Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Purging the inactive - not so sure about that. People drop in when they feel like it. "Valid merchants" - tricky stuff there. Freebies kept to a minimum implies the entity controlling your business practices. Hope they don't put someone like Ralph in charge of that. As much as their glitches and faux pas wear me out on a once a week basis, they've got one heck of a draw and one heck of a cool niche in that we don't have to meet any quotas or time-stamps or be under constant pressure. Read Tari's comments above - that's what it means to a lot of people - that's their joy. Mine too. eta: The other day I saw someone very devoted to SL tell a merchant that if the only reason they came to SL was to run a business and make a profit, then basically they are not welcome and shouldn't be here. No one is going to change that concept for a lot of people. That's your base. That's a pretty common philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 We're all merchants to some degree here and I think the moment you start trying to decide who is "serious", "deserving", or who is or is not a merchant among the actual sellers of the world(even a virtual one), you have already overstepped the line. Little tough to come back from that one too, imo. Because you've already said things that place your foot firmly in your mouth. No one here, or anywhere really, gets to decide who is or is not, imo. Even the dude selling nothing but freebies offers a service to someone, somewhere. I think it does us all a little good to welcome any and all, even if we feel they are below us (I don't personally feel like anyone is below me, in fact I'd much prefer to believe everyone is above me, gives me something to work for, when I want to). I have got to admit I am finding a ton of irony in this thread though. I see at least a couple merchants who I am quite fond of as a patron that can't even follow their own, umm, advice, let alone what most would likely deem "good business practices". In fact they've downright got some really bad practices, like skipping town on their customers for months(not actually going anywhere, I mean failing to contact despite being inworld, on forums, etc..), not offering updates after promised, not fixing broken things and poor customer service in general. They'd likely be shunned by any BBB that existed to begin with, lol. But, like I said, I'm a patron of them, which means they must offer me something, right? Either that or I'm an idiot-which is entirely plausible too. See even "good" merchants, can do bad things. This is something I recognize. Personally I liken these folks to being more on my level of sorts. Whether they offer better things(including customer service) than I do, or not, I sort of put them down in the hobbiest area. So I'm a bit more forgiving when things go awry or they don't quite perform on this super mechanical and structured timeline, putting out only top dollar and top notch products, always around 24/7..etc..etc... I think you get my point. I'm actually more likely to be a patron of a business like that for the simple fact that I can connect on some level. Weird maybe, but sometimes my brain just works that way. But to then see them say what others should do, and how eliminating the merchants that perform much like they do(albeit it in different areas), sorta makes me chuckle a bit. I'm not trying to knock people I'm just not sure if some realize the irony of their statements, or if they even realize their customers are actually reading what they have to say, lol. Sometimes it does us well to think about what we say before we actually click send. Else we come off a tad bit...erm...."off" to our customers, at best, and at worst we give them reason to high tail it out of here because we can't even keep our own stories straight. In other words, if you can't actually provide even some of the most basic customer service it's probably best you not tell others that they should, lol. You haven't really a leg to stand on. edited to add-this isn't actually a reply to Chelsea, lol, I just clicked the reply button so it automatically says that..sorry for any inconvenieces, forgot it does that til after I did it...oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I don't ever want to see a Power-Seller type tag here. One of the draws, from day one, is that this place is about as level a playing field as you are ever going to come across - in physical world - or on the Internet. That's a great way to make people feel good after being beaten up all day in the physical world. It's a great draw. When you log into marketplace, there are no tags to identify which store is selling more. Yes, your search placement will indicate that, but everyone has a shot, a chance at that. If they study a bit. That's exciting! No, they could not pull that off at all right now, as they are definitely not a power service provider. People selling just a few things, or people coming in to sell out of affiliate vendors in a little shop spend a ton of time here - I know, when I log in, they are lit up on my friends list every time - ton of time here. And they buy a ton of stuff in the store. And they are having Fun. If I want to come in for a week and be aggressive on marketing and play shark, (Tari's term) - I will. If I don't feel it that week - I won't, and no one will know. At the moment, no entity or club or bureau is monitoring that. I hope that it stays that way, or it takes the joy away for a few. And it might be more than a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann Otoole Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Been tried. It is impossible for too many reasons to list. Besides I hear plurk is where people say nasty things about other merchants so maybe there already is a defacto better drama business bureau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartagan