Time for a SL Better Business Bureau?

[Mickey Vandeverre]

ok, I'll try again.  your comment is bolded in quotation marks:

"Their needs to be an SL CREATOR/MERCHANT Institute program from someone like NCI and fully supported by LL to educate a resident that wants to be a SL value contributing creator merchant."

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my comment:

if part of that process involves analyzing whether or not a person has pride or if it involves analyzing whether or not a person adds "value".....and making a determination on that for review by others....supported by LL?

if part of the training and part of the badge qualifying process involves that, then I'm uncomfortable with the training and/or evaluation process for course completion badge, etc.

Again, personal opinion.

your assesment of the above:

utterly horrible idea?

I didn't say that.  My gut feels it, though. 

I don't think that "bitter" is reflected in my comments.  I think that is an attempt to bait or add drama.  But I'll be straight-up....that comment about my product and creativity and an implication as to whether or not I have pride, ruffles my feathers a tad.

your comment:

"Its no skin off your back.  It doesnt impact your business in any way.  Its not a Merchant Association with a potentially subjective minimum standards / criteria designation that you would be hurt by if you didnt have it."

It depends on how far someone wants to carry it.  When the original proposition was introduced, it was suggested that some concepts would be promoted.  If a "better" business bureau did not get a high five, who is to say that the same concepts would not be carried to a more acceptable organization with a more acceptable title.  Same concepts.  This is has been tossed about here before.  Sometimes, subtly.  I appreciate the boldness this time.  More concrete details would have been nice.  If you present a launch date, details should be in place.

I think that you could only speculate on what an impact would be. 

your comment:

"The only risk would be - IF YOU EVEN ARE WORRIED ABOUT THIS - that these properly educated / trained SL Creator/Merchants might capture more sales of which some at the cost of your business because of their new found skills.  But even this is a risk you can address by taking the course yourself or educating yourself via other more traditional means."

who will be educating?  has that question been answered?  I'm not comfortable with the thread and proposal leader educating on a few things, no.  Not comfortable at all.  Personal opinion, based on past conversations and observations.

your comment:

"Your postings seem to be blinded in this thread by some unknown personal reason at anything positive coming from this thread discussion.  Not 100% sure why although I could guess.  But you are converting every new thought on this thread into a threat / attack on some principle of yours."

I'm not sure if you can teach a principles class, can you?  Don't people over the age of 18 arrive with those?

I'm challenging.  Some pretty important points have not been addressed.  That's ok, I guess.  But if you position yourself as an organization leader, with a major proposal, ready to launch, you might want to be ready for a challenge.

The blue pill thing is cute   I will take it as a Funny.

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

There appears to be a post missing.

That's awkward.

Dang, removing a post totally throws off where my Anti-Campaign link lands.  Guess I'll have to rework that, but did promise to have Anti-campaign up by end of week, and it's was Friday.

[Toysoldier Thor]

Mickey, I will just respond on the parts I think is of value to respond...

 

1. NCI would be a great condidate to manage these Creator/Merchant courses.  To ease your apparent fears that someone will be evaluated to determine if they are or are not a "super" Merchant and placed into some elite merchant status....  the student merchants are ONLY taking the NCI courses for.... LEARNING!  They would be attending to learn how to be a merchant.  As such, the only potential certification given out is that the student COMPLETED THE COURSE.  Thats it.  Nothing more. No tests to see if they get over 90%.
2. As for your question on who would do the training.  Anne already told you.  Volunteers.  NCI teachers are volunteers.  For this series of courses, the Volunteers would likely come from US... the SL community of expert Merchants.  Maybe even you Mickey.  You could teach one of these courses.  You can teach the new merchants something.  And when they finish your specific course, you will award them with a "I completed another Merchant course". 

Honestly Mickey, have you never heard of the NCI?  But it really doesnt even have to be NCI.  The course could be established by LL themselves to promote the growth of new merchants into SL.  It only helps them.

Not a complex nor devious intended concept.  Its certified training for new inexperienced Merchants or those that want to learn more aspects of the Merchant role.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Yes, Toy, I've heard of the NCI.  I do believe that I took some classes there in the beginning.  It's a really cool place.  Classes are great.  The ones I took, if it was the NCI (could have been another organization, it was a while back) were great classes.

Don't they already have a pretty good roster of classes? 

I think that you keep missing the point I keep copying and pasting.  I don't see a need to do that again.  If you do not consider it of value, that's fine and dandy.

I do not care to be involved with a group of merchants who are spearheading some concepts that were introduced in this thread.  But thank you for the invitation

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Is that a synopsis of the original topic? 

That is all about your needs.

I don't see much there about protecting the customer, and very little mention of the customer, except for when you mentioned a Union.

A Union?  for real?  or was that a Funny?

