Tazzie Tuque

As a consumer, I totally agree! No demo = No sale! I have note carded several creators nicely explaining why a demo is necessary.. I only ever got one reply and that was a very arrogant and indignant reply, not at all encouraging to a potential customer.. Personally I do not understand why any merchant would want to risk losing a potential sale by not offering a demo. As for Alpha's, sometimes the clothing fits pretty well but the alpha is really badly made and that will show in the demo as well and that is important! I have in some cases sent a note card to the creator saying I love the style but can't buy it because the alpha doesn't work with it well.. and I send a pic showing clearly where it doesn't work.. To my surprise, most of the time I have either gotten a new alpha sent to me that does work so then I go buy the item, or in some cases the creator has sent me a full perm copy of the alpha texture so I can fix it myself.. these are customer friendly creators! As a Creator myself, I always provide a "free" demo because that is what I expect as a consumer so of course I would not offer anything less to my potential customers. I take sometimes hours tweaking an alpha to get the best possible coverage without any overlap; but having said that, there are some clothing pieces that are darn near impossible to get a perfect alpha: sleeves that go just below the elbow is one of those areas.. some skirt bottoms are another, so in a case like that it is a matter of how bad is it, and can you live with it? lol

I finally gave in and started making appliers for some of my non mesh styles or mixed styles which have a non mesh top etc. The designers who make the mesh bodies will supply you free of charge a kit to make appliers for their bodies, if you visit their store you will find either the kit right there as you can for Maitreya, or a link to click which will take you to a web page where you can apply for the kit as in slink. Each body maker does things a bit differently you just have to poke around till you find the info on how to get the kits. Once you get a kit, there are instructions included, just follow those. I Started with Slink, and Maitreya so far and will likely pick up the rest soon.

There really is no shortage of stores in SL especially for women. The idea of using Market Place is a good one then when you see what you like you can either go to their Market Place Store to see more or if there is an inworld store you can go visit that. There are also usually a lot of us clothing designers who post in here so look at the names put those in Market Place Search and see what you can find.. Or just put the item you are looking for in either MP search or SL search and see what comes up.. like "women's pants" or "Formal Dresses" etc. I am sure you will find a lot of new ones that way too. Good luck with your shopping;)

I have tried creating some clothing using mateial, specular and texture maps making sure that all maps had the exact same layout so that each lined up prefectly, I then created the dress (in this case) and turned on advanced lighting, and at first there was absolutely no difference at all between advanced lighting on or off. After playing with the settings on the specular layer increasing one, decreasing another, etc. I managed to get some sort of bling like flash to appear on the shoulder area only. I wore the dress around a bit to clubes etc to see if movement made any difference and noted that it did but only slightly, the sparkle effect I wanted was minimal and restricted to the top area like the advanced lighing only struck down from above and nothing under the shoulders or part of the upper chest and back showed any sign of sparkle, and I wanted the whole dress to do that.. In the end I elected NOT to create clothing using these layers or use advanced lighting.. Turning off advanced lighting to me renders material just the same as if materials was not used.. not grey and dull but the texture used looks the same with lighting on or off.. Personally I think this concept needs a lot of work, and the lighting also needs a lot of work for it to be of much value to EVERYONE. Oh and since I do not use invisiprims at all in anything I wear, or make, I have not been overly concerned with that issue, I removed the invisiprims on all boots and shoes that I could (if modifyable) and started using alpha layers instead ages ago.. I just dumped anything I could not modify to take out the innvisiprims. Not that it matters to me as I rarely use advanced lighting anyhow since I do not see enough advantage to using yet anyhow.

Skin selection is definitely personal taste, but yes always get demos first!! When I feel the need for a new skin it takes me days and tons of demos to find one that works perfectly with my facial features, and looks good on the rest of the body too. I currently use Dream Ink.. their skins are great but their body shapes are not so cool .. I just use the skin, as I made my own shape years ago and do not wish to change it lol. And I agree lighting can totally change the way a skin looks.. so yes try all sorts of lighting with the demos first as well.

