IF LL cant compete on Innovation - Stifle Competiton

[Clint Snowfall]

While I totally agree with what has been said here..I question if you have spent any time in the newb rezz areas in the last two years. Veteran residents do indeed harass newb residents into using a TPV. They make up any number of creative descriptions of the LL viewer to get the new people to drop v2/v3 within mintues of joining SL. Now, not all new residents fall for it and not all newb rez areas have this problem 24/7, but it occurs enough that you can find the problem.

I personally started on v2 and I loved it, I will still use v2 over any of the v1 style TPVs. BUT as soon as Firestorm came out for download in any form, I got it and I will swear by it. It is hands down better than v2.

But I enjoyed the fact that I had the decision to choose whichever viewer I wanted to use, a freedom I still enoy at this moment. If in fact LL decides to push out the TPVs, they will lose me and my SL businesses.

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Can you imagine what would have happened if there were not alternative TPV's available when LL introduced Viewer 2?  How many people would have left the grid as being now unusable?

/me shudders at the thought.

---

Yes you are completely right. 

As much as I see that a proprietary LL viewer would have helped LL now in keeping control of the SecondLife Service and how much it would have reduced / almost eliminated one of SL's biggest problems (Copy-Botting on the grid), I think we all know what happens where there is no competition within a product or service.

If LL forced SL and its viewer to be locked and internally developed only, we would now be stuck / forced to use a horrendous LL Viewer.  We would not have a lot of the innovative functions, features, solutions that TPV like Emerald and Phoenix brought to the SL Residents (even against LL's wishes for them to do so).

It was the presence of the TPVs and their quick moving, customer driven, innovative teams that introduced the competitive atmosphere that forced LL's undesirable LL Viewer to even introduce changes they surely would never have done if the TPVs were not in the market.

But sadly these surprising out-of-the-blue and extremely fast to execute LL policies will surely have a huge impact on the incentive of these TPV's to continue to innovate.  I am sure a lot of wind left their sails on Friday.  You could clearly hear it in their voices on the audio - a sense of "the end is near" and "LL is starting to shut us down" attitude.

Oz only provided lame arguments on the reasons for this new policy and everyone listening to him could easly tell was nothing more than excuses from LL for a policy that has alterior motives. 

The one that made me laugh was when Oz said the reason that LL wants Viewer Tagging to be removed from avatars is because SL Noobs were being harrased!   ROFL laughing.  What grid did he hear that from?  The unspoken truth was that LL did not like that highly visible message over all SL resident's heads that most residents dont use the LL Viewer.  Everyone on the audio sesssion knew that.

So for those of you that truly believe that LL's recent TPV crushing policies will have no impact on the future of TPV's developing for the SL Grid.....  ask yourself this...

If you were on one of these teams and you are getting no revenue / profits from all your efforts create and support these TPVs and what drives you and your team is just the internal satisfaction of being innovative and developing viewers for SL that provides a clear value add to the overall experience of SL for residents. 

Then LL shocks you one day by telling you in one meeting that :

1) many of the functions in your TPV that many of your customers love will be removed for "privacy" reasons, 

2)  LL will "break" these functions in the next 5 days with no ability to properly warn and socialize these removed functions and knowing that all the SL residents will attack your team (not LL) with support calls and anger on why these functions all of a sudden were removed.

3)  LL add another policy that limits many of the innovations to improve the experience on the grid unless LL first blesses it AND THEN LL develops it themselves for you to use later !  

4)  And you know that regarding point #3, many of these innovative ideas have often been rejected by LL and even if they werent rejected, LL simply does not have the resources to take on this development of your ideas.

5)  Finally you are not a stupid person as a TPV developer and you can see that LL's long term objective is to choke you out of the market and so you are now waiting for the next call from Oz Linden to tell you that "here are the next rounds of TPV restrictions that we left as exceptions last time".

So.... if you are in the TPV's shoes.. tell me how inspired you are to keep developing TPVs for LL and SL ?

