Summary of interview with Oz Linden about new TPV policy

[Ossian1488303077]

There's a summary of Jessica Lyon's interview with Oz Linden here, and I found it to be very interesting and (at least tentatively) reassuring.

Thanks to Oz for taking the time and being so open.

I wanted to point out, because I think most people don't know, that he said that the LSL change, which would break most online presence displays, is on hold and won't be happening any time soon. Am I the only one who didn't know?

Also, he said that viewer usage numbers aren't a secret, but as far as I know this interview is the first time LL has given any indication of what they are. It turns out that the official viewer is third, behind Phoenix and Firestorm, with Singularity coming in fourth.

In any case, I'm grateful for the glimpse into LL and how they're thinking. It's so rare that it happens, and this look inside is pretty extensive.

I hope -- I wish -- that this is something that LL will continue to do: to talk with us and share both good news and bad.

[Luc Starsider]

While we may not agree with the changes LL did regarding TPVs, it is very positive to see Oz taking the time, and make the effort, to communicate with both TPV developers and the regular SL residents. I too hope this is something that will continue, not only on the viewer front, but otherwise as well.

- Luc -

[SLAddict Allen]

He made a lot of sense in this interview. This policy change doesn't give them any more power. They didn't even have to communicate these rules at all, they could have just enforced them. Thumbs up for communicating, and going the extra mile to explain.

The only point that still makes me roll my eyes is about viewer bullying. Oz said that a lot of new people were leaving because they were told to try a new viewer and got frustrated with having to download different viewers. Therefore they felt it best to remove viewer tags. There are issues with that:

1) Does being recommended another viewer really constitute bullying?

2) So because we are trying to help other users by recommending a better experience, we are to blame for that feature dying?

3) How is one supposed to fathom how not having viewer tags will keep people from saying you shouldn't be using Viewer 3?

4) You would also not see these recommendations if, for example, V3 was up to par!

Yet one more example of LL taking the easy road.

[Theresa Tennyson]

Okay, pet peeve here. In the last few months I've met a number of people just starting out who were told to use Phoenix because it's "easier and better." If you're used to the Viewer 1 interface I'm sure it's a lot easier. However, someone just starting out will find any interface equally easy or difficult to use. Hungarian is an extremely difficult language to learn as a second language for most people but that doesn't stop two-year-olds in Hungary from picking it up. When older residents suggest new residents use Phoenix they're having them use a viewer built on older tecthology and one that ITS OWN DEVELOPER wishes could be phased out. It strikes me as being the equivalent of someone coming into an elementary school science class and saying, "You know, the Metric System is lame. Here, have a yardstick and a set of teaspoons."

[Ossian1488303077]

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SLAddict Allen wrote:

He made a lot of sense in this interview. This policy change doesn't give them any more power. They didn't even have to communicate these rules at all, they could have just enforced them. Thumbs up for communicating, and going the extra mile to explain.

The only point that still makes me roll my eyes is about viewer bullying. Oz said that a lot of new people were leaving because they were told to try a new viewer and got frustrated with having to download different viewers. Therefore they felt it best to remove viewer tags. There are issues with that:

1) Does being recommended another viewer really constitute bullying?

2) So because we are trying to help other users by recommending a better experience, we are to blame for that feature dying?

3) How is one supposed to fathom how not having viewer tags will keep people from saying you shouldn't be using Viewer 3?

4) You would also not see these recommendations if, for example, V3 was up to par!

Yet one more example of LL taking the easy road.

---

 

What I got from it is that LL was looking to see where new people stopped using SL, and one was the point when older users told them "You need to download a different viewer."  It doesn't matter HOW it was said, because just the idea confused and/or bothered the new users enough to make them leave and not come back.

[Benski Trenkins]

From someone like me, I grew up with v1, and indeed have issues getting to terms with the new viewer. Along some technical difficulties, I find it (for me personally) counter productive. But I agree that it's a matter of preferences. 

 

The fact that people are 'told' and sometimes even bullied about their use of the official viewer is bad. I am often on v3 because I need it. Simple said: I need that for my Mesh uploads. Firestorm doesn't upload correctly (yet) and that gives me the need for the official viewer. I encountered people telling me too that I use the "wrong" viewer. Which I, as a non-Noob can simply counteract with facts why it is, in some cases, for me the better viewer. But I can fully understand that people can feel intimidated by that. 

For me, using a 3rd party viewer, and these new rules, have no negative impact anyways. I use 3rd party viewer for reasons that are not infected by this new policy. 