Shepherd Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 If any of that applies to me (and it does, whether intentionally or not) all I can offer is an apology (unlike LL) and a better 2012 (like LL). But guilty of that. Daily operations are always kept up with (which consist of mostly trying to figure out what refunds or replacements to give out), but updates are far, far behind. Partially due to hurry up and wait for certain functions, certain bugs to be fixed, hitting a brick wall with development and communications outside of SL with scripts, thinking mesh would be here sooner rather than later, etc. Inability to build the kind of product we want to move forward with. Ultimately no excuses and I bear full responsiblity as a merchant. Our backs are against the wall now with mesh. In order to stay current and not get crucified with future land impact calculations and script limits, we may have to go that way even though some of our customers may not be able to enjoy it because LL is unable to provide a single viewer that works for everyone, leaving TPVs to play catch up. Agree with the irony, and there's far more of it than you think on all sides. I'll take that as a nudge to shut up and get back to work. Disclaimer that I never meant that anyone should be excluded from becoming a merchant, or that they should be some form of elite class. Only that merchants should have an environment on par with any other online commerce system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbro Utu Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 As stated, been done, didn't work, still won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: edited to add-this isn't actually a reply to Chelsea, lol, I just clicked the reply button so it automatically says that..sorry for any inconvenieces, forgot it does that til after I did it...oops. /me lets out a sigh of relief when I got to the end of your post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lasher Oh Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 shhhhhhhh you might wake up Ralphy one of his elitist 'SL is a shambles' rambles is overdue I reckon. ^L^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Dartagan Shepherd wrote: If any of that applies to me (and it does, whether intentionally or not) all I can offer is an apology (unlike LL) and a better 2012 (like LL). But guilty of that. Daily operations are always kept up with (which consist of mostly trying to figure out what refunds or replacements to give out), but updates are far, far behind. Partially due to hurry up and wait for certain functions, certain bugs to be fixed, hitting a brick wall with development and communications outside of SL with scripts, thinking mesh would be here sooner rather than later, etc. Inability to build the kind of product we want to move forward with. Ultimately no excuses and I bear full responsiblity as a merchant. Our backs are against the wall now with mesh. In order to stay current and not get crucified with future land impact calculations and script limits, we may have to go that way even though some of our customers may not be able to enjoy it because LL is unable to provide a single viewer that works for everyone, leaving TPVs to play catch up. Agree with the irony, and there's far more of it than you think on all sides. I'll take that as a nudge to shut up and get back to work. Disclaimer that I never meant that anyone should be excluded from becoming a merchant, or that they should be some form of elite class. Only that merchants should have an environment on par with any other online commerce system. lol, I would never demand an apology of anyone(though they're always appreciated) but it actually didn't have anything to do with you. I've been just as guilty(as I already stated earlier) of the very same things. That's likely how I recognize them as easily...and exactly why i'm as forgiving when I do see/experience them. I know what it's like to be on the other side of those mistakes.(a little too well in some ways with rl businesses, but that's another subject for another day, haha) I'll have to state again, for the record, that such an entity only sounds good on paper. Unfortunately, that's how a lot of ideas start out. Sometimes we can make them actually BE better than they sound on paper. More times than not, we can't. That's exactly what having some sort of committee(at best) be in charge of something like this would be. If anything, it might actually scare people away, not just from purchasing from folks who haven't been branded with a seal of approval, but also from making many other purchasers. Because who in their right mind is going to trust a bunch of other beings who likely have a vested interest in the failure of their competitors. I know that probably comes off kinda harsh and not likely what's intended by the idea. But that's exactly what it would become. It wouldn't be something officially supported by LL-thankfully-which will make folks even more wary. It will likely lead to some folks thinking others have an inflated head. I hate to sound so catty(I know, doesn't seem that way but I really do), but this is what we've already got with all the "best" blogs, sites, sims, magazines and whatnot we've already got. They leave a bad taste in the mouths of thousands-far more than benefit from whatever it is they provide. They just don't see this-because they choose not to. It rubs folks the wrong way. We don't need a grammy award show, a seal of approval, a best of the best...yadda yadda... in an environment like this. If anything, we need more things that put us all on a level playing field where we belong. We need folks willing to accept that just because they think someone else isn't up to snuff, compared to them, doesn't mean they can't offer guidance, advice, assistance even...or at the very least, not think so little of them. We need for products and businesses, as much