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Time for a SL Better Business Bureau?


Chelsea Malibu
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The tie-in, is in that Market Place host Merchants.

A single icon or logo can communicate meaning. The reading requirements are minimal.

Good law is good order.

Rules are power-trips. Rules are obstacles placed in the path of individuals who relentlessly quest for an isolated advantage.

Earth has humans who are very successful, some individuals have an inner drive to achieve and excel. Their courage and vigilant pursuit of their goals have contributed greatly to the World as it is today, without them, we would be a lesser people.

 If 10 people represented all the people on the Planet:

 

  • Three people are children
  • Three people are old
  • Three people can work
  • One person is sick

 

Who's job is it to care for the young, the old and the sick?

How many Americans actually Vote? Does the majority really create the rules?

Without having "been there done that" in SL; how long might it take to bring a person who has never heard of SL or LL "up to speed" on the events in SL? How much would they have to "know" to be able to make and informed decision?

My car has no brakes. The Mechanic confirmed that the "car has no brakes", but I'm going to keep driving it until I can get a 2nd opinion from another Mechanic. Maybe if I search long enough, I can find a mechanic who will tell me what I want to hear. "everything's good"

 

 

 

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"The tie-in, is in that Market Place host Merchants.

A single icon or logo can communicate meaning. The reading requirements are minimal."

 

How convenient.  No wonder Chelsea did not answer that question :)

Suspected that.  I bet it would be a really huge honking badge too, wouldn't it?

And I bet some kind of deal would be cut with LL to add search significance to that badge, too, right?

 

"Good law is good order."

 

sweet.

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Knowl Paine wrote:

Of course I would prefer to deal directly with the Merchant, but as many Merchants have listed in their Profiles, "
I have a rl, so I cannot be in SL everyday
". It sure would be nice if that Merchant had an associate who may be able to help me (the customer).

A BBB would imply that Merchants who participate do have something additional to offer Customers, you are absolutely correct. Maybe, this is why some Residents dislike the idea.

You should consider joining the Team, we could use someone who hates the idea. Your presence would keep the system fair and balanced. :matte-motes-grin:

A BBB would most certainly NOT imply that at all. We'd like to think a seal of approval implies that, but that's not the case/ A seal of approval would most likely simply imply "best of..." type deal, like we already see. Because it would be mere mortals like yourself, and myself(not specifically me, lol but *like me) making the decision as to who gets added and who doesn't.  I'd love to know how many merchants you run into on a daily basis that actually have this in their profile, though, and exactly how you're finding them all. I find the exact opposite to be the case in that most merchants (not all, especially folks who might not be "as serious" as it were) have the EXACT method(s) they want you to utilize to contact them. Does that mean they can't also include "I have a rl too, please be patient while awaiting assistance"-or some form of it? No. In fact, I'd prefer to know those sorts of things to be honest. That's the reason I mention the fact that I often go afk and may not be available in my profile...it prevents nasty IMs, nasty NCs, some of the impatience some folks have and such things. Would seem to me if you are running into stuff like that in a merchant profile and it sets you off, you'd simply not do business with them. Why would you need some other person's seal of approval for that merchant to make this decision?

Exactly what sort of recourse do you honestly think some group of average, everyday, ordinary residents can give you that LL doesn't already? They can't "help" you should there be a problem, anymore than LL already can. They'd have absolutely NO business getting involved in another merchant's dealings either-that simply screams drama..."sir or madam, we have a buyer here who has an issue and has come to us with said issue...blah blah", yeah that's not going to go over well, lol.. Sure it *might*(and I use that term very loosely) be nice if they could, but they can't. But to be frank, I'm not so sure I'd trust a group of people to decide the fate of others, or "assist" with issues, either, and be able to do so professionally. I think that's expecting a bit much of people anyway, bit too much responsibility put on other residents. I kinda like the fact that LL doesn't really allow this sort of this thus far, or at least doesn't support it. I can imagine the issues it would cause. I mean look at all the "police" type forces we've already got out there. Sure some have the best intentions(I think), but they still cause even more issues than they solve.