 

---

i'm just curious  and i've asked this a few times in other threads..how many things are there in tpv's that are not client side that would impact the grid to where a user on an LL viewer would notice it?

i really can't think of too many things they would share that they don't see together in the same way..most things that make tpv's worth getting are client side..

i know these few that i have heard of in these threads that are falling under the gun are getting clipped..

but are there any others also?

there is the true online status that is going away which is breaking a lot of stuff..then the viewer tags and the color tags..

i heard they were working on a parcel windlight or they had it??i never really used it if they had..

i hadn't heard about it until i heard that audio hehehe

i'm just curious what all else there is that is getting pulled??

those are all i could really think of off the top of my head..

to me a lot of the features that i notice most are the ones that really are client side..to me there is still a lot of worth in making those features..enough of a reason for tpv's to stay..

look at how many client side features there are vs the world impact features that would show two different views in two different viewers...

not many on the shared experience..

they can still make shared experience features as long as the same experience is there visually or however it is experienced ..but they may have to get the tpv to actually use that option..

if LL is going to weed out tpv's they will weed them out..

i just think there is still a lot of room to be innovative i guess is all i am saying..i would hate to see them leave..but i guess i could understand if they did as well..

it would just suck is all =(

ETA: i would like to add what i see that LL is doing with all this..it's been something that has been said again and again by philip in the past..

they need everyone on one standard type viewer to get the same second life experience..i think since they know they can't get them all to the LL viewer to do that..they have to make all the viewers comply to giving the same second life experience..that's not excluding client side features from second life..just features that are going to impact the world for more than just the client..

the last time i heard philip say this was when he was on that video saying that they will be merging the teens to the main grid..so i don't think this is a new plan..because he was saying it before that as well..

i'm just looking way back and way forward and making a guess like everyone else..that's what i think they are moving to anyways..

i could be as right or as wrong as anyone else in the guessing game..only time will tell i guess hehehe

 

 

 

[Cincia Singh]

You're a little late to the party. The ranting about this came and went epic over the wekend. I guess you were otherwise occupied. I use Firestorm as well as other viewers (not LL's very often).

As far as I can see nothing in this policy change kills a TPV. It seems many are already compliant. And I'm not aware of any pending Firestorm enhancements that this change impacts.

No more viewer tags is not going to affect business but may tone down some harrassment and juvenile hazing behavior.

As for finding out if someone is online when they choose to NOT allow anyone to find out ... I wasn't aware that was anyone's "right" but their own. This change will have unfortunate fallout for some inworld products, but commercial advantage or convenience is not a reason to violate someone's privacy.

The only TPV innovations that will be curbed are those that change how residents see the world unless they use a particular viewer. This is a good thing since the grid should always look the same regardless which viewer a person uses. As I understand it the original idea behind open sourcing the viewer (a long time ago) was to add innovation to the LL viewer. The TPVs are just a divergence from that original intention. TPVs are a good thing, but innovations have be be well reasoned and work across a lot of hardware configurations, not released on the grid on a whim or for bragging rights. And since LL has future plans that TPVs aren't privvy to (LL is a private company after all) no TPV can know how a proposed change/modification/enhancement might be affected by LL changes to the base code six months or a year down the road.

Innovation with a viewer's UI that make them more convenient for building, photography, socializing, scripting and etc. are not impacted by the policy change.

But by all means please carry on ... I could use a fgood entertaining thread on a Monday.

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Clint Snowfall wrote:

While I totally agree with what has been said here..I question if you have spent any time in the newb rezz areas in the last two years. Veteran residents do indeed harass newb residents into using a TPV. They make up any number of creative descriptions of the LL viewer to get the new people to drop v2/v3 within mintues of joining SL. Now, not all new residents fall for it and not all newb rez areas have this problem 24/7, but it occurs enough that you can find the problem.

I personally started on v2 and I loved it, I will still use v2 over any of the v1 style TPVs. BUT as soon as Firestorm came out for download in any form, I got it and I will swear by it. It is hands down better than v2.

