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Toysoldier Thor

IF LL cant compete on Innovation - Stifle Competiton

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Their IP would be the server code.  Their estate would be the servers the viewers connect to.  Since it's property, they can limit access to their property as they see fit.  As such, violations wouldn't be infringement, it'd be computer tresspass, a felony.

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If everyone in SL uses a third-party viewer to access it then Linden Lab would lose all the income that they make off the viewer. 

Which is... (wait for it...)

NOTHING.

 

Since the viewer's given away for free and needs to have some degree of support, it's actually a net liability. Where they make their money is people using the service and "buying" products and land, and what viewer people use doesn't make any difference. Although I'm sure the viewer team at Linden Lab has an ordinary sense of pride in what they do, it would show a complete lack of business sense for them to worry about whether you got your viewer by paying nothing to Linden Lab or by paying nothing to the developers of Phoenix or any other viewer.

What DOES make a difference is the sort of activity that goes on and has to be supported by the servers - and what gets seen by naive media types who wander around trying to find a sensational story.  It's the feature set of Second Life as a whole that Linden Lab wants and needs to maintain control over. If people can change this  by using a viewer that Linden Lab has no control over, THEN that becomes a problem. And that's what I see this whole thing being about.

 

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I know what you are saying but I might put it in a different spin ....

Since the viewer's given away for free and needs to have some degree of support, it's actually a net liability. Where they make their money is people using the service and "buying" products and land, and what viewer people use doesn't make any difference. Although I'm sure the viewer team at Linden Lab has an ordinary sense of pride in what they do, it would show a complete lack of business sense for them to worry about whether you got your viewer by paying nothing to Linden Lab or by paying nothing to the developers of Phoenix or any other viewer.

True that LL nor the TPV creators make $0 on the viewer they distribute.  So LL's continual back of the back position in the SL Viewer usage marketshare has no direct impact to LL in terms of direct revenue as a result of its trailing position of Viewer usage.  In fact, the term "maketshare" is a poor term to use.... Phoneix leads and LL trails in SL Viewer Adoption-share ;)

And True that LL makes ALL their revenue from the actual SL Customer activities occuring both inworld and on Markeplace.  So technically speaking on a tactical Customer transaction view of the scenario, what Viewer a customer uses to execute this transaction/activity that LL makes revenue on makes no difference.  BUT ...

Since the level for revenue generated by SL for LL from their customers is primarily based on the size of their Customer base interacting with SL and the number of ways that each customer can expend their $US / $L cash into LL's pockets, it is critical for LL to be able to ensure they can control what and when and how fast they can deploy new functions, services, "spend points" for customers to spend on.  i.e. the more new cool toys, features, functions, services introduced onto the SL grid, the more potential that money will be spent on these new products/services and hoepfully the more customers that will decide against leaving SL because they are bored or new customers join because its something new that excites them enough to join SL.

So.... the key element here related to the entire TPV issue and Oz's new TPV targeted policies is all centered around LL wanting to regain control of new services want to introduce into SL.

They have known for quite some time that their early days decision to fully endorse and promote Open Source for both the grid and the viewers has become a fundamental flaw that has been biting them for some time - over and over.  But LL management also knew that trying to fundamentally reverse this key decision would be a hugely painful and complicated and possibly even SL destroying decision.  Too many years of evolutionary third party inter-dependencies have entrenched on this architecture to back out.

BUT... when Rodvik and LL Management watched how slow mesh was and still is taking to fully adopt onto the SL grid for all customers to enjoy the "common experience", I think Rodvik likely sent a message from the top of the mountain to his minions that.... "We need to start regaining control of SL grid - this means we need to start the process of pushing the TPV developers off our grid and repatriating the viewer to be LL proprietary and exclusive to LL"

If LL could snap their fingers and make them the 100% only viewer on the SL grid, there would be huge wins for them (maybe not us customers but surely them). 

They could have developed and deployed Mesh onto the grid and then FORCED all SL customers to upgrade to LL Viewer 3 with full mesh support.  SL customers could have kicked and grumbled and all the bugs that LL viewer users experienced would have happened but as LL loves to always say "Too Bad just deal with it".  LL could have more quickly deployed MP DD (cough cough - yeah right - that was only a statement in theory) since LL would not have to worry about the pace at which TPV incorporated the needed viewer changes - especially Phoenix who is the adoption-place leader.