as merchants, to actually stand on their own merit(and not because they are on some list, have some approval by some agency, things like this). I dunno. I stick up for the big guy too, but the big guy doesn't need someone in his corner. The little guy does. Especially the little guy that might not know how to defend himself, or might need some help getting off the ground, making improvements. Call me kooky, but I'd rather see MORE merchants in sl, not less, even ones directly competing with me(and since I don't have a particular area that would be a lot of people, haha). I don't like ideas that would prevent someone else from taking their business plans and moving forward with them. Whether or not they succeed, we shouldn't be trying to stop them. I get that some folks don't want to help others-I don't agree, but, whatever tickles your pickle. But what I don't understand, is giving more reasons for folks to NOT want to join the creative community. We've certainly got room for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madeliefste Oh Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Tari Landar wrote: I dunno. I stick up for the big guy too, but the big guy doesn't need someone in his corner. The little guy does. Especially the little guy that might not know how to defend himself, or might need some help getting off the ground, making improvements. Call me kooky, but I'd rather see MORE merchants in sl, not less, even ones directly competing with me(and since I don't have a particular area that would be a lot of people, haha). I don't like ideas that would prevent someone else from taking their business plans and moving forward with them. Whether or not they succeed, we shouldn't be trying to stop them. I get that some folks don't want to help others-I don't agree, but, whatever tickles your pickle. But what I don't understand, is giving more reasons for folks to NOT want to join the creative community. We've certainly got room for all. I don't think it would be the aim of a BBB for SL to exclude small guys or hobby merchants. I think a lot of us merchants have proud in providing our customers a good service. Because taking responsibility for your products towards your customers is part of the pleasure that many experience from being a merchant. This 'being loyal' to your customers is an attitude you choose to have or not. Whether you have 10 products in your shop or 500 is not the point. Whether you hardly make the tier of your in world shop by selling your products, or you make a good rl income, is neither a measure for being loyal to your customers. The merchants I want to exclude are the ones that give customer negative buying experiences without taking any responsibility for their products. Recently I heared about a guy who has a light set on the marketplace, price about 2500. The set does not function. He simply doesn't react on IM's or notecards. Last time online: six months ago. So for the customer: money gone, LL does not compensate him. All with all a bad shopping experience that might lead to stop buying virtual goods. Because as a customer you don't seem to have any right at all... And this is the hole where a BBB fits into, in my eyes. We cannot give customers rights, that is not in our hands, but what we can do is give customers a garantuee. Being member of the BBB says something like 'when you buy from this merchant, you can expect respons to your questions about products and to complaints. BBB merchants may have their own store policies, read them carefully, they will act upon these.' But I guess you are right after all... these are mainly paper theories. In practice I would just be a source for drama. We are also each others competitors after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Which people are offering exceptional customer service? Would you say it is "most" of the people or just "some"? The News reporter said "people say", but the reporter never cited "who" those people are. I've completed the "check" no my house and everything is in perfect order, just as I had left it. I don't sell and I rarely buy. I have Freedom of Association. If I choose to associate with a Group of People who want change; that would be my business. I do have an example, it is called the United States of America. Citizens (customers) decide the direction and course for the Country. I don't "live" in SL either. I have no idea what the average Resident does with his or her time. I have no idea what their morals, standards and principles are. I do have a radical idea; maybe the Merchants could Put It In Writing! Then I could read from their own words, what it is they stand for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 What are the Market Place statistics? Product Delivery rate % Total number of Merchants Total number of Merchants who've logged into SL at least 1x in the past 30 days Total number of New Merchants Top 10 Merchants as rated by L$ sales Total number of active DMCA reports Total number of MP Questions answered by the free customer support offered at the Forum. The numbers will show what is really going on. I don't like how one group of people are pretending that "everything is perfect and fine at Market Place". There is plenty of room for improvement. If a person doesn't like the "rules" of a Cooperative; they don't have to join. If a cooperative can create a majority and institute change, that will be what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Writing it and slapping a badge on your front entry doesn't mean Jack. And if you believe that, you're going to get bamboozled. I have no way of knowing if it is "most" or "some" and not sure what that has to do with anything. A group will not have any effect on that number. You don't sell, so I'm not talking about your house. And if you buy....I would be more concerned for you as a buyer if there is a group slapping a badge on their doors, and handing