SarahKB7 Koskinen Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) Edited August 24 by SarahKB7 Koskinen 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 4 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Yes, and I and others have addressed this problem. I'm not sure how often I've talked about the disheartening experience of trying to discuss performance issues in the FS chat groups, and the reception of people having difficulties here hasn't always been exactly welcoming either. I also gather, from Henri at least (and maybe from Nagachief?) that some of the TPV developers raised these issues with LL while it was being developed and tested. The process is clearly flawed, and LL needs to rethink it. I hope that they have remedied it as they now work to fix the performance issues. Agreed. LL have always been pretty terrible at communication and have a tendency to only listen to a few voices (arguably not always the "right ones" either). 6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I agree. This was incompetence, rather than malfeasance. I'll concede that it's easy to confuse the two when it happens with such alarming regularity that you have to wonder if it's intentional or if LL are simply incapable of learning from their mistakes (I too believe it's more likely the latter). 8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I'd be fine with that too, except this really hasn't been "incremental." That makes it sound as though it were planned. They pushed something out, waited months, until the FS release made it unmistakably that they'd screwed up, and then find themselves hurrying to rectify the problems, and address the possible damage it's caused. (I will, however, give them credit for the one update that did improve performance, about a month or so after the original release.) An incremental process works so long as it's a process and not a scramble. And it absolutely requires communication: users need to know that this is not a finished project, but one that is going to be tweaked for a while to come. That didn't happen until this week. LL should have listened more to TPV developers and shouldn't have left it up to other residents to moderate the collective efforts of the community to test the new features (there should be employees actively monitoring testing groups and engaging with any residents on the beta grid and gathering feedback). That they had to wait for TPV developers to release PBR viewers before realising how widespread the issues would be has only made matters worse but that's the consequence of leaving third party developers to provide the tools that the majority of their customers use to gain access to their product. I don't think "immediate incremental change" necessarily needs to be that structured when it comes to squashing bugs and finding ways to improve performance. Of course it's always better and less chaotic when things go according to a plan but LL are in a very difficult position because, as we've already discussed, their old methods of testing release candidates has proven to be totally ineffective and, apparently, the only way they can really get any indication of how changes to the viewer effect the majority of residents is to get the majority of residents to try it. Having used release candidate viewers from LL in the past to test new features it isn't that uncommon for them to receive multiple updates in quick succession as the more severe bugs get reported and fixed and this latest viewer (Atlasaurus) seems to be undergoing the same process. 25 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: In the meantime, as I say, people who came here or to in-world groups to report issues were told by a great many people that, well, tough luck -- time to buy a new computer. Or, memorably, "Bye, and don't let the door hit you on the way out." While the reality is that there are going to be some people that will need to upgrade their hardware I agree that there has been a distinct lack of tact and empathy in the way some have broached the subject, but then there's been plenty of accusations, vitriol and scorn from a few folks on either side of this argument. All in all it's been a pretty disappointing and demoralising debacle all round. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 4 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said: "Reaching out"?.... Or knuckling under? The reality is: the concurrency is down, the number of islands is dwindling, and they realize they have to stop the hemorrhage. Anyone one else gonna ride it all the way down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Quantifiably so, in a way that can't simply be accounted for because it's August? Isn’t the time of year always blamed for logins being down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: They have probably seen a bunch of Fail-Viewer users drift away from their PBR Fail Viewer to non PBR TPV's, which might be a more telling metric. Anyone with a PC that CAN'T run Fail-Viewer-PBR, basically faced a choice, change to non PBR TPV or QUIT SL. Then an unseasonal drop in concurrency, and then the crap-storm over PBR Bloatstorm... Edit: I just checked the numbers, it's Saturday morning in the EU/UK, and people who are not at work, should be logging in to check the weekend sales... Concurrency is currently... 29116 That's "Tuesday Afternoon in the UK in the middle of the Rolling Restarts" level. Not good news. dont forget, 15000 of them are 24/7 bots or avis always logged in to game the visitor stats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Sid tells me that they've had two mandatory viewer upgrades (for the LL viewer) in the past 24 hours. Also not a good sign. Wow, did they ever screw this up. isn’t that called a SNAFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabriele Graves Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) I know it's not a popular thing to say but I don't care one bit. I'll say it anyway: LL has a pretty good track record on updates over the years, overall and especially compared to a lot of software companies. These days paying customers are always the testers to some degree for pretty much every piece of software being "released". Look at the Sonos or Crowdstrike debacle or the numerous instances Microsoft bricking people's PCs over the years. It is becoming more common from major companies with deep pockets if anything. The fact that this release which admittedly misjudged the number of people whose hardware cannot run very well or at all with the defaults on FS (note: nobody flamed down the forums when LL released their PBR viewer) caused such a meltdown from those affected people instead of everyone rolling their eyes and just going "ahh yeah, it must be release day because nothing is working again" tells me that this occurrence is rare in LL's and FS's release history. On top of this, LL and FS devs are clearly committed to working hard to improve performance as a priority