What is so radically different about a BBB than what we've got, what we've seen and such, so far? What would really set this apart? What sort of "power" as it were, do you want to hand over to these folks that would really make them so much more helpful and useful than what we've got. I think those(like many) are pretty important questions to answer, if you're all for such an idea. You've got to have a reason for being all for it. Aside from the fact that it sounds good(because it sounds good to a lot of people, but that doesn't mean it *is* good,  lots of things sound good, lol). But if simple answers to some of the simpler questions can't be found, or given, how are people going to answer the more tough ones?

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I think these "BBB" efforts would be much more effective were the proponents of such a doomed to fail organization to go to NCI and create some classes on best practices and ethics for merchants in Secondlife. Catch the new merchants before they develop bad habits.

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"The tie-in, is in that Market Place host Merchants.

A single icon or logo can communicate meaning. The reading requirements are minimal."

How convenient.  No wonder Chelsea did not answer that question
:)

Suspected that.  I bet it would be a really huge honking badge too, wouldn't it?

And I bet some kind of deal would be cut with LL to add search significance to that badge, too, right?

"Good law is good order."

 sweet.

 

I've not answered your questions because I find nearly all of your debate is targeted on me and not the idea.  After seeing what you create/sell I can see why. 

What you are attempting to do with this thread is no more creative than your products.  I take pride in my support since I also take pride in what I create.  I do it to provide the best, not just provide.  I am nor every will be satisfied with "just OK".

Knowl, what you said is very prophetic and something everyone should take to heart. Well said.

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Ann Otoole wrote:

I think these "BBB" efforts would be much more effective were the proponents of such a doomed to fail organization to go to NCI and create some classes on best practices and ethics for merchants in Secondlife. Catch the new merchants before they develop bad habits.

WoW!! This is why we have the forums!  Great Idea Ann.  Mentor training for new creators and merchants.  You see, unlike the accusations of Mikey, this is not about control or me, it is about improving the SL user experience and maintaining consumer trust.  What a great way to start.

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"I've not answered your questions because I find nearly all of your debate is targeted on me and not the idea. 

After seeing what you create/sell I can see why. " 
 
Interesting.
 
I think that perhaps you just made one of my points very clear.  Thank you.
 
You know, for a brief moment yesterday, I was considering apologizing for using such a strong phrase as "No way in hell".....it was gut reaction, probably should have toned it down a bit.
 
But No way in Hell will I watch without an opinion or with a passive opinion when I see that. 
 
That's why I'm in your thread.
 
For the duration.
 
Will you be inspecting the other merchant's stuff before handing out that seal of approval?
 
 
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Alrighty then, let's recap.

A proposed Bureau would like to promote to the general second life public, as well as the entire world population (via web site).... that their members give "better" customer service.

It will spearheaded by "founders" made up of other merchants.

A big honking banner or ad would be a nice perk on marketplace or front entry.

Suggestions for aspects to be monitored by said group included permission settings, packaging, store display, and more.

Said group will be evaluating the quality of your products and making judgment on whether it is worthy or not.

==================================

 

Where do we stand on pricing?

Where do we stand on sales volume?

Where do we stand on customer opinions?

You remember......The Customer.

 

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Oddly Mickey, I don't care about an apology however, I do care about your business as I do everyone's business.  I find your personal attacks on me, since you disagree with my idea, to be rather disconcerting but that is neither her nor there. 

To a new resident, they do not see that we each contribute to the in world commerce as they don't understand how this works. To them it's just Second Life.

Everything everyone does, reflect the brand impression new users get which are most of the users.  Their experience, regardless of where, is perceived as SL and not just one place or one person.  It will and always will create an overall brand impression of SL.  As such, the merchant by the end user experience are one not many.  Over time, they learn to differentiate merchants but by the time they do, if they do, may be too late.  When I see the volume of new users coming into SL with little growth in concurrencies,  I can only ask, where are they going and why are they not staying.

If we are responsible for our businesses in this community then are we not too responsible for that community? Do we all not try to help other residents as much as possible? Clearly that answer is yes as it is how we all want to be treated.

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" I do care about your business as I do everyone's business"

================================================

Yes, that's clear.

Again....

Where does your plan stand on pricing?

In your attempt to protect the community, how shall you and your "founders" evaluate pricing?

Can you expand on this....

"differentiate merchants"

What is your plan to help the community with that aspect?  What variables will be included?

