PBR in Second Life

[Sorciaa]

17 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I was sent the demo of that outfit and it does look exactly as shown in her pictures.  I do use an appropriate EEP which is basically neutral lighting.  This outfit does PBR correctly as opposed to the sequin dress I showed awhile back.  

What EEP do you use? I have been grabbing any I can and most still don't look right.

[Princess Evergarden]

45 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Yes. The primary goal of creating and selling would be to make a profit. But some of the ideas being pushed at us are misleading or are lies by omission. Let's say PBR does makes it so creators can make more optimized items quicker that in theory should be more easy to render in-world, cause less lag, and be overall beneficial to everybody. Well, it doesn't matter how well these items are created when some of us are experiencing temperature hikes on our systems. There are also myths about meeting imaginary industry standards or making SL relevant igen or how we need PBR to attract new users. The problem I have with these ideas, other then the fact that I don't think they hold much weight, is that these are the justifications some ppl are making for why we need to adopt PBR and that many of the ppl who claim these ideas do hold weight stand to make a large profit off a transition that has been extremely detrimental for the low-end user.

I completely agree with what your saying, though.

I think not including fallback materials is sometimes used as a tactic to try to force us to adopt PBR. I also think that it is really irresponsible considering that PBR is still in the alpha/beta stages of development and not yet fully stable. When creators raise concerns about fallback textures causing lag, I believe they are trying to pull the wool over our eyes and play us for fools. Which item will require more VRAM? A PBR item with a 1024x1024 PBR texture and a 1024x1024 fallback texture or a PBR item with a 2k PBR texture and no fallback texture. And don't even get me started on the whole thing where some ppl want to make all the terrain in SL PBR with absolutely zero fallback textures. Also there no reason why an item that comes with a texture changing HUD can't contain both PBR and none PBR textures as a way to avoid unnecessary texture lag. However, creator can and should do what they want. But I think the very large push from them for everybody to adopt PBR mostly serves them and hurts us.

Granted, all of this is just my opinion.

I've already debunked this. You should stop blaming creators and direct this at LL. We did not mess up PBR. We did as we were instructed to do and made PBR items. I did not mess up Firestorm or LL viewer. Neither did any creator. At the end of the day, this is the bottom line is that LL has said PBR is here to stay. Give them time to sort it out and try Alchemy. There are other viewers. I have no issues on Alchemy whatsoever.  Were you resistant to mesh and rigged mesh? SL goes through this stuff every time there is a change. PBR is also not in the Alpha/Beta stages. It's live in the LL official viewer, that means it is out of testing. Black Dragon and Alchemy have had PBR for months. For the record, you can stay in your old Firestorm viewer forever, they left that up you know? If you want to stay in the Legacy/Blinn Phong days you can. 

No one here is trying to pull wool over your eyes, you are expecting creators to do double the work for YOUR convenience. That's not fair to creators. Some are still doing those fallback textures but they are charging extra for them and rightfully so. Much more work goes into making Blinn Phong textures because you have to make sure you paint/bake in light sources. It's easy for you to sit and say these things if you aren't doing the job. That's like expecting a second cheeseburger for free, not going to happen. Creators had to learn how to do their workflow all over again with PBR - do you think they were eager for the change? No, most were not until they actually got into experimenting and seeing what could be done and how much fun it was. There are still designers who haven't even started a PBR workflow yet, you are welcome to support them too. Again, you did not understand what they were saying, they said with 2048 textures they can put more in the UV which actually ends up requiring LESS textures to render an item. Therefore what might be 4 1024 textures before can now be done in 2 textures. Requiring you to render less textures overall. Not to mention creators can reuse maps if they are the same on the object. The only one that *has* to change is color. Therefore it could end up causing less textures having to be rendered overall. 

PBR vs Blinn Phong is considered net neutral by the gaming industry. MOST modern games use PBR. The minimal jump in performance is outweighed by the far superior quality. Do you play games other than Second Life? Then you are using PBR.  Please stop spreading misinformation and target the proper place; I'm sorry the LL viewer or Firestorm is causing your system temperature hikes. Try other viewers, try messing with your settings. Give LL time to make adjustments to make PBR fun for everyone. Again, at the end of the day, they said PBR is here to stay. This is their world and we have to abide by their decisions. 

[WeFlossDaily]

Deleted.