But I enjoyed the fact that I had the decision to choose whichever viewer I wanted to use, a freedom I still enoy at this moment. If in fact LL decides to push out the TPVs, they will lose me and my SL businesses.

---

No I do not hang around the SL welcome / help sites, but I have on countless occasion had Noobs come to the Karaoke club I hang out at (which gets a lot of boobs because its SL's most popular karaoke place and on the destination guide). 

Often they have the Viewer 2 / 3 and as part of the the advice we all give them on helping them with how to sing in SL and clothing etc. we suggest with reasons why they should try replacing their viewer from LL to Phoenix.  If they say they dont want to - thats fine. 

If they ask why - we tell them that most SL residents have the phoenix viewers and if they need help or support from us on how to change their setting to sing at the club, we cant help them since most of us dont use LL viewer. Another related reason is that if over the first few weeks they have problems or questions or need help with their viewer, there is a better chance to get help from a fellow resident if they have phoenix.

Having the viewer tag over your head even helps Noobs that decide to stay with LL Viewer 2 / 3 because at least then they can ask a resident that has a similar viewer.   This will no longer be the case now that LL is forcing the viewer tag to be hidden.

Now the Noob will have to be forced to locally shout out "can someone that know the LL viewer please help me" of which they might get some biased chat back.

The removal of the viewer was based on some lame justifications and it was only to give the LL Viewer a better chance to start gaining inworld marketshare.  This is the one removed feature that doesnt personally bother me but the principle behind the reason is annoying.

The loss of True Online is going to be far far greater damage and impact to the main grid - too bad most of the TPV attendees at the meeting didnt have enough arguments.  If there were Merchants and club owners at this meeting.... Oz would have got an earful and had a new hole ripped into him.... but sadly none of these communities were there to express their concerns.

 

[Dartagan Shepherd]

---

Ciaran Laval wrote:

You will never please everyone with a client, I don't think different clients are amateur, but it seems LL want people to tweak the user interface and as you suggest, make a client that is more focussed on machinima and photography, rather than introducing new features such as avatar physics and parcel windlight, which LL deem to be world chaning events.

I think there are some grey areas here, which is where people are getting hung up, I don't see the problem with either avatar physics or parcel windlight as it doesn't change my SL much, extra attachment points though, I can see why LL would suggest that shouldn't have happened the way it did.

If you look at how MMO's develop in these areas, World of Warcraft has a lot of custom add ons, to change the layout and interface but it isn't a world changing development, it doesn't make the inworld action different, it may make it more comfortable for people to play, but it doesn't add anything new in the game itself, I think that's where LL are coming from, they maybe haven't explained it well.

---

Amen to that and World of Warcraft is a great example.

Would have much rather seen a solid plugin architecture with scripting language to handle added functionality and UI themes instead of open source.

The one attempt at plugins was aimed at adding new media types, which never took off.

But if done that way, we'd have a large library of contributed viewer scripts and themes, and that might have been fun and useful.

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

So you think by LL removing True Online status, this will protect your privacy?  ROFL  OK... so tonight someone will IM ping you and wait to see if your client responds back with a "the person is currently not online" or if it gets no response.  this technique is used by countless SL residents now in case SL's online status is borked or if the user had placed themselves in LL's lame "invisible" status (unlike Yahoo's invisible status where when its set - there is no way for someone to know if you are online as the client truly acts like you are not online).

You clearly have no level of usderstanding just how many products and services use true online status to run store, clubs, staffing, support, distribution of products and updates,etc. etc.    And then for Oz to announce it on Friday and tell the TPV's that they will break it 5 days later when Oz and LL had clearly no clue of the impacts to their decision.

That is clearly irresponsible and a typical move by LL.  Sadly we see it happen all the time with the LL Commerce Team.

We can banter back and forth about just how little or big these first rounds of TPV restrictions will be to the TPV makers and the residents.... but sadly the truth will be known after the damage is done.