LL could also have dramatically reduced the continuous huge problem of inworld copy botting since much of this happens because of illicit versions of the viewer code.

Forget about all the disadvantages that SL would experience if TPV were not in existence.  All the lost innovation that TPVs brought in that LL refused to or didnt even understand was what their own customers were wanting.

Its all about LL regaining control of the viewer.   And that is why anyone that says Oz's new policies are trivial and innocent and not intended to start choking out TPVs is either naive or deceptive.  Rodvik wants to see LL regain complete control of the viewer so that LL can control their ability to introduce new services or take SL in what ever direction LL wants it to go.


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Zanara Zenovka wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

 

I know some SL Residents dont care if Viewer Tagging and Color Tagging were to go but that does not dismiss that others find it valuable.  Zanara stated earlier that she is happy to see it go.  

I said no such thing. Learn to read or stop making things up, whichever deficiency accounts for your constant fabrications.

And right from the horse's mouth in this thread of you being happy to see a menace go away (menace to you but likely not to others)....

 


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Actually it that they are braking Viewer Tags this week. online status is in the next couple weeks but he wasnt sure.

Just as well - those high-speed viewer tags racing all over the grid are a serious menace!

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How very, very sad and controlling of Linden Labs... if there was another world up to scratch.. I'd be gone... seriously... Why can people like Phoenix Viewer not innovate any more? 

What a bunch of wasters... Perhaps they'd like to join us in SL sometimes and experience the amazing place it really is - there really is no need to stamp on innovators like this... 

I understand about privacy... that's fair enough... we're all entitled to it... not that it's something I'm too bothered about... but you're stamping on innovators... why? Why? WHY?

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Don't delude yourself into thinking there's such a thing as virtual nirvana. If there was another VW with the same complexity and concurrency as SL it would have very similar controls; maybe more depending on their business model. The idea that a company could operate a VW without controls is frankly absurd. When grids are small and sparsely populated it's in their best interest to appear loose and free, and they can afford to allow some "cowboy" mentality on the grid with low server loads and resources to spare. But when loads on the servers start to mount with concurrency and performance diminishes due to the behavior of small groups of residents it's only prudent to exert control that helps to insure a basic level of performance for all residents. That's called stewardship and good management.

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 It is very telling that LL first of all did not invite comment on their original post and have not sent any Linden to clarify 2k on this thread. I run my alt on V3 and it is usable. As far as innovation goes need anyone be reminded of V2 or the fact that it has taken LL till now to supply a usable viewer since it announced the demise of V1?( a viewer incorporating 'innovations' which have been present in TPVs for some time, probably, I would expect, using code from those TPV.)

2k is nebulous enough so that it can be read in 2 ways: 1. You can't put anything in your viewer that we don't have in ours or 2. You can't put anything in your viewer that we (LL) do not want in SL or without giving us lead time to include the cool stuff in ours too. While I would love to think #2 is the case but 5 yrs of SSL experience tells me it's #1.

Now being forced to use V3 is not a deal-killer for me (I also do not limit myself to SL for my virtual world experience), but LL needs to be aware that the 2 most popular TPVs are also being groomed for other grids. Some of those grids have the rudiments of an economy beginning AND have what SL doesn't and probably will never have: the ability to move between grids (primitive now but improving day by day), so worst case scenario is that LL will be killing innovation on SL while the rest of the virtual community moves ahead.

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This is ridiculous.

I know some of the Phoenix/Firestorm team worked on the Emerald viewer, but this pillorying of those that saved some of the project and have succeeded in making the second most popular viewer in Secondlife has really got to stop.

It is time to get over the behaviour of part of that team and realise that their work has done more to enrich our experience of Secondlife than any other group.  Firestorm does not eat your babies nor does it steal your passwords.  It does eat a lot of RAM, mind you, but then so do LL viewers.

There are folk who have posted on this thread that should know better than to mudsling in this unseemly fashion.

Also, to call what Linden Lab is currently attempting to do "Stewardship and Good Management" is breath-takingly wrong.  It is none of those things, and some of the actions taking place on the JIRA today are worryingly desparate.

I do not understand how so many supposedly intelligent folk can be so trenchantly wrong-headed.