 

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Ann Otoole wrote:

I think these "BBB" efforts would be much more effective were the proponents of such a doomed to fail organization to go to NCI and create some classes on best practices and ethics for merchants in Secondlife. Catch the new merchants before they develop bad habits.

OK Anne,  now that is a direction for any formal / organized Merchant community that I would 100% support / endorse.  A certified SL Merchant Course where any SL resident can enroll and complete that would provide answers to all the questions like:

 

  • How created products are sold on SL (the basics)
  • Product creation & packaging
  • Product creation - legal, IP, copyrights, licensing, etc.  (what should a new merchant know about this)
  • The 4 P's for an SL world  (what is the same and different between SL and RL)
  • Distribution (what and how on distributing product: inworld, MP, other worlds, web, etc.)
  • MP store/listing setup & management
  • Inworld Store setup best practices
  • Customer Service Best Practices
  • Advertising & Marketing avenues - how do I get my company and products known
  • Financial for an SL Merchant - tracking sales, costs, reporting, how to convert $L to $US, taxes, etc.
  • Merchant Support - where can a merchant get support? communities? industry groups? What to follow?

I could go on and on but there is an entire NCI series of classes that could be taught and maybe the Merchant that goes through it all could get a "Certified Trained SL Merchant" disignation when completed.  Its shows to anyone that cares - maybe the occassional customer even  - that if nothing else this Merchant took the time and effort to understand all aspects of being an SL Merchant.  IT doesnt certify that the Merchant is some elite class of Merchant or meets some minimum level of quality or that he/she is even reputable.  But if he/she took the time to go through all the courses - one could assume he/she was commited enough to want to be a responsible Merchant.

 

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If you're not super clear on what I'm talking about on pricing...here's an example:

For the cost of a few of your pillows, I can deliver a customer an entire room setting.

How will that be addressed?

You've covered unboxing, permissions, store set-up, packaging, a few other things, and I do not see a mention on pricing.

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" I am nor every will be satisfied with "just OK"."

Are you still talking about customer service here?  or have you ventured into other aspects?

Do you realize that some people visit the virtual world each day, in order to be "just OK" for an hour or two?  Without pressure?  from an employer?  from a corporation?  from a co-worker? 

Do you realize that their joy is in an aspect or concept that might be different from your own?

I asked a while back who decides what is "stupid?"

Who decides what is "OK?

a Bureau?

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Mickey, demon merchant of SL, you are not gonna get your little badge from the Merit Merchants I'm afraid..lol.
Maybe the people who hate judgemental groups can form their own group, we could be the Misfit Merchants, and instead of a pretty brownie badge we would get little horns.

Seriously, this idea of a BBB group with a select group of merchants as judge and jury is not a good one, though I do see Chelsea's intention was not to harm - however these types of groups do end up being abusive, and would be especially so in SL where the community is smaller and we all compete for the same customers.
People simply cannot be objective most of the time - even those who have training in objectivity.
I like the ideas others have proposed - an educational group - but even this could end up being prejudicial.

My experience with groups trying to set standards has not been good -  sometime back this one guy formed a group to protect consumers against 'the abusive merchants'.  He approached me in a very odd way - after purchasing a fence he then tried to get me to refund part of the purchase, saying he didn't feel it should cost that much. When I refused he of course vowed to tell everyone not to buy from me, and then a customer notified me that he was running around my store telling customers not to purchase anything because they wouldn't get the item.

In another case a customer turned merchant went to the ends of SL telling everyone I did a custom job for her but would then not give her the prims (we had agreed initially that I would deed the prims to her group, and I did that, but she wanted them in her name).  If you've ever done complex landscapes it can be a nightmare to sell each little buried water and rock prim, some phantom and some not, linked in various ways, so I always group-scan and deed them over and plan my prices accordingly). To this day I have people coming up to me telling me how this woman told them how BAD I was.

And yet another case - I booted some renters from my land because they would not stop running up to kneeling kajiras in my park spewing the worst hate I've ever heard. These people actually formed a group named 'Ban Bliss' advocating that people should not buy from me.

Many of my customers end up becoming merchants and trying to compete against me, hence they have great motive for trashing me. Because of this dynamic in SL where customers become merchants this would make a judge and jury group even more dangerous. When you complicate matters even further with the fact that some of us have been landlords the potential for abuse is even worse. These types would invariably end up in a type of BBB group and try to wield their drama.