I could tell very clearly at the Oz audio conference that the TPV representatives were furious.  I give them credit for not jumping through the internet and taking Oz's head off.  I might have if I was in the direct cross hairs of this policy that the TPV makers were.

this is not business as usual for the TPV nor will it be for all those SL residents that use Phoenix and other viewers as opposed to LL Viewers.  The only ones that will not be impacted directly by this is LL and the LL Viewer users.  But they will be impacted when their inworld products that rely upon True Online stop woking this week. 

And as one SL Merchant asked angrily.... will LL be stepping up to refund all his 100's of customers that will be demanding refunds for a product that no longer works because LL removed the function its based on?

 

 

[Danny Nolan]

I see two possible reasons for all these bad decisions. Either 1) They have something "big planned."  As in, something that'll change SL completely. Or 2) they just have no idea what they're doing. I'lla ssume the ladder.

I seriously feel like half the time LL is just stabbing in the dark, and hoping for the best. Their decisions seem eradic, and really have NO backing whatsoever. Noobs getting harassed? rofl. I think it's because LL doesn't want us seeing Linden employees on TPVs (which I have seen before, btw). 

I've managed to keep quiet about all my frustrations with LL, but lately it's getting ... VERY hard to do so. I was actually very into the V3 client. Even the V2 client. I loved it, I used nothing but it for a long time. Then about less than a year ago, I started getting a bug which got so bad that I couldn't even be connected to SL for more than 15-20 seconds. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-28441 surfaced. And hey, guess what? Still not resolved, nor alleviated. I literally can't use LL's viewer. And haven't for almost two years now. I've been forced to use other viewers, for the simple fact this hasn't been fixed. it's not that I want to, I have to.

I've never felt like I actually am losing a lot of interesting in SL, but lately with LL's management .. I've been feeling it. It's just getting rediculous.

[Baloo Uriza]

You make it sound like a good thing that the Phoenix Developers care about anybody but themselves, and enjoy pissing on the user experience for those who don't want to play ball with them.  This selfish attitude is what got them banned once before when they were known as Emerald.  Anybody who expected any better from them really had misplaced hopes.

[Baloo Uriza]

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Can you imagine what would have happened if there were not alternative TPV's available when LL introduced Viewer 2?  How many people would have left the grid as being now unusable?

---

Just the whiners.  It's not like the code tree went away, the resident devs could still check out code and resubmit patches.  Strangely, the Phoenix crew doesn't seem to give back to the code tree ever by submitting patches and improvements.

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Baloo Uriza wrote:

You make it sound like a good thing that the Phoenix Developers care about anybody but themselves, and enjoy pissing on the user experience for those who don't want to play ball with them.  This selfish attitude is what got them banned once before when they were known as Emerald.  Anybody who expected any better from them

really

 had misplaced hopes.

---

LOL... wow now that is such a compelling argument to the discussion thread.  Coming up with interpretations from my statements on Phoenix and conclusions on how a defunct TPV "Emerald" and that related generation of develoers has any relation to the Phoenix team.

First of all, the selfish attitude you seem to be seeing in this thread from me is not coming from a Phoenix Staffer - Im a user of Phoenix.  So the Phoenix team has displayed NO attitude in this thread since they have not even commented in this thread.

Secondly, please take a moment and try to explain how my comments in this thread brought you to a conclusion of "SELFISH ATTITUDE"?  You completely lost me and likely several others on your logic.

Now... brushing off your mis-aligned posting, why dont you try to provide some value to the discussion that is ON TOPIC.

I am guessing from your off-topic "attacking the TPVer" posting that you are a LL Viewer fan or one of the LL Fanboy that defends LL when ever they need protecting from the community.  If your topic had some relevance to the topic like trying to explain why LL's Policies made complete sense and even why TPV's should be wiped off the SL grid I would have given your posting some respect.  But it was clearly an off-topic bashing.

I will give you another chance.... please explain to all of us how what LL did made a lot of sense and how it was 100% justifiable that Oz would announce a policy that cripples a largely used inworld functionality and then gives whopping 5 days for the entire community to prepare for its removal !  I would love to hear your side of this.