you some bogus guarantee. It's simply a Power Play for additional Promotion, at the expense of other merchants, as well as buyers. I'm all for Promotion, but not that kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Which group is pretending that everything is fine in the marketplace? Where the heck have you been hanging out? I want to go there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Writing it doesn't mean jack? What does that say about what you have just written? Should I ignore you? I wouldn't ignore you because indifference is at the root of most problems, and contributing to that goes against what I believe I stand for. LL has made efforts towards providing a fair and balanced Market Place, but despite their efforts, MP is still has some issues. The formation of a Resident / Merchant BBB would require self governing Individuals. Many Residents may lack this ability. Are there any MP basics that we can agree upon? I still like the idea. I think the OP should continue as planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tari Landar Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 As much as I'd like to say there are "standards", because that's really what it comes down to (at least I hope, lol), I can honestly say that despite my strong desire to see them, I would never presume another should follow my actions, ideals, or desires. I know it probably sounds strange, since I DO have some set standards that often dictate who I will shop with. But that's as a customer, not a merchant. I don't want to, as a merchant, tell others what to do. I can make recommendations, give ideas, tell them what works best for me and what I've seen work(or even not work) for others. But I don't think I, or anyone actually, gets to dictate the be all end all. As Mickey pointed out, that's exactly what a badge, or seal of approval, type thing would do. It's not so much the idea itself I take issue with. It's more in how it would be brought to fruition, kept up, constantly improved upon, made known to the *entire merchant community..things like this. The actual funtionality of such a thing. Because, like I already said, it sounds fantastic, in theory. But when you really think about the functionality and how it would come to be, there are far more obstacles than you can see on paper. I don't think some seal of approval will help much, but that's my own personal hangup. I have some serious issues with some of the creators who are known grid-wide as "the best of the best"-both in their creation as well as "in person"(as in, their person/personality, etc..). I have had terrible dealings with some of them. Yet you rarely, ok *I* rarely, hear a bad word uttered, and those who dared, well lets just say it didn't bode well for those folks. I'm not pointing direct fingers, I'm not going to say who or what or anything like that. This is just one example of the type of merchant who will most likely make it through and get that special seal of approval-despite the fact that they-like most-have flaws too.That bothers me tremendously. It probably shouldn't, and it's most definitely my own hangup, but it still exists. It's one of the reasons(there are many, lol) why I seriously dislike such organizations, groups, committees and whatnot. Too unbiased for my taste. I just don't think it's possible for most people to remain unbiased. Sure a few can pull it off, but I don't think most can. Especially those who are friends with such and such merchant. How will/would you make certain they didn't overlook issues simply based on that alone? We can't pretend folks wouldn't, lol. Because they would. Unfortunately even some of my best friends in the world with the best intentions in the world, haven't made the wisest of decisions. I don't exclude myself from that either. I would never want to be on such a committee because frankly, I might be a bit too harsh if I felt I was put in such a "power" situation, or maybe I wouldn't be harsh enough, and then I'd second guess myself.. Yeesh, that's a lot of responsibility to place on the shoulders of ordinary human beings, eh? Marketplace is far from perfect, in fact I've not run into one person yet who says otherwise. It so has it's flaws. But there are just as many inworld, at least, as there are on MP. Let us not forget that a lot of the merchants on MP also have locations in world, not all, but a lot. The same goes in the reverse. Inworld or on MP, neither is immune from crappy customer service or merchants who maybe just don't care as much as others. I honestly haven't yet seen anything that gives me hope this idea(or any idea I've seen to date, so I'm not just being critical of this one) can change that. I've seena lot of ideas tossed around, many never make it off paper. But I've not found a successful one yet. Wanting change, and being able to actually create it are two totally different creatures. For now, your best bet is to let your feet, your fingers and your wallet do the talking for you. Got an issue? Use the avenues available to you, that includes word of mouth as well(within the limitations we're given in sl of course), make sure you let your money do the talking for you too. Find a wonderful creator? Use the avenues available to you to tell the masses, and continue to be a patron. I like what we've got available, for now. Though I hate the rating system on MP and think it needs either a complete overhaul and rework or simply removed...I KNOW such a rating system inworld would never work.