as if your house is a crime scene. It's particularly stupid as you can just go to World/show/property lines on the viewer and see the lines highlighted in bright green if you are a sole owner or aqua if you are on group land. No lag, no eyesore, available any time. I once IM'd a neighbour with this ugly stuff out for days and informed him that this function of boundary lines is in the viewer. Sometimes people really don't know, and when I tell them they are thrilled and get rid of the police tape. This fellow objected that you could see them with world/show/property lines, but they were just too light. Whereupon I said he could turn on "midnight" which makes them show up very bright. Then he said he couldn't see to build. I pointed out that the police tape had been there for weeks and it didn't appear he was building. He then banned me, and then put out a Trump 2020 block for good measure. That shows you what we're dealing with here. I bet if people tried this in Bellissaria, the Moles would make a rule about it instantly. But they don't. Because I think it's a higher class of people. The Lindens have easements around all the properties so you need to find your property lines but you can do that with the viewer and ugly border tape is not needed. When you mention rental agencies, I sure don't use these idiotic things -- again, property lines are in the viewer, turn them on, and turn on midnight if it is such an issue to see them. Use them temporarily to build if you must, but take them down. When I see these on rentals, they often aren't taken -- I think a tenant wouldn't want this eyesore.