- true online status, viewer tags etc, are not the reasons for me to use it. In fact I welcome the dissapearance of 'true online status' since I got my fair share of "are you hiding from me?" comments in the past. "No I want to build in peace, respect that or risk being muted" 

Even when Firestorm will have all the things I need, I'd still keep the official viewer on my pc, I always want to stay in touch with that software as well, despite some dislikes about it. 

Oz cleared a lot of things in this interview. Only time will tell what the future will bring, and I sincerely hope that TPV's will continue to work on their improvements and options.

[SLAddict Allen]

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Ossian wrote:

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SLAddict Allen wrote:

He made a lot of sense in this interview. This policy change doesn't give them any more power. They didn't even have to communicate these rules at all, they could have just enforced them. Thumbs up for communicating, and going the extra mile to explain.

The only point that still makes me roll my eyes is about viewer bullying. Oz said that a lot of new people were leaving because they were told to try a new viewer and got frustrated with having to download different viewers. Therefore they felt it best to remove viewer tags. There are issues with that:

1) Does being recommended another viewer really constitute bullying?

2) So because we are trying to help other users by recommending a better experience, we are to blame for that feature dying?

3) How is one supposed to fathom how not having viewer tags will keep people from saying you shouldn't be using Viewer 3?

4) You would also not see these recommendations if, for example, V3 was up to par!

Yet one more example of LL taking the easy road.

---

 

What I got from it is that LL was looking to see where new people stopped using SL, and one was the point when older users told them "You need to download a different viewer."  It doesn't matter HOW it was said, because just the idea confused and/or bothered the new users enough to make them leave and not come back.

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I got that too. New users got confused when told what to download and where to get it, and decided on their own accord to leave, and suddenly a feature is no good.

Isn't giving more than once choice the whole point to the existance of TPVs?

It just reeks of "We will only do so much with our viewer to improve it, so we are trying everything else to fix these other Open Development issues."

[Darrius Gothly]

There is of course another solution. Include links to all the approved viewers on the Viewer download page, and include live statistics that show how many of each viewer are currently logged in. Right now you only get to download the LL Viewer, so people think that's the only viewer available. If they had information that showed them there are a wealth of viewers available before they download and log in for the first time, they wouldn't be surprised or feel bullied/confused.

(In lieu of the live stats, they could just display the current popularity ranking next to each viewer download.)

[Nalates Urriah]

I have a synopsis with time marks for the video. If there are particular topics in the interview you want to hear, the index will let you go to them. See: Oz Linden Interview Summary.

 

[Ossian1488303077]

Thanks for that! There were a lot of things that were different with more context; more nuanced.

I don't usually watch videos or listen to audio files (aside from music) online because they are so long. I can read a transcript in a logarithm of the time, and I appreciate the work it takes to produce them.

[Cincia Singh]

Exactly! The average new person in SL has already had to do something they likely don't do very often or at all ... install new software (the viewer). Now that they've overcome that hurdle and gotten inworld where they just want to know how to do basic SL things someone comes along and tells them they're using bad/poor/crappy software and should download and install MORE software. And they're given a link to a site other than the official SL site. It's small wonder a significant percentage of new residents just throw up their arms and walk away from SL. The best solution would be for everyone to learn at least the basics of using the default SL viewer so they could answer the questions from new residents before they start suggesting additional downloads.

[Feldspar Millgrove]

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Cincia Singh wrote:

It's small wonder a significant percentage of new residents just throw up their arms and walk away from SL. The best solution would be for everyone to learn at least the basics of using the default SL viewer so they could answer the questions from new residents before they start suggesting additional downloads.

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When an old resident says to a newbie, "Sorry, I don't know how to work the Viewer you are using - can't help", their SL account should be terminated.  Another possibility would be for the system to make users who are using TPVs invisible to those who are running the official Viewer and vice versa.  In general, Linden Lab should modify the TOS to make it against the rules for older residents to communicate with newer residents.  New users should be figuring things out on their own, anyway, and bringing their own unique and fresh perspective to SL, and not be contaminated by oldbies using strange illegal Viewers.  The problem with new user retention on Second Life is definitely the oldbies. Existing customers are just ruining everything, especially when they try to interact with the brand new customers.

 

I guess another idea would be to simply terminate all existing SL accounts that are more than two weeks old, and ban all TPVs.  The future of Second Life is the Linden Realms and other high quality games that will be developed - and played - by an entirely different customer base.  Clean off the grid and get rid of the troublesome customers. It's time for all-new customers and all-new experiences. It's time to relaunch Second Life.