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How about a little sanity for a second? We know, at best, 1/2 the "bigger picture" ... the half we get from sitting in front of our computers reflecting on how everything affects us and getting frustrated. What we DON'T know is the other 1/2 of the big picture ... that would be the half of the big picture seen from the Linden side of SL. I have to say you couldn't pay me enough to listen to some of the things people post.

Imagine someone using terms like "boneheaded" "irresponsible" "naive" "inept" and "careless" to describe the work WE do at our RL jobs when they don't have a clue about everything we do and how we have to do it due to our workplace rules. What value would we put on that person's opinion? Would that approach make us want to help them with their problems?

In the past I've used the same tactics and language when confronting frustrating customer service situations, as a customer, and gotten precious little in return for my angst and bluster. I probably got more help than I deserved. But I soon realized that if I want to be taken seriously and have someone sympathetic to my needs help me with my issues I need to be calm, collected, clear, employ patience, explain my issue clearly several times, and realize that there is only so much anyone can do to resolve some situations; no one can make everyone happy all the time. And in some situations there is no way to make anyone happy. That's called life.

So if anyone thinks posting insulting rants and derogatory & inflammatory rhetoric will make the situation better, please continue .. the lulz, for the sane among the readers, is epic. :matte-motes-kiss:

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Cincia Singh wrote:

Imagine someone using terms like "boneheaded" "irresponsible" "naive" "inept" and "careless" to describe the work WE do at our RL jobs when they don't have a clue about everything we do and how we have to do it due to our workplace rules. What value would we put on that person's opinion? Would that approach make us want to help them with their problems?

that-point-bears-repeating.jpg

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Perhaps my view on this is a bit... over simplified?

 

But quite honestly I dont understand this LL decision from a business standpoint.  LL creates SL and a free viewer, makes the viewer source code open source, free TPV's are made, increasing customer satisfaction, which in turn leads to the customer being on SL more often, thus spending more money on lindens/land/marketplace... and when LL introduced new features and a new compatable viewer, compatible TPV's were made which helped LL keep their customers not only while they worked out the immense number of bugs, but also with the massive shock the change brought for many customers, which may have otherwise left SL and taken their real money with them....and now as far as linden labs sees it, this is a BAD thing? 

 

It is a FACT... the more satisfied a person is with their expereince, the more they will return to that experience, and the more they are willing to spend on it.  So honestly what does it matter if a TPV has more use because of greater functionality?!   That simply means MORE people will find what suits them the best, and will PAY MORE for their experience. My bet is the Phoenix/Firestorm users vastly outnumber the LL viewer users, in fact I dont know many long time members, those who spend big money on big lindens, to use LL viewer because it is relatively unstable and less user freindly.  This seems far more like an ego thing.  Like a child crying because no one want to play with their toys, but wants the better toys of the other kids... instead of at the least taking pride in developing the source code that the other viewers were created from.

 

I have seen people say it "levels the playing field" because some have better features than LL viewer.  It is simply a matter of choice of FREE viewers.  I dont see why it matters if there is a "level playing field" when at any time a person can CHOOSE to switch viewers for free and have all the functionality they want to quash.

 

This really is nothing but 100% ego from LL, to the point of hurting their own bottom line. Not too bright IMO.  Happy people spend more on what makes them happy.  upset or frustrated people see a growing waste of time, and find some better use for their money.  But I suppose money means little to a business, as long as they can take the other kids toys and break them, loosing all their little freinds in the process of their outburst.  But that is just my two cents.

 

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Flamie Parkin wrote:

But quite honestly I dont understand this LL decision from a business standpoint.  LL creates SL and a free viewer, makes the viewer source code open source, free TPV's are made, increasing customer satisfaction, which in turn leads to the customer being on SL more often, thus spending more money on lindens/land/marketplace... and when LL introduced new features and a new compatable viewer, compatible TPV's were made which helped LL keep their customers not only while they worked out the immense number of bugs, but also with the massive shock the change brought for many customers, which may have otherwise left SL and taken their real money with them....and now as far as linden labs sees it, this is a BAD thing?

