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Charlar Linden

Update on some mesh related statistics

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Because of the US holiday, we weren't able to have the content creation usergroup. I had planned to give you all some information on mesh related stats there, so I'll just do it here instead.

 

  • Mesh adoption on the grid continues a steady rise, hitting 25% of the grid today. This means that a quarter of all regions on the grid contain at least one rezzed mesh object (not counting avatars, obviously).
  • More than 2/3 of residents are using mesh enabled viewers; this trend is also on a steady upward trend. Session data mirrors this trend.
  • Regarding the uploading of mesh objects, we have a steady upward trend in both volume and unique uploaders for the past couple months.

See you all at the UG next week, or in-world between then and now.

Charlar

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This is good news.  I have been heavily promoting mesh (which Nacy and I made in collaboration) to my customer group since Phoenix was mesh enabled. I see some mesh promotion in the trending feeds. :-)

 

I would never have volunteered to go through the special hell of having to learn Blender to remain competitive, but now that mesh is here, I have to say the artistic possibilities make it worthwhile. So I am glad people are adopting something that will do for content in SL what Windlight did for the environment.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

This is good news.  I have been heavily promoting mesh (which Nacy and I made in collaboration) to my customer group since Phoenix was mesh enabled. I see some mesh promotion in the trending feeds. :-)

Have you released any 100% mesh prefab buildings yet Pam?

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Fun with savings but also fun with stuff that looks way, way better. Best improvement ever to SL.

Upload optimization has been a stiff learn though!

Pretty soon the main building in my facility is going mesh and the group has been warned. :D

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Thanks for the stats Charlar - I've often wondered just how many (or few) people have been switching to mesh capable viewers. Nice to know that the non-meshies are now a minority (and a shrinking one by the sounds of it). Good times all round!

(And keep up the good work behind the scenes - I for one appreciate the hard work you Linden peeps do) :matte-motes-smile:

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Porky Gorky wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

This is good news.  I have been heavily promoting mesh (which Nacy and I made in collaboration) to my customer group since Phoenix was mesh enabled. I see some mesh promotion in the trending feeds. :-)

Have you released any 100% mesh prefab buildings yet Pam?

No -- what I have seen of them so far is awesome tho!

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Kudos Pam! I'm very happy you see the possibilities. Personally, I look at product creation, when pertaining to objects, in a whole new way. Don't get me wrong tho, it's a pain in the butt to learn, but it is all very much worth it.

Now, convincing the public and countering all the bad uninformed press, that's quite the challenge. I don't really blame any 1 thing, or the new creators that complain or don't understand mesh yet. It does go overboard when those same inexperienced people become very vocal tho.

When the mesh deformer is released, I'm sure we'll see an even bigger surge for mesh.

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These stats are great and confirm the trends I have been seeing as well. I feel like a noob sometimes learning to build differently, but I believe it is well worth it.

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The problem with adoption is that the mesh viewers are slower, and some cannot afford the performance hit. 

That is why I am also sharing data with my customers about the relative speed of viewers.  The official LL viewer is the slowest, I believe, or among the slowest.

 

 

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Pamela Galli wrote:

That is why I am also sharing data with my customers about the relative speed of viewers.  The official LL viewer is the slowest, I believe, or among the slowest.

I use both Firestorm (3.2.2) and Linden Lab latest viewer. For me both run well with good frame rates. No noticeable performance difference between the two. Which is quite logical as both have the same rendering code in them.

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It's been a while since I compared viewers, but LL being the slowest wasn't what I noticed. I think the latest phoenix before mesh phoenix came available was considerably slower even.

Logging on with a V2/3 viewer in a laggy environment gave me some issues back then, that's why I tried V1, which as I recall it was superior on logon, but far worse after everything was loaded. Must have been 2 months or so ago.

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I do lots of Roleplaying in SL in various Roleplays, and almost none of my felllow roleplayers uses mesh enabled viewers, as they are very unstable, 2-5 memory access related crashes within one hour are 'normal' with mesh viewers, regardless if it's an official LL viewer or a TPV.

Now, don't tell me, my computer is too old, using an  AMD FX 8150 octa-core machine with 16 GB of DDR-3 1666 RAM and a nVidia 590 GTX GPU here.

If you want to see my crash statistics based upon in-world tests that took me a long long time? IM me in world, I can send it to you on a NC

Besides the fact, that mesh viewers are incredibly  unstable, there are other disadvantages for me: Mesh might be great for correctly made! objects like buildings or vehicles, if teh creator knows what to do and does not create simple tables with a PE of almost 50 ( IM me in world, I have such a table and I can show it to you if you don't believe me). Mesh for clothes or avatar attachments is still unuseable, it can't be resized, it can't be moved on the avatar, you have to hide your shape under alphas to make mesh clothes 'fit', and the mesh parametric deforme has been a big dissapointment for me so far, as it does absolutely not work like expected  (yet?)