[Ann Otoole]

Having courses at an education facility like NCI makes it voluntary. There is no "badge of honor". There is only the knowledge of errors to avoid. After all those who excel at customer service that deliver what is wanted rise to the top anyway and there is nothing that can stop them.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Answer is probably in my last post in the other thread. I don't care who controls what. The issue to me is about business conditions and someone, somewhere needs to make sure that gets addressed. Perhaps it's already coming down the pipe, I don't know.

If SL could be unionized (which it probably can't), I'd stand behind it because nothing else is working at the moment.

And I abhor unions.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Still not super clear, but I thought this proposition was to protect customers, which the organizer related to retention rates, suggesting that retention rates might be suffering from customers having a poor experience, or something like that.  Then tying that in with a way to identify elite merchants and slap a badge on their stores.  Close enough?

Do you ever read your customers profiles?  Do you know what their interests are?  what kind of clubs they belong to?  where their favorite places are located?

Majority of profiles I read indicate most are having major fun.  Yeah, once in a while you'll get the "Don't F with me" profile, but even those appear to find some satisfaction in finding a haven, a resting spot.

1) Customer-wise - - everything is working for me at the moment.  They've been super sweet about failed deliveries, once you explain it.  Granted, the original notecard saying they only got a LM and a notecard, is a wee bit terse, but all it requires is a conversation.  Not many dropped out of group, while I was on creative hiatus, still supporting.  In a fast world, that says a lot.  And I'm not the only one that can say that - many can.

2) Tool-wise, LL Policy-wise - - NO.  stuff doesn't work and stuff doesn't make sense.

We don't really need to worry about #2 if there ain't no #1

And I do not see a ton of mention about #1 unless it is disguised as a ploy to advance your business at the cost of others. 

I do see a ton of mention about how we as customers to LL are getting the short end of the stick.  Absence of communication, tools that don't work, stuff that doesn't make sense....

.....interesting.  Maybe I better go check my own house on that.

Didn't realize that until I read this thread on someone else wanting to manage my house.

Thanks.

#1 just carried me through a bunch of months of faulty #2.  I've not acknowledged it properly.  Shame on me.

If #1 ain't carrying you through, yeah, you might need a union or group to hold your hand, and yeah, you might need to start messing with others' houses. 

Very little mention of the customer in this thread, and that's why I'm not buying it.

 

 

 

 

[Tari Landar]

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Dartagan Shepherd wrote:

 

Answer and stance on that last would be nice,

so I don't have to argue with my peers and customers whether I belong here or not and whether or not I'm a shark for doing something that I enjoy for profit.

Rod announced better tools coming in 2012 to help us be more profitable. Still blindly assuming yes it's ok to be here on that level.

Those are the things I need help with.

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One part of your post stood out to me(I did read the whole thing, however, good stuff). I bolded it...

I don't consider ANY person as being unworthy to sell on MP, or inworld. I think that's a huge distinction some are making, and it's something I (and probably others) take issue with. Especially with regard to this topic at hand. I don't believe any one person or group of people, should get to decide who is worthy, and who is not. I'm fairly certain that over time those things handle themselves quite well. I guess it's a bit more difficult for me to explain this. I just think that anyone who wants a chance, needs to be given that chance. It doesn't matter how big, or small. It doesn't matter how much or how little they invest (this being time, money, materials, knowledge, experience or anything tangible or intangible we bring to the table). My opinion on the matter is all encompassing. I don't decide who is or is not worthy based on these things. In fact, I don't decide at all, because like I said, imo, everyone is worthy.

I don't think someone who has a bigger store, bigger wallet, more time, more space, more knowledge, more talent, more supplies,longer lifespan thus far in sl, etc... to be more worthy than someone who just walked in today, just learned how to use sl, just learned how to build or create, has little to no money,time,knowledge,space,talent, etc.. I think you get my point.