The only people saying the Lindens hate innovation is the Emerald crew.  What the most contentious point changes is that your experience is not degraded because you don't use a specific viewer that has a feature that does something radically different than the rest of the virtual reality.  Best example of a feature that degrades the shared experience if you don't use the same viewer: The extended attachment points that Emerald/Phoenix has.  If you're not using that viewer, you get bits of avatar floating in space.

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To those who keep hammering on TPVs and copy botting; this problem existed LONG before LL open-sourced their code. There were a few unscrupulous programmers who made viewers that made the process much simpler via tools built-in to their viewers but, the fact of the matter is this: Any information displayed on your screen can be intercepted at a very low (hardware) level and copied. There are all manner of free hack programs out there that intercept the OpenGL data and copy it. Short of disabling your video card there is NO FOOLPROOF WAY to stop a determined copybotter. Period. LL could ban all TPVs tomorrow and the problem would still exist.

Unless some of you guys know how to change the laws of physics, copy-botting is a problem that will be with us. Look at all the content ripped from other games out there. None of them are open sourced.

And Baloo you seriously need to stop with the FUD. Emerald no longer exists, ok? That horse has been dead for over a year so please quit beating it. You don't help your arguments and just make yourself look silly and biased.

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Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Any information displayed on your screen can be intercepted at a very low (hardware) level and copied
.

That's been true for any format, anywhere at any time.  As Rob Malda once said, quite accurately, on an episode of Slashdot Radio about 10 years ago when the DMCA was still being debated in congress, "If you can view it, you can copy it."

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Deej Kasshiki wrote:

Any information displayed on your screen can be intercepted at a very low (hardware) level and copied
.

That's been true for any format, anywhere at any time.  As Rob Malda once said, quite accurately, on an episode of Slashdot Radio about 10 years ago when the DMCA was still being debated in congress, "If you can view it, you can copy it."

Although the statement is true in ripping a 2D image from a screen of a game... (and I will state now that I could be wrong on this)
without access to the opensource VIEWER code
that can be corrupted for maliscious purposes and then login to the 3D world of SL where the Viewer would directly receive - not 2D information from the server but 3D object data from the server of objects the viewer see inworld, how can someone COPYBOT 3D content simple from seeing the 2D displayed representation of the object.

i.e. if I have a legit LL or TVP viewer in SL and I can see the dress on your avatar.... I clearly can see the design and I clearly can take a snapshot of the dress you are wearing.  But unless I can get direct access to the 3D data feed that the legit viewer code is receiving from the sim server that tells the viewer how to display layers of 3D objects from a 2D perspective.... how will I be able to STEAL or COPYBOT the dress on your avatar and copy it and sell an illegal version of the 3D content back in SL?

Please educate me how the statement "If you can view it, you can copy it." works for stealing 3D content from a 2D view.

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Cincia Singh wrote:

 

Imagine someone using terms like "boneheaded" "irresponsible" "naive" "inept" and "careless" to describe the work WE do at our RL jobs when they don't have a clue about everything we do and how we have to do it due to our workplace rules. What value would we put on that person's opinion? Would that approach make us want to help them with their problems?

 

What value should I place on my customer's opinion, however ill-informed?  Well to get that answer you merely have to ask, "how much do I value having a solvent company or job?"  However much you value a solvent business and job, that's how much value you ought to put on your customers' opinions and level of satisfaction.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Although the statement is true in ripping a 2D image from a screen of a game... (and I will state now that I could be wrong on this)
without access to the opensource VIEWER code
that can be corrupted for maliscious purposes and then login to the 3D world of SL where the Viewer would directly receive - not 2D information from the server but 3D object data from the server of objects the viewer see inworld, how can someone COPYBOT 3D content simple from seeing the 2D displayed representation of the object.


The 3D wireframe and textures still exist in VRAM in decoded form.  It's not a 2D image until it hits your monitor.  For things to work like you think they work, everything would have to be rendered prior to sending it to your system over the Internet.

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:

What value should I place on my customer's opinion, however ill-informed?  Well to get that answer you merely have to ask, "how much do I value having a solvent company or job?"  However much you value a solvent business and job, that's how much value you ought to put on your customers' opinions and level of satisfaction.