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Baloo Uriza wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Can you imagine what would have happened if there were not alternative TPV's available when LL introduced Viewer 2?  How many people would have left the grid as being now unusable?

---

Just the whiners.  It's not like the code tree went away, the resident devs could still check out code and resubmit patches.  Strangely, the Phoenix crew doesn't seem to give back to the code tree ever by submitting patches and improvements.

---

Soooo what Baloo is trying to tell all of us is ....

The Phoenix team is selfish and evil and a plight on the goodness of the SL grid and Baloo would be more than happy to see the Phoenix TPV be removed from the SL grid.  Correct me if you are not saying this.

I guess your feelings from Imprudence and many of the other TPV's is the same?   What is your thoughts on TPV's?  Are you happy that LL is starting the process to get rid of them?  IF so, why?

[Deej Kasshiki]

Some in this discussion are longtime LL apologists and attack anything having to do with TPVs. Their usual lame tactic is to play the "ebil Emerald devs" card. Yawn.

I'd just ignore them Toy. They don't want discussion or exchange of ideas.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Some in this discussion are longtime LL apologists and attack anything having to do with TPVs. Their usual lame tactic is to play the "ebil Emerald devs" card. Yawn.

I'd just ignore them Toy. They don't want discussion or exchange of ideas.

 

---

Thanks Deej

As a 3+ year forum poster - mostly in the Merchant forums, I have come across and dealt with some of LL's finest cheerleaders, fanboys, apologists, etc. that in the past even set up secret behind-the-scene Cheerleader Forum gangs in order to control the forums I was participating on.  They also had the quiet support from LL when us "evil LL bashing trolls" (as myself and others that criticized LL policies, strategies, poor customer service, etc.) were too powerful against them.  I have a lot of SL Forum scars from here.

So I know very well how these LL Defenders work and they are usually very easy to deal with.   All you do is pick apart their off-topic attacks and make them explain their posting.  Most often they slither back into hiding.    Sometimes they dont.

I have absolutely no issue having a lively on-topic discussion with any forum poster that can debate logical arguments that can explain or defend LL's actions.  I will listen and I might agree or debate their posting.  But I do not tolerate off-topic LL Dedending attacks that are not on topic.

Thanks for the posting

[Perrie Juran]

---

Baloo Uriza wrote:

---

Perrie Juran wrote:

Can you imagine what would have happened if there were not alternative TPV's available when LL introduced Viewer 2?  How many people would have left the grid as being now unusable?

---

Just the whiners.  It's not like the code tree went away, the resident devs could still check out code and resubmit patches.  Strangely, the Phoenix crew doesn't seem to give back to the code tree ever by submitting patches and improvements.

---

I'm going to call that for what it is, a bald faced lie.

I really don't have a side in this issue, and I don't have the time or the umption to dig out the documentation, but I have seen public acknowledgements from Linden's thanking Firestorm Devs for work on bug fixes and other issues they identified before they hit the grid.

As far as Viewer 2 went, it sucked.  Now if calling a smelly turd what it is makes me a whiner, too bad.

Take a look at my JIRA:  https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2886

5 FPS with the Official Viewer verses 20 FPS with Firestorm Beta.

Firestorm Dev's tried to help me with my issue.  I haven't heard a single suggestion from a Linden on something I can try.

Oh, but the Firestorm Dev's are all teh kiddie haxors.  Who aren't making a penny for their work. While Linden Lab charges how much for a SIM?  In one sense, Linden's are just teh adult haxors if you really want to put things in your terms.

The truth is that none of us really know what is driving the Lab's decisions.  We can accept on face value what Oz said are the reasons, but as the Dev's said in that meeting, it was hard to believe based on the Lab's track record.  And OZ acknowledged and admitted that the Lab's track record was not good.

Do some of the Firestorm Devs have bad attitudes?  More than likely.  But I have also seen some pretty sucky attitudes from some Lindens also.