To me the implementation of Mesh is a big step away from stability and usability/immersion and I will not use a mesh viewer as daily viewer unless forced to.

LL should abandon Mesh immediately or fix the serious Mesh-related bugs as soon as possible

J.

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Jean Horten wrote:

I do lots of Roleplaying in SL in various Roleplays, and almost none of my felllow roleplayers uses mesh enabled viewers, as they are very unstable, 2-5 memory access related crashes within one hour are 'normal' with mesh viewers, regardless if it's an official LL viewer or a TPV.

I can honestly tell you I haven't crashed one single time on the official LL viewer (knock on wood). Some TVP's do, but it is hardly worth mentioning, not 2-5 in an hour, but maybe once every week. This doesn't change the fact that you do crash, so there's something that needs fixing somewhere, but if your crashes are related to memory, I wonder why I don't crash. My computer isn't nearly as powerful as yours. (AMD3800+, NVidia 9600GT, 2.5 RAM (after the GPU stealing .5), Win XP)


Jean Horten wrote:

Besides the fact, that mesh viewers are incredibly  unstable, there are other disadvantages for me: Mesh might be great for correctly made! objects like buildings or vehicles, if teh creator knows what to do and does not create simple tables with a PE of almost 50

People make objects just as horrible with sculpts or normal prims, the landimpact won't show it as clearly since they are given a grandfather bonus. That 50 LI/PE table is where it should be and I bet that's where it will stay, in your inv, or better the trashcan. No sensible person will rezz that thing, so I wouldn't worry about it being a load on anyone, let alone the reason of a crash.

 


Jean Horten wrote:

LL should abandon Mesh immediately or fix the serious Mesh-related bugs as soon as possible

There is work to be done no doubt, but that's a harsh statement I can't share. My draw weight is now easily under 40k, where LL wants it to be. Without mesh thats a daunting task to say the least, if you don't want to go around naked and bald anyway.

 

 

 

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I have been using viewer 2 and 3 almost exclusively since last August and have not experienced crashes or losses in performance either. This is just my personal experience. I am friends with some other creators who also use the official viewer.

 

I think with any new feature like this there are going to be bugs. My own opinion is that the wise course is to overcome them and learn from them in this instance because I do believe mesh will be worth it.

 

Good points were raised about the deformer and mesh clothing. I am not sure where things stand with regard to correcting that, but am under the impression LL is working with Qarl on that. Again I am not sure but it would be nice for clothes to work more easily. I agree

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Coby Foden wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

That is why I am also sharing data with my customers about the relative speed of viewers.  The official LL viewer is the slowest, I believe, or among the slowest.

I use both Firestorm (3.2.2) and Linden Lab latest viewer. For me both run well with good frame rates. No noticeable performance difference between the two. Which is quite logical as both have the same rendering code in them.

The data I saw suggested that it was viewers like Phoenix, Singularity, Cool Viewer, Catznip, etc. that were among the fastest.   I don't know about stability because the only one of these that's for Mac is Phoenix, and it crashes.

I am glad some people are not experiencing slowdowns and instability but quite a lot are. For mesh to be viable, there must be stable, reasonably fast mesh viewers for at least 80% of the grid.

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For those who are interrested, I can send you some links to memory access related crash LL  Jiras. Yes, Jiras, there are various of them, all mesh viewer related. And if you look at the statements LL made regarding the mesh deformer, it will be implemented as half hearted as Mesh itself in regards of  clothes. I still say: Abandon it, it's dysfunctional and causes more problems than benefits.

J.

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Jean Horten wrote:

For those who are interrested, I can send you some links to memory access related crash LL  Jiras.

Just post them here, that's a lot easier for everyone.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

The data I saw suggested that it was viewers like Phoenix, Singularity, Cool Viewer, Catznip, etc. that were among the fastest.   I don't know about stability because the only one of these that's for Mac is Phoenix, and it crashes.

I am glad some people are not experiencing slowdowns and instability but quite a lot are. For mesh to be viable, there must be stable, reasonably fast mesh viewers for at least 80% of the grid.

Although, I do have to suggest other viewers for some things, I don't generally like to tell people to use old viewers. Clinging to those old viewers is an extremely bad thing for SL. Yeah, I understand that LL does make it difficult, especially when the user has to screw around with settings just to get a decent frame rate, or even move at all. Maybe, if more people were actually using the new viewer, some of these things would get fixed.

Here is where I'm confused. We have all these people complaining about v3, even still, yet these same complainers do absolutely nothing to advance the viewer, besides complaining. I've never understood this. Of course, I'm not a saint, but as much as I do complain, I also do whatever i personally can to help fix a problem, if I can. Believe me, I hate, hate, hate dealing with the jiras, and then watching as nothing gets done with them, but I have seen more jiras addressed recently. Now, if we could actually get the fixes in the viewer, we'd start moving forward. Why it takes months and months and months, to change a few lines of code, I'm perplexed. I have 1 that is now almost 5 years old and just got a flurry of activity in Oct. Nope, still not implemented, nor has any activity happened on it since Oct. This is now the 3rd time in my SL career that I've gotten my hopes up on this peticular jira. 5 years, on a bug that breaks every looping animation. Not cool at all. Sorry, it's hard for me not to complain about this 1.