That wrongly assumes that the customer is never wrong, and that the customer knows what's better for everyone else who also works with that company.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:


Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Although the statement is true in ripping a 2D image from a screen of a game... (and I will state now that I could be wrong on this)
without access to the opensource VIEWER code
that can be corrupted for maliscious purposes and then login to the 3D world of SL where the Viewer would directly receive - not 2D information from the server but 3D object data from the server of objects the viewer see inworld, how can someone COPYBOT 3D content simple from seeing the 2D displayed representation of the object.


The 3D wireframe and textures still exist in VRAM in decoded form.  It's not a 2D image until it hits your monitor.  For things to work like you think they work, everything would have to be rendered prior to sending it to your system over the Internet.

Understood but then why has all copybotting incidents that I always read about and know about in SL pertain to it coming from a users of a corrupted copybotting version of the opensource code when they could have been much more stealthy and just taking the data from the VRAM using LL Viewer and not be banned because of the viewer they were using?

You would think it would be the dumbest form of SL copybotting to use an easy to identify copybotting viewer when you know many stores and sims will ban you. 

I suspect that the mesh data sent to your VRAM in your system technically could be used as a place to get the critical 3D mesh information that would then have to be brought back into SL and turned back into SL Content.  But if this is possible - it must be so complicated that its generally not worth the effort to steal content. 

From all I read about CopyBotters on SL... the tool used most often is corrupted opensource viewer code.  Restrict development access to the code of the viewers that could log into SL and I would strongly suspect the % of copybotting would drop dramatically.  Obviously not ZERO but to a level that it would not come up weekly on the Merchant threads as a topic.

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Toysoldier Thor wrote:

Understood but then why has all copybotting incidents that I always read about and know about in SL pertain to it coming from a users of a corrupted copybotting version of the opensource code when they could have been much more stealthy and just taking the data from the VRAM using LL Viewer and not be banned because of the viewer they were using?

Two theories: 1) Path of least resistence, 2) a lot of people on the SL forums seem prone to take as fact whatever "sounds good to them," and reject actual fact.  Keeping in mind, though, most copybotters aren't using the open source codebase, but code that was developed prior to the release of the viewer code, I'd say either theory is plausible.  It's not like traffic sent to/from the grid is encrypted, it'd seriously increase the bandwidth and CPU costs for all involved, degrade performance and negate all benefits from moving textures to HTTP.  

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Anaiya Arnold wrote:


Cincia Singh wrote:

 

Imagine someone using terms like "boneheaded" "irresponsible" "naive" "inept" and "careless" to describe the work WE do at our RL jobs when they don't have a clue about everything we do and how we have to do it due to our workplace rules. What value would we put on that person's opinion? Would that approach make us want to help them with their problems?

 

What value should I place on my customer's opinion, however ill-informed?  Well to get that answer you merely have to ask, "how much do I value having a solvent company or job?"  However much you value a solvent business and job, that's how much value you ought to put on your customers' opinions and level of satisfaction.

LOL.... you beat me to the point.  Basically what I would have said.

The employee of a company that openly criticizes the displayed anger and attitude of their customer as opposed to READING & UNDERSTANDING the source of the messages coming to the company and being more retrospective as to WHY a customer could be so openly furious at the company......

This is a company with a culture that is clearly in the early immature stages of corporate culture and still believes that their customers should bow to them for their amazing products and services they brought to the market.  A culture that still sees the customer as a burden to them - not the ones that ultimately puts a paycheck in their employee's hands.

It also speaks loads as to why even LL Sr. Management pulls of actions like Oz's recent Privacy / TPV policies with very little understanding as to the true impact to his decisions.

Cincia..... your posting makes all the sense in the world coming from the LL culture.

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Baloo Uriza wrote:



The only people saying the Lindens hate innovation is the Emerald crew. 

 

Gee, I had no idea approximately half the grid were part of the "Emerald crew". 

Oh noes!  I'm surrounded?

Is this why my latest "Guide to the Galaxy" appears to be missing a T, N and apostrophe from the text on the front cover?

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LOL I wish I were smart enough in technology to even be considered to be on the Emerald crew or any TPV crew for that matter.

But yess... how did Emerald go under with 1000's of staff on board? lol

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Toy, I don't think the server is sending 2D information.  That's the whole point.

 

EDITED TO ADD: I see I'm a bit late to this party......I only stepped away to get a coffee before I clicked the post button. :matte-motes-bashful-cute-2:

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