I think we need a BCB (Better Customer Bureau).

No 1.  You must read instructions.
No 2.  Do not contact me with the word 'Hey'
No 3.  Place all your text in one paragraph instead of capping my messages with
       "I just"
       "wondered about your"
       "blue rug"
       "and the green tree"
No 4.  After I complete your landscape and you find out how hard it is to duplicate you cannot run around telling everyone how sh*tty I am.

However, given all this I have to say that most of my customers have been great and don't cause such drama. However we don't need to form a group that divides merchants and gives jealous merchants a voice. It's sad but this small percentage of disturbed merchants/customers cause most of the problems in SL, and these types of problems are far worse than a few customers who have bad experiences with merchants. I think most merchants provide good customer service, and if they don't they aren't usually around for long.

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Yeah Right Toy!  I love this idea.  And your mention of the 4 p's I assume you mean the Power, Profit, Prestige, Pleasure sales method?

How to use MP, how SEO, staffing, taxes..There is so much that could be done here.

And the mention of Merchant support is good to. An advanced mentor program for merchants could also work much like the Small Business Association Mentor programs work in RL.  You have someone in your area of business that you can call on if you have questions. 

 It could also be very motivating since as we know, starting off as a content creator/merchant can be somewhat isolating.  I was lucky in that I had Stroker to mentor and motivate me.  I would not be here today if not for him.

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Chelsea Malibu wrote:

Yeah Right Toy!  I love this idea.  And your mention of the 4 p's I assume you mean the Power, Profit, Prestige, Pleasure sales method?

How to use MP, how SEO, staffing, taxes..There is so much that could be done here.

And the mention of Merchant support is good to. An advanced mentor program for merchants could also work much like the Small Business Association Mentor programs work in RL.  You have someone in your area of business that you can call on if you have questions. 

 It could also be very motivating since as we know, starting off as a content creator/merchant can be somewhat isolating.  I was lucky in that I had Stroker to mentor and motivate me.  I would not be here today if not for him.

All us Merchants durnig the evolution of Customer -> Creator -> Merchant can easily recall when they were both the Student and the Mentor. 

In the early stages many of us are purely the student and without an NCI to formally teach us how to be a Creator/Merchant in SL, most of us learned by word of mouth and SL friends that were further along the evolution and joining forums and by networking.

In the later stages we all realize we have matured when we are asked more and more by the following generation of Creator/Merchants for advice.

I can look back and remember several fellow creator / merchants (past and present) that were invaluable in fundamentally moving my evolution forward.  There were many.  And now I consider it an honor whenever I am asked by them for advice.

I can also recall countless times I have helped many merchants get started on the very basics of building to sell, and placing their first item on MP, and how to rent a store, and how to deal with an angry customer, and how to set pricing, and opinions on moving content to other worlds than SL, etc.etc.etc.  Some of these merchants are now even bigger than me - :) - one clothing designer as an example.

But... what I can tell you is that other than obscure WIKIs and forums from LL, the one mentor I really can say was of very little value to the current success of my SL business....  LINDEN LAB. 

New creators and Merchant wanna-bees should not have to hunt out SL friends and follow informal channels to get themselves started as a merchant.  Their needs to be an SL CREATOR/MERCHANT Institute program from someone like NCI and fully supported by LL to educate a resident that wants to be a SL value contributing creator merchant.

 

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"Their needs to be an SL CREATOR/MERCHANT Institute program from someone like NCI and fully supported by LL to educate a resident that wants to be a SL value contributing creator merchant."

   

if part of that process involves analyzing whether or not a person has pride or if it involves analyzing whether or not a person adds "value".....and making a determination on that for review by others....supported by LL?

No way.

Wrong.

And sad.

Surprised in your comment to a person in another thread, concerning that topic.

"Their" should be "There" - - I think that might be cause for dismissal from said group.

eta to verify:  

"7.       Spell-check your note cards. You may be a brilliant scripter but your note card probably makes you look like an idiot. If you can’t write in the language intended, hire someone or at least find someone who can check your spelling."

 evidently not necessarily dismissal.  only an "idiot."