Up until that post, I'd really had a lot of respect for many things you said.  I really think you know better than this.

[Anaiya Arnold]

It's unfortunate about the specific broken content, and discussions could be had about the lsl change's direct impact, but to me the policy turn-about is the biggest issue. 

If we're breaking existing content now and waving it aside by resorting airily to vague and misconstrued claims about "work arounds" then anything is fair game for future borkage.

New avatars that break all existing texture based clothes could roll out next month for all we know and we'd not necessarily be told a thing until the week before.

 

I've never known a company so good at generating FUD about itself.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Ironically Oz said in his audio to paraphrase "we are a new LL with new management and we are not the old LL tht made a lot of mistakes".

And yet as he speaks how he and the current LL management are different, better, and more responsible, his very own policies that he was announcing that day was a Poster Child example of some of LL's most classic horrid mistakes of the past.

If we take OZ's statements at face at face value where he was completely down-playing how these policies were no biggy as as far as he knows they will not really hurt anyone.  He naively believed that these changes would have no serious impacts on the TPV developers (cough cough). 

He didnt think the changes in the name of privacy shouldnt really hurt any residents in SL.  He was not aware of the 1000's of products selling or sold that rely upon critical features like True Online Status.  When a few example came up from the TPV developers, he and his LL team basically shrugged and didnt care (i.e. I dont care about all residents that havent updated their viewers). 

He said what all old "bad" LL management always did... when he said that the few products that need to update their products from the changes will simply have to update. No care how much work and hassle that is.  He had no clue that us Merchants that write scripts and sell them for all these years based on code they trusted LL would not suddenly changed on a whim would all of a sudden have entire selling and sold product lines that dont work.  He didnt think about who would pay the customers back for products they bought from merchants that LL BROKE!

And then Oz pull another classic OLD BAD LL trick.... when he announces that nto only is LL making fundamental changes that he thought were trival but that there was no negotiating and that the first of these changes would happen in 5 days !!   And Oz believed this was ample time for the TPV's to get the message out.... heck he and LL didnt even plan to informing the rest of the SL residents at all.... like the Merchants.  He hoped the news would just get out by word of mouth.

I found out about the Oz Fiasco at my Karaoke club when it was the main local chat warning to all the members the LL will be screwing us all with new policies.

 

So isnt it ironic how OZ is bragging in the audio conference - almost with arrogance - that he and the current LL management are not the evil terrible LL management of old.... when he was being exactly them with this classic move.

The LL Commerce Team is the other comedy fest of current management that makes one big mistake after another.  Like the MP damaging DD deployment work and now this up-coming ALL-IN-ONE RECEIVE Folder that is universally hated but LL will deploy it anyway.

Nothing has changed at LL.

[Randall Ahren]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Nothing has changed at LL.

---

Don't complain so bitterly. We can post snapshots now to our feed with the new viewer. :smileywink:

[Toysoldier Thor]

LOL....

Well I read on the Jira that Oz has started to have second thoughts about his policy decisions.

He still is making the stance that there actually is a legit "PRIVACY" issue in SL on virtual SL accounts that needs protecting and that its so critical as if LL is trying to protect the privacy of RL humans as opposed to Avatars on a Virtual world (eeek dare I say charactors on a game).

But at least all the slam of protests against Oz's out of the blue policies has made him think twice.

I will give him that much credit - the old LL would not even have let the most massive of Customer Protests stop them.... remember the Homelands ?

[Zanara Zenovka]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

You clearly have no level of usderstanding just how many products and services use true online status to run store, clubs, staffing, support, distribution of products and updates,etc. etc.    And then for Oz to announce it on Friday and tell the TPV's that they will break it 5 days later when Oz and LL had clearly no clue of the impacts to their decision.

[,,,]

But they will be impacted when their inworld products that rely upon True Online stop woking this week. 

 

---

Where are you getting "5 days" and "this week" from? Do you have a reference source for that?

Audio said there would be nothing earlier than 2 weeks, at the minimum, and then it would follow the normal RC channel progression, and none of Oz's subsequent posts that I've seen have said anything about it being sooner.