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Oh, but I should say, I think V3 is probably 1 of the best SL viewers we've had in a long time. Maybe not with frame rate, but the UI, profiles, and some others are definitely major improvements. I just don't want to make it sound like I don't like what LL has been doing with it. The only other viewer that I even think about using, is Exodus, but that is more for playing around. It really is hard for me to understand why any1 would want to use an old viewer.

 

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Medhue Simoni wrote:


Pamela Galli wrote:

The data I saw suggested that it was viewers like Phoenix, Singularity, Cool Viewer, Catznip, etc. that were among the fastest.   I don't know about stability because the only one of these that's for Mac is Phoenix, and it crashes.

I am glad some people are not experiencing slowdowns and instability but quite a lot are. For mesh to be viable, there must be stable, reasonably fast mesh viewers for at least 80% of the grid.

Although, I do have to suggest other viewers for some things, I don't generally like to tell people to use old viewers. Clinging to those old viewers is an extremely bad thing for SL. Yeah, I understand that LL does make it difficult, especially when the user has to screw around with settings just to get a decent frame rate, or even move at all. Maybe, if more people were actually using the new viewer, some of these things would get fixed.

Here is where I'm confused. We have all these people complaining about v3, even still, yet these same complainers do absolutely nothing to advance the viewer, besides complaining. I've never understood this. Of course, I'm not a saint, but as much as I do complain, I also do whatever i personally can to help fix a problem, if I can. Believe me, I hate, hate, hate dealing with the jiras, and then watching as nothing gets done with them, but I have seen more jiras addressed recently. Now, if we could actually get the fixes in the viewer, we'd start moving forward. Why it takes months and months and months, to change a few lines of code, I'm perplexed. I have 1 that is now almost 5 years old and just got a flurry of activity in Oct. Nope, still not implemented, nor has any activity happened on it since Oct. This is now the 3rd time in my SL career that I've gotten my hopes up on this peticular jira. 5 years, on a bug that breaks every looping animation. Not cool at all. Sorry, it's hard for me not to complain about this 1.

I will stick with the old viewers as long as they have the functionality I want and v 3 or Firestorm does not. When that reverses, I will switch.

I have to have radar.  I have to have copy position, copy rotation, copy size, align textures. I used v 3 before Phoenix got mesh enabled, but dropped it as soon as I could.  The viewer is my builder's toolbox -- I can't use one missing the hammer and screwdriver. I have made dozens of JIRAs about various things, and voted on a lot more. I don't see much response from LL -- a few, a Linden asked a question or two, then wandered off and forgot about it.

 

 

 

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Hey, that's really informative for me. Not that I can do anything, but good for me to understand more why so many are not switching. I just don't do that much in the way of building, I guess, to see what you see. Maybe it might be good to start a thread about all those parts you still need or want. I think you did do this before. I know, i have in the animation forum, and i need to again.

For me tho, I just can't do without using all the new features. Many of them, I really like.

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I might use viewer 3 if LL added the missing functionality but they are just not making their viewer for builders like me, and I am sure they are supremely well aware of what the TPV's have that they do not.  They just rejected Qarl's prim alignment tool, for example.

 

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The only problem I have with TPVs is how things get done. Before the V2 switch, the TPVs were the viewer plus. With V2 and beyond, many TPVs are choosing which standard features to add or not, or they just take forever to implement them. The latest version of Firestorm does not even have the new UI button system, and it just decided to add the new profiles. Plus, I don't like their business models, cause they basically have none, which gives me no faith any of them will be here tomorrow. Kirsten's was 1 of the few TPVs that actually was ahead of LL's viewer development. In Kirsten's viewer, you got all the latest features way before LL even got the feature to the beta viewer. Sadly, Kirsten Lee also had no business model, hence why it is no more.

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

The only problem I have with TPVs is how things get done. Before the V2 switch, the TPVs were the viewer plus. With V2 and beyond, many TPVs are choosing which standard features to add or not, or they just take forever to implement them. The latest version of Firestorm does not even have the new UI button system, and it just decided to add the new profiles. Plus, I don't like their business models, cause they basically have none, which gives me no faith any of them will be here tomorrow. Kirsten's was 1 of the few TPVs that actually was ahead of LL's viewer development. In Kirsten's viewer, you got all the latest features way before LL even got the feature to the beta viewer. Sadly, Kirsten Lee also had no business model, hence why it is no more.

I don't think that using a TPV is much of an investment, so not that concerned about their business plan. I am not interested in Firestorm since it is based on V2, not 3.  Right now there are no very good choices for me, a Mac using mesh-uploading builder.  Phoenix comes closest.

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