 

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Actually just teaching newcomers what pitfalls to avoid is a huge step forward. Like, for instance, how to manage inventory before it climbs over the 2K wall never to return.

 

Voluntary courses made by volunteers that teach people that volunteer their time to learn how to be more successful harms whom exactly?

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here is my comment on that, Ann.....

 "if part of that process involves analyzing whether or not a person has pride or if it involves analyzing whether or not a person adds "value".....and making a determination on that for review by others....supported by LL?"

No Way.

of course, as you know Ann, that is merely personal opinion.  I doubt that anything said here will sway the organizer from proceeding with some sort of plan.  There is certainly a road to "success" written all over some of the aspects.

 

 

 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

"Their needs to be an SL CREATOR/MERCHANT Institute program from someone like NCI and fully supported by LL to educate a resident that wants to be a SL value contributing creator merchant."

   

if part of that process involves analyzing whether or not a person has pride or if it involves analyzing whether or not a person adds "value".....and making a determination on that for review by others....supported by LL?

No way.

Wrong.

And sad.

Surprised in your comment to a person in another thread, concerning that topic.

"Their" should be "There" - - I think that might be cause for dismissal from said group.

 

 

Mickey, Your posting thoughts totally lost me as to relevance to what I was saying.

So since your posting takes issue with what I posted (even though I am not sure how it ties together), I am to understand that you think that the idea of a Creator/Merchant Education program and possibly the "Certified NCI Trained Merchant" designation is an utterly horrible idea?

Even if you dont use the program or ever take one class of training from this proposed series of Merchant Training (since you obviously already are an up and running merchant of SL), why do you seem to be so bitter that this education course be developed and setup in SL for the next generation Creator / Merchants or even current merchants that wish to better their skills on becoming a better more effective merchant?

Its no skin off your back.  It doesnt impact your business in any way.  Its not a Merchant Association with a potentially subjective minimum standards / criteria designation that you would be hurt by if you didnt have it.

The only risk would be - IF YOU EVEN ARE WORRIED ABOUT THIS - that these properly educated / trained SL Creator/Merchants might capture more sales of which some at the cost of your business because of their new found skills.  But even this is a risk you can address by taking the course yourself or educating yourself via other more traditional means.

 

Your postings seem to be blinded in this thread by some unknown personal reason at anything positive coming from this thread discussion.  Not 100% sure why although I could guess.  But you are converting every new thought on this thread into a threat / attack on some principle of yours.

/ME hands Mickey the Blue Pill.... and a shot of whiskey as a chaser.  ;)

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Here are things I'd like an entity to address.

If I'm going to fully engage in the economy as a merchant these are my costs and conditions.

Fee to buy L$ (Insurance against elbow injuries)

Fee to sell L$ (Insurance on the other elbow)

$200 for a mainland sim, $300 for island, etc. (As stated, comparable with car and house payments for land that can be walked across in 60 seconds or less, shared on a machine with over a half dozen other 60 second land masses, with too restricting limits on prims/code/etc.)

L$30/week to advertise my land which may or may not show up where expect.

Classified ads. (Dump as much as you wish here, the more the better to outbid everyone else for an ad with no extra features than the person I'm outbidding. Great fun, it's only tokens).

Marketplace advertising.

5% of Marketplace fees.

L$10 to texture each face of every object that needs it.

Mesh (moved away from calculations that make it easy on users (Fast, Easy and Fun nowhere to be found) to a floating system. Costs are undetermined without extra time investment. Obfuscated to put the burden of each triangle and its cost to the world on me, and so I understand why I'm now paying extra to upload "more efficient" builds.).

In the mesh process, I'm directly or indirectly now also paying for scripts, and the size of an object. Expect land impact to make its way into all prim calculations in the future, making all building cost more either in $L or in land costs if I want to build big and script heavy for the $300/month in resources I'm already paying for. It's $300/month, if I want to tap all of that machines resources and bog my sim down with large and heavily scripted items, that's what I'm already paying for, why am I paying twice on hardware resources?

If I become successful, I have to apply with LL to be able to cash over a certain amount out, at their discretion they may stall or refuse to give me money that I earned because it's over the limit. This is incremental, so each time you jump to a higher successful stage as a merchant, you must jump through hoops and sacrifice a small goat that you're actually able to get that money out from LL.