Edited September 14 by WeFlossDaily

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

14 minutes ago, Dragon Mommy said:

You don't need to reply to every thread about PBR to keep trying to put creators down.

When you choose to construct your entire identity upon a single issue you have little choice but to try and steer every topic towards it, otherwise you might cease to exist.  Or, to paraphrase Descartes, "I complain, therefore I am!".

Edited September 14 by Fluffy Sharkfin

[Cristiano Midnight]

2 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

There is nothing inherently unethical about having a different opinion then you.

It is one thing to have a different opinion. It is another to ascribe motivations to others and disparage creators. You don't like PBR, fine. Creators have every right to embrace it and make items supporting it, just as mesh creators did when mesh was launched to much wailing. PBR has genuine performance issues that are being addressed. Creators are creating, customers are buying. It is that simple.

[Princess Evergarden]

3 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

There is nothing inherently unethical about having a different opinion then you.

No, you made a generalization trying to create a stereotype that designers are all profit hungry monsters. That's unethical. If you don't like PBR don't buy it. Stop trying to ruin it for everyone else. Stop trying to force your untrue factoids and opinions on everyone. Apparently, you like to do this I guess? Honestly, I said what I had to say in my other posts. 

[Charlotte Bartlett]

16 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yep. I haven't tried it yet, and intend to tonight, but I'm convinced. It looks very good.

My butt likes it....  hah!

https://gyazo.com/79faafc2c3deef6f9375129abd54eb10

[WeFlossDaily]

Deleted.

Edited September 14 by WeFlossDaily

[Charlotte Bartlett]

11 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

There is nothing inherently unethical about having a different opinion then you.

You are confusing opinion (and hiding behind this)  with your consistent and Implicit bias.  You were perpetuating a stereotype without factual input.  So yes it is unethical as making statements that are untrue perpetuates misinformation.   This caused my response to you as you utilised the "many creators" statement.

You use this method over and over to introduce misinformation on multiple threads.   You have a pattern, and it's transparent.

Mine wasn't an opinion by the way when I described my efforts with PBR since last year.
See the difference?   You did not respond to the fact and this again leads me back to the bias.

Please do try to not create a hostile environment in each PBR thread.  It's not fair to the rest of the community who genuinely want to discuss these elements without threads getting locked or being trolled.
 

 

[WeFlossDaily]

Deleted.

Edited September 14 by WeFlossDaily

[Cole Evergarden]

14 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

It is one thing to have a different opinion. It is another to ascribe motivations to others and disparage creators. You don't like PBR, fine. Creators have every right to embrace it and make items supporting it, just as mesh creators did when mesh was launched to much wailing. PBR has genuine performance issues that are being addressed. Creators are creating, customers are buying. It is that simple.

I remember the debacle that happened when mesh first released. I was in Gor being a sword fighter. For years, and even still in some places to this day, they are very anti-mesh claiming that it causes lag. While there is some merit to this in some very poorly optimized mesh, like a beard that would constantly render in and out as you were trying to fight them I recall specifically as an example, this was not the case for the vast majority of creators. I spent so much time debunking this for people.

[Cole Evergarden]

8 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

Stating a personal opinion is not akin to spreading misinformation.

"The 'Misinformation Effect' refers to the phenomenon where exposure to false information can lead to the distortion of memory and beliefs, impacting decision-making and behavior."

You're spreading false information about PBR. What else would you call it?

[WeFlossDaily]

Deleted.

Edited September 14 by WeFlossDaily

[Sorciaa]

25 minutes ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

My butt likes it....  hah!

https://gyazo.com/79faafc2c3deef6f9375129abd54eb10

which EEP do you use? I found one that looks ok but looking for better options

[WeFlossDaily]

Deleted.

 

Edited September 14 by WeFlossDaily

[Cole Evergarden]

11 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

You are attempting to label an opinion you don't like as misinformation instead of addressing any of the talking points which could lead somebody to form such an opinion.

But your misinformed opinion/talking points were addressed on multiple levels already, where they've been debunked. Yet you're still clinging to them... so you're just being stubborn. What's your goal then, to show off your metaphorical hate boner for PBR?

[Cristiano Midnight]

3 minutes ago, Cole Evergarden said:

But your misinformed opinion/talking points were addressed on multiple levels already, where they've been debunked. Yet you're still clinging to them... so you're just being stubborn. What's your goal then, to show off your metaphorical hate boner for PBR?