Like those who responded already, I agree it is a combination of things that makes an avitar look good.. definitely body proportions that are within normal looking limits, and that does give a pretty wide scope as there are attractive real folks of all shapes and sizes so is there in SL. The thing that was important for me when I first made my avitar is the face, the basic structure of the facial features will look different depending on what skin is chosen so skin shopping can take quite a long time, unless you opt for a shape and skin combination (but then you rislk looking like a thousand other avitars out there). Some skins will flatter the facial features and some will not so trial and demos are the only way to go with that. Then of course there is the hair, finding flattering styles for women and there are tons out there.. for men not so much choice, but then some men can look amazing just plain bald. But again it all depends on what looks good with the facial features and also the skin tones. And finally it is the clothing that is selected, however, having said that, a great looking avie can look good in almost any clothing, or without as well, male or female. The bottom line to looking good comes down to this, personal taste, and a lot of patience to either create your own body shape, or find one you like, then the search for a skin that compliments that. Most women seem to be naturally good at this, and so are a lot of men so it all depends on the effort (and sometimes the lindens) you want to put into your appearance. But if I had to say one main thing, it would be the body shape and skin combination.

wow I wish I could help you.. I have been designing in SL for almost 10 years and I still can't get my own mesh work into SL.. so you have gotten farther than I have.. and Kidos for your actually being able to use blender!!! I am impressed.. I use ZBrush, awesome modelling program but impossible to get it into the format SL requires for mesh.. tried taking it into blender as an obj and converting to .dae there,, and what I end up with is no where near what I actually made lol.. So I kind of gave up and just buy .dae files or full perm mesh to work with:(

I would like to help you out here, but i have to admit in my 9 years in SL, I have never heard of scene hair.. so I don't even know what it is????

Well I just invested about 3 hrs. with Maitreya and Slink mesh bodies, testing the demos, using various clothing appliers, and also my mesh outfits.. the Slink alpha hud is impossible no matter which alpha I tried (or combination of rings of alpha) there were always gaps somewhere or some part not covered in 99% of the mesh outfits I tried.. Maitreaya faired a lot better with the alpha hud provided the pieces I could cut out worked a lot closer to the mesh outfits so I could use more of my mesh with that one.. but still wow what a hassle! Instead of 3 mins to get dressed it would take 10 mins to get all the alphas right IF you are lucky enough to get them right lol.. I dunno .. just seems to be a hit or miss, kinda patch work thing .. certainly NOT user friendly. But at least I got some answers and some feedback .. thanks folks..

Sadly for us perfectionists; "close enough" just doesn't cut it lmao!

Ok that is good to know Amethyst, not only for my own purposes should I decide to invest in a mesh body; but also so I can stop fretting that all the mesh clothing I make will be rendered useless if everyone gets into mesh bodies! And I didn't think there was a way to make an applier work as an alpha.. But I do wonder if the mesh body makers have considered some way to add an alpha to their hud? If so then we could offer that alpha with the outfits and the customer could just add it themselves. But I suppose that would involve allowing modification properties and that might not work too well. Ah well lol.

With so much out there now in terms of mesh bodies; simple clothing designers like myself often find it kind of overwhelming to keep up.. Firstly I find that I cannot see a lot of mesh body parts, either the top half or bottom half is totally transparent.. or I see bits and pieces of skin with irregular transparent holes in it.. especially on legs. The person wearing it can see it fine but others often cannot.. (and I am on a very high end computer and graphics card with very high speed connection and 32 gigs of RAM so it is not likely my equipment) But aside from that, my question is: is there a way to make specific alpha layers on appliers to go with individual mesh clothing designs? I am told that the only alpha's that can be used are in a hud that comes with the bodies.. These are general alpha's so do not work with a lot of mesh clothing, either leaving gaps or not covering what needs to be covered. So wondered if there was a way around that.

lol Tymm I know I must have missed the 80's as well, can't remember any of the top 40 music, and don't think I wore anything but jeans the whole time... hmmm have to do some research Iol.

I would have to agree with you there Bobbie with regards to standard sizing, I have a relatively thin avatar, not skinny have some curves I have to wear medium mesh size, so I can't imagine how tiny one must be to wear XXS? But it looks like we are stuck with this standard sizing thing unless LL decides to update it, then all the already made mesh fashions witll have to be redone by all the clothes makers.. or yanked off MP and out of stores. I honestly don't have a clue if or how this will ever get resolved. It is frustrating!