I'm going to do something again here that I don't like doing,but I'm going to say it to make a point, not pat myself on the back.(I hate ego stroking horns). I help new people all the time in sl. Some of them go on to create some pretty great things. I once bought something from one of these fine young people(and I say young because she actually is younger than me, lol). It didn't quite work right and she didn't quite have all the instructions needed. What she did have was confusing because the wording was off. I im'd her after buying it. I, thankfully, bought it with plenty of time to learn how to use it because I needed it for a very important project. Long story longer we got to talking and she politely asked me what I would do differently, and how to fix it.  Now, I've said it a million times but I am NOT a huge creator. My talents, though I thoroughly enjoy them and do find that I am quite good at some, they are still pretty limited. I am always learning. I wasn't too sure what I could do to help her, but I gave it a whirl anyway. We worked together to fix this product (which in turn worked awesome and ended up raising a crap ton of money for a charity, WOOT, but I also gained a lot more knowledge and experience too). But then we moved on to her other stuff. She only had a couple things on MP, and no in-world store at all. She has far surpassed my skills, by leaps and bounds. This was 2009 when I helped her. She has a really good business now, makes her entire sl and rl living with her products and really is just living the life. She's not a top merchant in that everyone knows her name/brand. But it's what she makes that matters the most. She actually is still lacking in the marketing area-not her strong suit and she'll be the first to say it. The point of this story is that ALL merchants, start somewhere. All merchants, imo, need help from time to time. All merchants need someone, anyone, to give them a chance. If such a BBB, group, or even a policy, was in place to eliminate(or attempt to) any person not deemed as "worthy" to be a merchant, then a crap ton of the merchants we see today, wouldn't be here. No merchant gets to the top on their own.  I strongly believe no merchant should start out alone either, or travel their journey alone. I'd rather see more focus put on HELPING people from day one. Give them more tools, more knowledge and they'll likely succeed. Give them a reason to feel inferior(yes I know, no one can *make another person feel this way, I get that, but there is am emotional side to things too) and they're not likely to stick around.

Less merchants in SL, is not the answer. Less merchants will also mean less customers for a lot of other merchants. Take me for example. I can sculpt very few things on my own. I simply don't have the knowledge or talent. In some cases my vision affects this terribly, though it's not an excuse it IS a hinderance for me when dealing with modeling. Heck I've been making textures and various graphic designs since 1997, and it takes me much longer to make things than it should-because of the lack of vision, and they're primarily flat with added depth(that I can't even usually see, and often need help guaging if it's right or not). So I stick to buying my maps, sculpts and other supplies from other merchants. Some of them much lesser known than others. It may not seem like much but even my measly little purchases are helping contribute to the merchant community. I'm helping as much as any other person is, to keep the community alive. I'm someone(out of a rather large group) who gives sculpty creators a reason to do what they do. . So where would sculpty creators, texture makers and others who make things for other builders be, without us? Especially the lesser known, smaller, even hobbiest merchants. I'll tell ya, nowhere. Even the biggest names in the creation world, started somewhere. They started with small things, and then got bigger. They started out as imperfect as everyone else. We ALL start out that way. In fact, we all stay that way, as none of us are perfect. We ALL can grow, get better at what we do, and ought to be encouraging others to do the same......without making them feel like crap.(well giving them cause to).

No person should feel inferior just because they're not top dog in the class. I 100% support anything that actually helps other merchants, or potential ones, so long as it doesn't come across as "we feel you're not worthy", from the word go. There is a much better way to approach things and I strongly believe those should be explored. I don't think we need to explore the reasons as to why some feel that some folks are less worthy as merchants, than others. That's really not going to help any of the problems we see. I know there are classes, tutorials, groups even, to help new builders. I love that they exist. I'd love to see more of them. Sometimes I feel awkward when I help others, because not all my skills are super fabtabulous. But I still do it, because I do enjoy it, and I'm quite certain that even if I can only offer a little help, it's a good thing. I have to be honest when I say that it makes me feel good, proud even, when I AM able to help another merchant. Especially if that merchant is having issues, feeling like a small fry who's never going to make it to the dinner plate, on their own, and there's no one else around to help. Yeah, that's a bit selfish of me, arrogant even a little bit, but it's just how I feel. I'd rather help a little then not help at all. I'd rather offer critiques that are open and honest, but not rude. I'd rather help someone do better, not kick them down because I don't think they're worthy.

Bottom line, you want the merchant community to get better, you want to see less customer complaints and issues(though this can never be fully remedied, that's just life), then work at helping other creators BE better....without coming across as though you believe they aren't worthy of the tag "merchant"....or that you, are somehow better than they are. That's just a really bad approach, imo.

/end rant...and I apologize for the TL;DR and the thoughts all jumbled to one.

[Dartagan Shepherd]

Thank you very much for that bit of wisdom. I guess when you see a set of problems and you're looking for solutions (in the context of this thread, discussing a need for some form of representative body) and don't feel empowered enough to help make those changes it comes to this.

If, however, that becomes a form of exclusion and it makes people feel bad or insecure, that needs to be taken into account, especially with something like SL, where part of the dream is to start from nothing and evolve. In that regard SL is amazing.

Taking a lot more away from this. Ouch.

Never my intention to remove the opportunity from zero to business, or zero to fulfilled dreams, or whatever anyones journey in SL happens to be.

I think everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I can model and code, but according to my mate I can't texture or make things look good to save my life. I don't agree with her that my world consists of mustard yellow, those happen to be manly earth tones, but that's another story. Would hate to have anyone exclude me because of it or make me feel inferior.

Liked the suggestions in this thread that a representative body is best for helping others.