OMG I thought I was the only person who used "hate boner" 😂

[Charlotte Bartlett]

22 minutes ago, WeFlossDaily said:

You are attempting to label an opinion you don't like as misinformation instead of addressing any of the talking points which could lead somebody to form such an opinion.

I suggest you read what you just typed again.... then apply it back to my statement.  Magical

This will be last response to you as last hope you don't derail this thread into a lock.

The distinction between opinion it's not about labeling something I disagree with. An opinion, while subjective, should be based on a reasonable interpretation of facts or evidence. Misinformation, on the other hand, comes from false or misleading information driven from YOUR implicit bias which your statement inherently was over many creators.  You simply have ZERO idea of what creators' are doing as you aren't one, haven't gone out and done research, can't quote a primary metric, survey or anything.  You simply stereotyped (it's a bit like the famous "all creators are lazy"  trope  that gets wheeled out.  No they are not, some are, some are not).

When discussing any topic relating to PBR, you avoid the underlying facts that shape valuable and useful "opinions".

I gave you specific facts about motivation, profit and a creator's rationale.  You avoided it as it did not fit your bias.  So you cannot hide behind your fall back of "it's an opinion" as now is it contrary to facts you have available to you.   So surely your opinion intellectually would evolve if you had a curious mind?  

If not, any opinion formed from misinformation risks being inherently flawed.  Your statement I responded to on "many creators" was flawed and you have not adjusted it so dug in further and went into defending it as an opinion (oh boy).

I’m happy to engage with any valid points and opinions, but first, those opinions need to ensure the information they are based on aren't personally motivated to create toxicity and agenda.

Take the feedback, the lesson, or don't.   Either way when there is no credibility, opinions become... well ignored fully (even if potentially valid in the future) - it only hurts you really.

Edited September 14 by Charlotte Bartlett

[Charlotte Bartlett]

13 minutes ago, Sorciaa said:

which EEP do you use? I found one that looks ok but looking for better options

Hi Sorciaa - I have a few packs up on MP - this was Alice EEP - I am testing outfits using PBR right now too to add to my landscape and house testing and the leather in these worked really well across the range.  

[Quartz Mole]

This thread started with a post about how PBR can be used to enhance the visual experience of SL.

We've had enough threads about how much some people hate PBR, for a variety of reasons, and there's absolutely no need for every thread about PBR to get sidetracked down that, by now, very well-worn path.

Before complaining about how much you hate PBR, please consider whether it's really on topic for this thread, and whether it might  not be better to post your views here:

 

Edited September 14 by Quartz Mole

[WeFlossDaily]

4 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said:

Before complaining about how much you hate PBR, please consider whether it's really on topic for this thread, and whether it might  not be better to post your views here:

Sorry. I didn't mean to. It just sort of happened.

I will self-delete all of my posts in this thread and leave.

[Cole Evergarden]

Anything that uses Unreal Engine uses PBR. So if you've played any game that uses the Unreal Engine, they used PBR. If you're able to handle that, you can handle this. The ball was dropped on a viewer that the vast majority of users operate on, which they are currently fixing. Stop blaming PBR. Just give them time to fix it.

 

 

https://dev.epicgames.com/documentation/en-us/unreal-engine/physically-based-materials-in-unreal-engine

Edited September 14 by Cole Evergarden

[Charlotte Bartlett]

What I really am liking in the enhancement piece is how the leather in these chaps worked on every EEP I had  That’s no mean feat.    (That was a sentence I never expected to make at any point in my life).  Me wearing chaps!  

I am going to retest if anybody remembers the funny latex sofa test from early in again with new leather.   

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Charlotte Bartlett said:

3 hours ago, WeFlossDaily said:

I think many creators are pushing PBR for questionable reasons with the primary goal of making a profit.

You do not speak for the masses, nor any creator.   If you are going to throw out toxic blanket statements please at least be informed, or coming from a position of knowledge.

Good luck with that. Some seem to "double down" no matter what.

[Rowan Amore]

Don't most people who create and sell anything, anywhere hope to make a profit?  

Whether something in SL is PBR enabled or not has no effect whatsoever on whether I'll buy it.  Making a purchase based on that only is kind of silly if you ask me.  I'm actually a little reluctant, at this time, to buy clothing which is PBR only since quite a few people aren't using PBR viewers.  I'd just prefer not to wear white all the time to all.of them.

 

Edited September 14 by Rowan Amore