This debate around mesh clothing has been going on since it was introduced, Not just clothing but now mesh body parts and full mesh avitars as well. The standard body sizes offered in mesh clothing was introduced to offer more than one size to accomodate the average female shapes and thaat does include large. And yes SL is a place where anyone can alter their shape to suit themselves and that presents an infinite number of size and shape possibliltes. One person's idea of curvy may be hugely different from aother's. The mesh makers could not possibly create mesh for all those concepts. That is why designers who make mesh clothing (either from their own made mesh or from templates mesh made by others and sold to designers) make 5 sizes of each item, and also why most of us make demo's so folks don't get stuck paying for something that doesn't fit right. Again I stress it would be impossible to accomodate and please everyone. The same could be said for male mesh clothing as well, Those men with enormous muscle mass shapes also have issues with mesh clothing. Again it is standard sizing. Yet so many men in SL seem to think looking like the ultimate body builder is most attractive, when in fact to a lot of women it is not at all. So it doesn't matter male or female, pleasing everyone is impossible!

Although there are mesh body parts out there, the majority of ladies I know may use hands and feet but stil prefer their regular body, sometimes adding boobs or butts but keeping the main body as it is.. reason being they know it and they can still use system clothing with it as well as regular mesh clothing if they want. That means that there is lots of room for new and good skins. But as previously mentioned the various appliers to go with each skin is also very important! From what I have seen so far mesh bodies have too many limitations to completely take over yet.

it isn't hard and I agree with you 100%... same goes for those who make mesh templates to sell .. seriously, I am gonna put all that out on something I have no clue even looks good never mind fits.. NOT! I am a creator, I use mesh templates, won't buy ANY thing mesh without a demo as a consumer and won't offer anyting for sale without offering a free demo to try.. It defies logic not to but there is a lot out there that don't and they all will not be selling anything to me..

Ok I am going to answer this not as a creator but as a consumer. Personally I wear ONLY what looks good. If it happens to be clothing layers then that's what it is.. i.e pants definitely look way better than mesh pants if the mesh fits poorly.. and you can use an alpha so you can wear boots with syslem layer pants, you can't with mesh.. On the other hand, mesh skirts sometimes look way better for some types of skirts i.e. mini skirts when you have to use an awkward insert for a system layer skirt.. (that is using the pants layer) skirt layers in system layers suck always have and always will. I often mix a mesh mini skirt with a non mesh system layer top. For a formal nothing beats system layer pants and top with a beautiful flexi skirt, mesh can't hold a a candle to that. Mesh long dresses and skirts are impossible as there is always a foot sticking out attached to nothing which to me looks absurd.. unless you use a full alpha and hide the feet which to me also looks dumb. As for lingere.. system layers for sure, with a touch of flexi is so sexy.. if I wear lingere I want to be natural and sexy I don't wanna mess with alpha layers.. So there you have my opinion lol... for what it's worth.

I think I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing something on the Edit window.. I just tried your adding tatoo layers as you describe it only I did not have to come out of edit mode each time at all.. I stayed in edit mode and created 4 new layes then tried it again and edited the same 1 layer 4 times without ever getting off edit mode.. here is what I did: go into appearance, in the edit window select the layer i want to work on or make a new one, or make a whole new one.. once I have the let's say tatoo layer open I edit or change the colour etc, then click save as and it is saved. I am still on the edit pose and the window is still open, so to do the next one I click the ittle gear thing at the bottom left side and select new a little window pops up and I select tatoo again and a second tatoo layer window appears, and I edit that the same pick save as, and am still in the edit position .. to do a third I just click that gear select new and another tatoo layer, you can do this infinitely without gettin off the edit post. If you don't see the little gear at the botom after saving you simply click the arrow at the top left where it says editing outfit and that brings it all back up for you to click the gear and select new and your new layer. I can make a whole outfit top - pants - underwear - and tatoos 2 or 3 even without ever getting off the edit pose. So the sequence is this go into appearance; either create a new layer from the little gear thing or edit one you already have on, make your changes, save as, click the arrow Editing Tatoo (or what ever layer) this brings you back to the main edit window, pick the gear at the bottom and select new tattoo for another layer or go back don't pick that if you want to add to the layer you were previously working on in that case pick it again change your texture and save as again. This will make a new layer if only want to save changes but want to keep the same layer then hit save at the top instead of save as.. either way you remain on the edit pose and have the option to pick another layer- the same layer - or create a new one. And you can do this all day with out ever getting off the edit pose. Save as creates a new layer; save changes the layer you are working on. Either way you can keep making as many changes as needed without ever getting off the edit pose. It is pretty fast and simple to me.. it' is just knowing which to do for what you want to do.. it's all there.. Try it and message me privately if you are stuck I can meet with you in SL and help you if needed. And there is also a button called "add more" which will bring up every tatoo you have already got in your inventory, if you want to change any of those just click on it and it will come up in the edit window.