(for the very reasons it doesn't work on MP, except likely on a larger scale inworld). So something like a BBB seems, to me from what's been described, as though it's just another rating system. Which is an epic failboat at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 What I have written is a personal opinion, and some examples from past. No, It really doesn't mean Jack. You process people's opinions, as food for thought, then you make your own decisions. I've aready got a pledge on my marketplace pages. I do not need a group of individuals to monitor that. Heaven forbid, golly gee, good grief. Posting that does not mean a thing unless you attach action and reputation to it. A badge does not supply that. A back-up hive does not supply that. But to a customer, it sure does imply that it does. And it also implies that those who do not have it offer less. I'm not sure what the marketplace has to do with this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Let me ask you this - If you have a failed product, and you're not sure how to use it or set it up....would you rather deal directly with the merchant , or would you rather submit a report to a hive of their best friends? Not to mention, people who think they are exceptional and above the rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea Malibu Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 I don't know these statistics Knowl but I am very glad you brought it up. I'll look into this and see if I can find more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 What do those statistics have to do with your topic? How does that tie in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallie Halsey Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Mickey Vandeverre wrote: What I have written is a personal opinion, and some examples from past. No, It really doesn't mean Jack. You process people's opinions, as food for thought, then you make your own decisions. I've aready got a pledge on my marketplace pages. I do not need a group of individuals to monitor that. Heaven forbid, golly gee, good grief. Posting that does not mean a thing unless you attach action and reputation to it. A badge does not supply that. A back-up hive does not supply that. But to a customer, it sure does imply that it does. And it also implies that those who do not have it offer less. I'm not sure what the marketplace has to do with this topic. Ditto on this thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medhue Simoni Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Been done?! Almost everything has been done, and failed. What succeeds has nothing at all to do with whether it has been done before, but how it is actually done. Plus, not all ideas or business structures are exactly the same. If you have this trigger finger of saying "Been done", you might want to check yourself, cause you might be in a creative rut. My 2nd point is that it is only scary when merchant groups get together when those groups have influence over the regulators, those being LL. So, cut out the Lobbying to LL part, and just make it an informative merchant concerns blog or something, then the fears would lessen. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowl Paine Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Of course I would prefer to deal directly with the Merchant, but as many Merchants have listed in their Profiles, "I have a rl, so I cannot be in SL everyday". It sure would be nice if that Merchant had an associate who may be able to help me (the customer). A BBB would imply that Merchants who participate do have something additional to offer Customers, you are absolutely correct. Maybe, this is why some Residents dislike the idea. You should consider joining the Team, we could use someone who hates the idea. Your presence would keep the system fair and balanced. :matte-motes-grin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Vandeverre Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 If you've got time to read a dang "Pledge" and be comforted (false sense of security type comfort), then you have time to read a profile before purchasing. If they have that in their profile, and it's something that sets you off, then use your own judgment, make your own decisions, without hive control. I'm not sure what you mean by second paragraph. Why would I join a team whose concept I abhor? (maybe that's a Funny!) I joined a team a while back, maybe it was a long while back, time flies, but they made something similar to a pledge in the beginning and it sounded fairly reasonable, fairly similar to my own concepts. It was a merchant style team, not set up to regulate or promise or monitor or promote to customers. Notecards started flyin' back and forth not long into the process, some roosters and hens claimed territory, (may have been all hens)....and the feathers started flying. That's been stated here in this thread by many others, concerning these type groups. That system is not going to be fair and balanced. That's fine if it's between merchants and they want to devote time and energy to scrap on power trips with each other..... (merchants are their own worst enemies, btw) .....but it's not fine to drag customers into that. And it's not fine to promote it as a "better" option over businesses who choose not to be part of the scrapping. That scrapping time could be spent on customer service! (I checked to see if there were any customer service requests before taking time to write this, btw.) I am still super curious as to how the marketplace stuff ties into this. Do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbro Utu Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 Medhue Simoni wrote: Been done?! Almost everything has been done, and failed. What succeeds has nothing at all to do with whether it has been done before, but how it is actually done. The reason it did not work before, and will never work within SL, is not because of "how it is done," but because in SL there is no true accountability/transparency, and as many alts obtainable as one desires to achieve a personal agenda. The examples of this can be seen throughout the history of SL in griefer blacklists, banks, self-appointed justice leagues, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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