[Seven Overdrive]

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Cincia Singh wrote:

Exactly! The average new person in SL has already had to do something they likely don't do very often or at all ... install new software (the viewer). Now that they've overcome that hurdle and gotten inworld where they just want to know how to do basic SL things someone comes along and tells them they're using bad/poor/crappy software and should download and install MORE software. And they're given a link to a site other than the official SL site. It's small wonder a significant percentage of new residents just throw up their arms and walk away from SL. The best solution would be for everyone to learn at least the basics of using the default SL viewer so they could answer the questions from new residents before they start suggesting additional downloads.

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I think LL should do a better job at providing support to new users for their viewer.  They would get far better results with new user retention if they did.

Bringing back the in-world Live Help chat group would go a long way to achieving that goal.  Instant and official handholding for those first critical hours in SL.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Feldspar Millgrove wrote:

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Cincia Singh wrote:

It's small wonder a significant percentage of new residents just throw up their arms and walk away from SL. The best solution would be for everyone to learn at least the basics of using the default SL viewer so they could answer the questions from new residents before they start suggesting additional downloads.

---

When an old resident says to a newbie, "Sorry, I don't know how to work the Viewer you are using - can't help", their SL account should be terminated.  Another possibility would be for the system to make users who are using TPVs invisible to those who are running the official Viewer and vice versa.  In general, Linden Lab should modify the TOS to make it against the rules for older residents to communicate with newer residents.  New users should be figuring things out on their own, anyway, and bringing their own unique and fresh perspective to SL, and not be contaminated by oldbies using strange illegal Viewers.  The problem with new user retention on Second Life is definitely the oldbies. Existing customers are just ruining everything, especially when they try to interact with the brand new customers.

 

I guess another idea would be to simply terminate all existing SL accounts that are more than two weeks old, and ban all TPVs.  The future of Second Life is the Linden Realms and other high quality games that will be developed - and played - by an entirely different customer base.  Clean off the grid and get rid of the troublesome customers. It's time for all-new customers and all-new experiences. It's time to relaunch Second Life.

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That would be mean. I think it would be much nicer to set aside an area of SL for certain older residents that would be just for them with applesauce and nice blankets where they woudn't have to worry about scary things like mesh or profile feeds and there wouldn't be darn kids to get on their lawn.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Theresa Tennyson wrote:

That would be mean. I think it would be much nicer to set aside an area of SL for certain older residents that would be just for them with applesauce and nice blankets where they woudn't have to worry about scary things like mesh or profile feeds and there wouldn't be darn kids to get on their lawn.

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Can we have a badminton set too? I love badminton. 8^D

[Deej Kasshiki]

Full of sound and fury signifying little.

In the end it's all just words until we see how this "policy" is implemented and enforced and whether LL is sincere (shown by deeds, not just words) in its expressed desire to collaborate.

 

[Coby Foden]

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Seven Overdrive wrote:

I think LL should do a better job at providing support to new users for their viewer.  They would get far better results with new user retention if they did.

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Indeed, that they should do.

In general Linden Lab should do a lot more in guiding new users. What there is to do in Second Life, where to go, provide a nice interesting place for new users to learn the basics of Second Life. Those kinds of things.

I'm surprised to see lots of "born today" users totally lost roaming in various places where they certainly should not be as new borns without any knowledge of the basics of Second Life. How to navigate, how to control the avatar, how to change clothes, how to sit, how to fly, etc.

One often hears also "I'm new, logged in today for the first time. So, tell me, what is there to do in this game? I'm totally confused about this place. Can anybody help me?"

[Benski Trenkins]

I do agree that for some installing SL and starting with this VW is quite an undertaking already. 

I have never, in my entire SL life, ever told a newbie that they got the 'wrong software' I believe the first few days that is something they should be protected from. 

Even during the first period of v2, that dreaded viewer with sidebar, I installed it, despite the fact I never used it myself. I believe if you truely want to help new people, it is important to know what they can run in to.

Refusing to use the official viewer, then run off to help island and when someone ask a viewer question, tell them to install 'your choice cause it's better' isn't helping at all. In those cases, keep quiet and let someone that isn't bias on the viewer, help that person out.

I have my personal problems with the current viewer, even the Beta. But I need it for my Mesh uploads, so I gotta deal with it. It. Also helps me understand the way new people experience things better. 

I still think that the original viewer has issues that should easely be fixed, and I still believe that most 3rd party viewers (and am purely talking interface here) listen to their userbase much better than LL. Why for instance can I move stuff around under recent in FS, and not in LL viewer. Why can I choose between dropdown or piemenu in most of the 3rd party viewers, but not in LL, why for years already can I not get something basic like vertical tabs? 

If LL "would" deside to stop the Open Source and kick all TPV's off the grid, they first need to learn how to listen to their customer base (and I mean old AND new customers)

"Linden Realms is the future" :matte-motes-big-grin-squint: omg I fell off my chair!! good one!