I have been in SL almost 10 years and have been creating clohing for pretty mush the whole time, to date. I am afraid I don't quite follow what you mean.. 100 layers of what? I Use Firestorm now as well, and I save as all the time, I do not have to jump off appearance and back in, while still on I simply save as then hit create new layer and carry on. Perhaps if you could be more specific it would help me to understand exactly what you mean.

Well I can answer from my point of view.. the simple answer is .. I don't make any appliers or try to make clothes for meash bodies. I create outfits and design clothing because I enjoy it I still make the odd oldfashioned non mesh skin outfit just because and I will make mesh outfits and that is all.. To keep up wth numerous mesh appliers and bodies, would become tedious and take the joy out of mmy creations. So after getting the appliers and trying to work with them, I decided it was not worth it to waste the time on them and perhaps others can not see the joining lines where add on meets body I sure could and found it too frustrating! My apologies to those who use add on parts and mesh bodies I mean no disrespect I just want to enjoy creating not make it a tediouis boring task. I use add on feet and hands and might make the odd pair of shoes for the feet (not naming any specific brand). But even at that if the outfit I want to wear doesn't work with the hands or feet I simply take them off. lol. Like I said I design for fun and personal enjoyment, and if my items bring in some extra cash all the better, but it has to stay enjoyable for me.

Interesting question posed here.. I have pretty much always worn black, or silver .. and avoided mesh hair like the plague when it first came out so any hiar maker that was making onlly mesh even if they were my fav. once they stopped making flexi I lost interest. But having said that, recently I have discovered some very talented mesh hair makers, and I have taken the plunge into mesh hair. As for colours, well I have been experimenting with various options, including the ombre look with non natural colours. Here is what I look for.. 1. a good fit I refuse to alter my facial appearance to wear any hair ( a few size options on rigged mesh hair would help) 2. As for colours I look for good shading and realistic detail even if the hair is blue or pink.. black seems to be the hardest to find these days that looks good, most of it is has little highlight and very little detail or has a brown hue to it, so I will pass those over. 3. For colour choice I look for hud based with low script count (essential) and a variety of blending colours to play with. Last few days I have bought the same hair style in 2 hud colour choices, one natural and one kind of fantasy. 3. The style if it does not flatter my face or is too severe or too atrsy or geometric I won't even look at it twice. Final comment is that colour choice is nice for sure but the quality of the texture is by far more important if it looks like I am wearing feathers or a football helmet .. forget it lol.

Well I was going to avoid responding to this one, but reading what others have written I have decided I need to say something. The concept of add on body parts in general tells us all one thing, that the basic avitar is quite lacking in what most women anyways would like to see for a body. Opening up a huge market for the right creator of add on breasts etc. and Tango were the rage when they first came out. As a designer myself I got the applier kits, but felt I had to get the breasts as well in order to make sure that any appliers I make for my clothing would look good. I went to the Tango store, was totally disgusted that there were absolutely NO demos. I wrote to the creator, no response. I wrote again no response. Clearly no customer service, or care to interact or communicate with customers or interest in converting potential customers to real customers. But since I was seeing the breasts everywhere, and the appliers being made by clothing designers. I bit the bullet and purchased a pair for myself.. blending with my skin was impossible, and I mean impossible, so went to my skin maker and found an applier for my shin tone.. Even that did not help blend out that oviouls line clearly seen where fake breast meets original avitar. Unless I used the Tangos full size there was a line somewhere and that is just not acceptable to me.. So I gave up on them totally. Lost all interest in wearing them for myself as I wanted a modest increase in size not a top heavy appendage. As for making the appliers.. gave up on that too when the instructions that came with them did not produce what I expected, and any and all requests for help fell once again into the abyss. NO demo, NO service, yet mega sales... I simply do not understand this!