Global conditions are such that money churns from one user to the next to the next so that each of them are probably banged one fee or another, thereby reducing my potential profits futher. Those customers who are merchants are also under the same substantial operating costs as myself, so we're feeding on each other, which is great, but under operating costs that are designed to keep both our profits to a minimum the more we churn on each other.

Only here do I have to compete with free in a way that I don't in RL. I don't mind free, I don't mind people who don't want to pay anything or who just want to have fun. I'm not evil, I was led to believe that being a full time merchant in SL is part of my world, my imagination and that a full time income is a success story and a testament to the ability of this virtual world to improve lives and opportunity. Merchant is however what drew me to SL, new business opportunity in a brave new world where costs are less than RL.

A dictionary however tells me that a merchant is someone who sells something for a price and potentially a profit. I'm sorry, I cannot get it out of my head that a dictionary is wrong in this context because it's a "virtual" world.

Because of free, the overall value of goods drops each year. Perhaps L$6,000 was too much for an avatar shape in years past, but it is still no excuse for something that takes considerable time and skill to produce, devaluing year after year. There could be checks and balances to maintain a minimal value and market conditions without hurting the precious right to or existance of freebies, but there are none. Even cheap imports in the real world are eventually taxed so that they aren't as harmful to domestic business. Generally too little, too late, but an acknowledgement of that problem nonetheless.

Business tools are not up the the task or volume of goods to smoothly move those from creation, to marketing, to consumer, to the extent that in most cases I cannot know whether an issue was my fault, the customers, or the providers.

I'm now being asked to donate a fee of over $5,000 USD to an ex employee to provide a feature that a company with millions in profits will not provide. In RL, it would be an embarassment to my local business community to do this. This is known as sheep-funding. It may be great for sheep, it's not great for grown-ups. It increases costs further and takes away $5,000 of potential profit (or entertainment dollars) from my world.

There are other fees that involve a hundred bucks or so, to change the name of my land in a database, or its coordinates, etc.

Could go on and on, but generally this is not the bill of goods that I feel I was sold on, or led to believe. I'm happy that it is for some people, and that's great, SL is many things to many people. So I should pick up my toys and go home, or expect LL to start acting in both of our interests on this business thing. I succeed or stand on my own.

Business environment and tools are crude or partially non functioning (down to communications where group chat is hit or miss). Costs that are rediculously high to fully engage in a merchant economy, no restrictions on things that protect stability in business.

Someone at LL needs to let me know that business beyond a certain level is not really wanted here, and that I shouldn't take it at all seriously. Is this world just for costly fun if I engage in the economy at full tilt? I would love to know. I love the business that I can do here as a feel good venture as opposed to a RL business where I could make much, much more but enjoy myself less. And I still believe in a future where "work" is right up there with "play" in a virtual world. That would be a "second" life.

But please do enlighten me as to whether I belong here or not as well as anyone else, LL.

But if I do belong here, perhaps a BBB isn't the right function, what I need is an *intentionally bleeped* union and better legislation to protect myself and my customers, or for them to stop playing around and treat this like a real business environment with reasonable operating costs. Or both.

Because what you're giving me just isn't very realistic to work with and is just as expensive, if not more to be fully engaged in the economy here than RL at this level of cost vs. income. And it's far more time consuming. This at the expense of other important things in RL.

I've got a lawnmower in my shed whispering to me that it can turn into a landscaping venture with equipment and employees in a year on a 40 hour week, and it's proven to me that it can with 20% less operating costs relatively speaking.

Taking advantage of tier, misc. costs and advertising for what the going rates are will run me roughtly $7,500 USD a year. I need to be provided an environment that an average merchant doing everything right, with a decent product can gross $15,000 USD a year. Without saying as much, LL allowing me to be a merchant is basically telling me that this is possible and not uncommon.

Lonely Merchant seeks business partner. Must be compassionate, trustworthy, stable, enjoy long walks on flat green and not charge alimony "before" the divorce. Is that you, LL?

Answer and stance on that last would be nice, so I don't have to argue with my peers and customers whether I belong here or not and whether or not I'm a shark for doing something that I enjoy for profit. Rod announced better tools coming in 2012 to help us be more profitable. Still blindly assuming yes it's ok to be here on that level.

Those are the things I need help with.

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