 

[Jenelle Levenque]

You might consider an alternative to BBB more along the lines of Angie's List. Only the customer can add a company to the list. Just a thought.

[Darrius Gothly]

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Jenelle Levenque wrote:

You might consider an alternative to BBB more along the lines of Angie's List. Only the customer can add a company to the list. Just a thought.

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I see the Angie's List commercials on TV a lot, and this thought has crossed my mind on numerous occasions as well. I'm not sure how well it would work given the ability of people to create anonymous identities instantly. Perhaps some sort of membership requirement, with qualified members being the only ones able to post a review.

To qualify and enable posting, a member would have to have PIOF (payment info on file) or in some similar fashion verify they are a real person and not an empty shell of an Avatar that was created purely for the purposes of posting a negative review. As an outside, third-party business unrelated in any sense to Linden Lab, the "Avis List" site might even establish their own qualification tests, maybe even using the entry of Credit Card or payment details as part of their registration process.

Requiring the new member to pay a nominal US$1 membership fee would accomplish this goal without imposing insurmountable hurdles on new members. But, as LL has found out durng the past year, it can be very difficult to arrange a payment service that allows anyone from anywhere around the world to pay. Using PayPal and requiring "Verified Accounts" would go a long way toward achieving that goal. but not everyone has access to PayPal.

At any rate, I believe it can be done like this, and I'm sure with a little expertise and erroft it can be done successfully.

(mark down one "Yes" vote from me.)

[Pamela Galli]

I can guarantee that all the businesses with borked listings would wind up on some list of terrible merchants, because of what the marketplace has done to their listings. 

[Darrius Gothly]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

I can guarantee that all the businesses with borked listings would wind up on some list of terrible merchants, because of what the marketplace has done to their listings. 

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With the "Angie's List" style of site, the overall rating is shown at the same time as the reviews. The business also has the ability to post comments in reply as well. Of course it would also have to include notifying the Merchant anytime someone posts a review or comment.

The reviewers name is included with each review. It would be super easy to build an "Average Ratings Given" number for each Reviewer that shows, on average, what type of reviews and grades they routinely post. If someone is only givng F's then you can tell right away they're just an habitual complainer.

Most important of all though, people would have to pay US$1 to sign up on the site and leave a scathing review about the borked listing. Most folks would stop right there and refuse to pay the buck. Paying a nominal enrollment fee is a big disincentive to posting in the heat of the moment; people will kvetch if it's free, but make them pay to kvetch and they stop cold.

The site should also have a "Review Category" that requires people to select which of the Merchant's services they did not like. For example: Not as advertised, Non-Delivery, etc.

And besides, by the time someone creates and releases a site like the "Avis List" idea, the borked listings will be LONG gone.

[Pamela Galli]

Now, there wouldn't be any way to game this, would there?  :-)

[Darrius Gothly]

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Pamela Galli wrote:

Now, there wouldn't be any way to game this, would there?  :-)

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There's always a way to game everything. The question is, would it be worth it?

When you look over an Angie's List entry for a company and you spot 2 or 3 stellar reports and either nothing else written or a number of "meh" entries as well, you can pretty much figure out that the glowing reports are in some fashion gamed. But combatting people that pump their reputation up are not nearly as much trouble as those that would attack others for no valid reason or because they are competitors. The latter issue is easily countered by the targeted Merchant posting a reply (or follow-up report). Those that get pissy and post a scathing review because of delivery issues .. they won't post once they realize its gonna cost them to complain. And then the Merchant can always investigate and follow up on the site.

If enough Merchants say "If you like our service, our products or just the neat clothes we wear, please add your comments to our Avis List reviews." Shoot, you could even do a Referral Program of sorts, getting people to send new members in exchange for a small commission (like maybe $0.05). Sign up 20 people and you make back your registration fee.

All review type services are gonna have some "play" on them at one time or another, but they are very beneficial to help stamp out the true slackers in the Merchant population .. and very much beneficial to those of us that bust our tails trying to do the very best possible.

[fayesuraro]

Hi! So, what happened to the business bureau for SL? Is it a success? Well, it is getting extremely difficult to know who customers can trust anymore. The Better Business Bureau has, for the last century, been held up as the one bastion of integrity customers can turn to for the real scoop on businesses. Now, however, the Southern California chapter has been stripped of its BBB status for its supposed "pay to play" scheme, offering greater rankings for paid members.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Did you really just necro post a year old thread?

[Troll Rumble]

I just wonder what happen with idea of BBB in the SLIFE?

[Darrius Gothly]

My recollection is that like so many other Internet-based "Community Self-Policing" efforts, it eventually devolved into a power grab, an abuse of the power grabbed, several multi-page rants from various POV's ... and a final catastrophic explosion similar to the stuff you see on Science TV. ("The Universe" or "Mythbusters" .. take your pick.)