I so understand your frustration, as a consumer I too have been frustrated with situations like this. As a designer myself, I am always stuck with satisfying only a few when it comes to mesh anything!! And that in itself is frustrating! I had to decide, if I wanted to spend an extra 8 hrs or more on each mesh item I make just to make all the possible appliers that are out there for enlarged breasts, and butts, shoes, and now even mesh for mesh bodies.. And weigh all that with the cost to me for putting it out there in time and my own linden investment for either purchasing ready made templates or uploading mesh files or both. In the end I decided it was best for me to not get into all that. I design clothes because I enjoy the artistic side of it, yes I love to make a few lindens on it as well, but for me I make mesh clothing that can be worn by any average size avitar using a non mesh body, if I include boots or shoes, they may be compatable with one of the more used mesh feet, but also I try to make them so even those who don't own such feet can wear them as well, or sell the shoes/boots seperately. I felt that was better than including something some may not be able to use. I know full well that there are many in SL who won't purchase my clothing because I do not make all the appliers, but that was a decision I made to be able to keep my designing fun for me! Otherwise it would become a tedious, boring chore which would probably not return enough in sales in the end to make it worth my while. Just my 2L on the issue lol

For me this is a loaded topic! I am one who swore I would NEVER mess with the shape it took me almost 7 years to perfect, so when mesh came out if the alpha and the fit wasn't perfect on the demo.. I would not buy the item period. But as I am also a clothing designer I realized that if I didn't get into producing some mesh designs I would be left behind in the dust so to speak. So I had to find a way to change my views and practices without compromising my oh so carefully crafted avatar. First I have to say that due to my 3D mesh software not being able to save in the format that LL has decided must be used, I am not able to bring my own mesh work into SL (I tried the uploading .obj from my program to blender and converting the format then uploading it to SL.. what a mess! gave up on that one). Now I use premade mesh templates available on MP. Some of them are incredibly high priced so most times I can't use those to work with as I can't afford to buy them so I have to do with the ones that are in my price range. And I would never consider using a template without a demo first.. except for Meli's mesh templates.. no demo but a money back guaranteee if it doesn't work for me.. I use a lot of her templates and never have had to ask for my money back. I too use the tweak method to get a good body fit, and save it in the folder with the outfits for personal use, and send a note card out with my items for sale outlining how to adjust little tweaks on the body that no one will really notice anyhow since the mesh actually defines the shape say of a dress or skirt or pants or top. This works for me and many of my customers.. I does not work for those who have a NO Mod shape.. which is sad, I have never understood why shape makers do that, put a shape out No Mod. I made my own shape from sacratch 9 years ago when I came into SL, and I have only tweaked it a bit here and there since then.. and yes it takes me weeks when I want to change skins to find one that flatters my shape, especially facial, and head. With the advent of add on boobs and butts, I had to decide if I wanted to get on the band wagon and make appliers for these.. what a night mare that was! First there are a few add on part designers and you have to decide which appliers you are going to make, if I did all of them, the time alone making these would make the outfit way too expensive to sell. So I opted not to offer appliers, I know that cuts down on my potential customer base but I make clothes because I enjoy designing the fabrics, textures etc. I also depend on sales to supplement my RL income so it is a delema to be sure. Now that mesh bodies are coming out, this presents a whole new kettle of fish for me as a designer. I guess what I am trying to say is there is no covering all the bases for me, so I am sticking with what works for me and my avie personally and if my outfits work for others, yay!!! I might make a sale or two.. and I always offer demos, and hope folks use them before buying. The game will always win when it comes to mesh; because there is someone out there who will alwyas be "upping the anti".. as a consumer I ignore what doesn't work for me, and do the best I can with what does. And yes "Standard" is approximate at best and simply won't work for some folks.. I do appologize for not being able to accomodate those folks as a designer.