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Zanara Zenovka wrote:

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

You clearly have no level of usderstanding just how many products and services use true online status to run store, clubs, staffing, support, distribution of products and updates,etc. etc.    And then for Oz to announce it on Friday and tell the TPV's that they will break it 5 days later when Oz and LL had clearly no clue of the impacts to their decision.

[,,,]

But they will be impacted when their inworld products that rely upon True Online stop woking this week. 

 

---

Where are you getting "5 days" and "this week" from? Do you have a reference source for that?

Audio said there would be nothing earlier than 2 weeks, at the minimum, and then it would follow the normal RC channel progression, and none of Oz's subsequent posts that I've seen have said anything about it being sooner.

---

listen to the audio stream - Oz was going to break the true online status this week - tues / wednesday.

[Zanara Zenovka]

Maybe you should listen to it again. As I posted in my transcripts 3 days ago - http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Merchants/Info-on-online-status-changes/td-p/1400415 - he said:

"It will go through the normal release process, so it will get broken on one or more release channels first, and then eventually it will roll out to the rest of the grid."

He couldn't name a date, but said that it would be not less than two weeks at the very least. And he posted nearly a day ago that they're now reviewing it further.

Probably best to not confuse the issue more than necessary.

 

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure.

---

Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

[Ceka Cianci]

---

Toysoldier Thor wrote:

---

Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Some in this discussion are longtime LL apologists and attack anything having to do with TPVs. Their usual lame tactic is to play the "ebil Emerald devs" card. Yawn.

I'd just ignore them Toy. They don't want discussion or exchange of ideas.

 

---

Thanks Deej

As a 3+ year forum poster - mostly in the Merchant forums, I have come across and dealt with some of LL's finest cheerleaders, fanboys, apologists, etc. that in the past even set up secret behind-the-scene Cheerleader Forum gangs in order to control the forums I was participating on.  They also had the quiet support from LL when us "evil LL bashing trolls" (as myself and others that criticized LL policies, strategies, poor customer service, etc.) were too powerful against them.  I have a lot of SL Forum scars from here.

So I know very well how these LL Defenders work and they are usually very easy to deal with.   All you do is pick apart their off-topic attacks and make them explain their posting.  Most often they slither back into hiding. 

  Sometimes they dont.

I have absolutely no issue having a lively on-topic discussion with any forum poster that can debate logical arguments that can explain or defend LL's actions.  I will listen and I might agree or debate their posting.  But I do not tolerate off-topic LL Dedending attacks that are not on topic.

Thanks for the posting

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i sure hope i wasn't coming off as off topic..it wasn't my intent..and i wasn't trying to sound like a fangirl..

i give them good and bad..

my posts may sometimes come off as i am some fangirl when really i am trying to see what they are actually doing or saying from different prerspectives..i stress the word "trying" lol

[Baloo Uriza]

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

The Phoenix team is selfish and evil and a plight on the goodness of the SL grid and Baloo would be more than happy to see the Phoenix TPV be removed from the SL grid.  Correct me if you are not saying this.

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The word you're looking for is "blight," not "plight."

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

I guess your feelings from Imprudence and many of the other TPV's is the same?   What is your thoughts on TPV's?  Are you happy that LL is starting the process to get rid of them?  IF so, why?

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Other viewers don't have problems with making unilateral decisions that adversely impact other users like viewer-specific attachment points did.  Other dev teams don't have problems with piracy (kadaku) and trust (we fixed the problem, oops, no we didn't, yes we did, err, now we really did).

You'd have to be gullible to trust the Phoenix devs at this point.

[Baloo Uriza]

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Some in this discussion are longtime LL apologists and attack anything having to do with TPVs. Their usual lame tactic is to play the "ebil Emerald devs" card. Yawn.

I'd just ignore them Toy. They don't want discussion or exchange of ideas.

 

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I wouldn't call it being an apologist at all, just anti-idiotarianist.