including making sure non-PBR FS remains available to give themselves time to improve viewer performance for low end hardware tells me that LL and the FS devs do care very much about what has happened. This is encouraging and very positive in my opinion. This is the behaviour and approach I would expect from professional software companies when there is a problem. The measure isn't whether anyone ever makes mistakes or not because everyone does sometimes. No, the measure is in how they are dealt with once mistakes are made. It doesn't matter whether they did that well in the past or not. What matters is now and going forward. If we are constantly judging by past behaviour and ignoring improved behaviour then we are telling them it doesn't matter how much they improve, people will still judge them as harshly as before. I don't think that is a reasonable way forward if we want LL to do better generally. As usual though mostly all we read from some is how badly handled everything is, always has been and always will be. Sheesh. Despite the borderline hysteria and when it comes down to brass tacks, let's face it, nobody, I repeat nobody was forced to quit, nobody's favourite viewer was taken away, nothing had to change for anyone if they just took the time to downgrade, even if they had to ask and were patient while people work on fixing the issues. Sure, make their issues known, I mean how else do LL, FS and others know they are having problems. However, a lot of what went on inworld and here on the forums and the way it was expressed went way beyond making their issues known and was very unnecessary. I understand why and even sympathise but there's a valuable lesson in all this for those who choose to see it. It would have cost nobody, anything just to wait and see what would happen. Edited August 24 by Gabriele Graves 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 God, it’s like watching reruns. Yet another thread (episode) that has devolved into “SL is doomed and the sky is falling”. Can’t you people come up with some more original forum content rather than just recycling the same old scripts for 15 years? This show needs more diverse story lines. Where are the kids? Get the kids back in here, those were some good episodes. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 3 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: God, it’s like watching reruns. Yet another thread (episode) that has devolved into “SL is doomed and the sky is falling”. Can’t you people come up with some more original forum content rather than just recycling the same old scripts for 15 years? This show needs more diverse story lines. Where are the kids? Get the kids back in here, those were some good episodes. I think you are really missing the point here... Sorry. The way I see it, LL is finally adressing the PBR debacle. In some way or another. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Sid tells me that they've had two mandatory viewer upgrades (for the LL viewer) in the past 24 hours. Also not a good sign. Wow, did they ever screw this up. That would be for the release-candidate so all updates are mandatory if you're running it. The release viewer build number hasn't changed since June. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: dont forget, 15000 of them are 24/7 bots or avis always logged in to game the visitor stats Concurrency figures for the "Great Bot Viewer Outage" and the same time/day the week before and the week after prove fairly conclusively that it's more like 3,000 bots, not 10,000, or 15, 000, or 25,000, or any of the other made up numbers spouted by clueless paranoid bot-hating Captain Oldbies, worried that an "Army of Bots is scraping their IP" because when they went to some venue in a 2006 system avi with no AO, nobody bothered to IM them and beg for SLex. Edited August 24 by Zalificent Corvinus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: Anyone one else gonna ride it all the way down? I may be naive, but so far improvements to the LL viever seem to have been just that - improvements. They may have royally effed up in this particular case, but the ship hasn't gone down just yet. Seems like they are working on it at least, finally. Or so one may hope I guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalificent Corvinus Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 51 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: God, it’s like watching reruns. Yet another thread (episode) that has devolved into “SL is doomed and the sky is falling”. Can’t you people come up with some more original forum content rather than just recycling the same old scripts for 15 years? This show needs more diverse story lines. Where are the kids? Get the kids back in here, those were some good episodes. Are "Fake Daddies and Fake Children Family Friendly M Rated Nude Orgy Beaches" snapshots MORE or LESS illegal when textured and rendered in PBR? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 45 minutes ago, HeathcliffMontague said: I think you are really missing the point here... Sorry. The way I see it, LL is finally adressing the PBR debacle. In some way or another. Oh I wasn't even looking for the point. Just being facetious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 Just now, Porky Gorky said: Oh I wasn't even looking for the point. Just being facetious. Fair enough 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said: Are "Fake Daddies and Fake Children Family Friendly M Rated Nude Orgy Beaches" snapshots MORE or LESS illegal when textured and rendered in PBR? There you go, that's the spirit, a nice controversial plot line, lets everyone discuss this. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 2 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: There you go, that's the spirit, a nice controversial plot line, lets everyone discuss this. Please let's not 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Gabriele Graves said: However, a lot of what went on inworld and here on the forums and the way it was expressed went way beyond making their issues known and was very unnecessary. I understand why and even sympathise but there's a valuable lesson in all this for those who choose to see it. It would have cost nobody, anything just to wait and see what would happen. ^^^^ THIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 1 hour ago, Porky Gorky said: God, it’s like watching reruns. Yet another thread (episode) that has devolved into “SL is doomed and the sky is falling”. Can’t you people come up with some more original forum content rather than just recycling the same old scripts for 15 years? This show needs more diverse story lines. Where are the kids? Get the kids back in here, those were some good episodes. I agree. I'm so bored with this forum I think I'll stop reading it, or only read what I call 'the outer edges' and comment there, like the sane people do -- how does your avatar look, what's new in Belli, mesh, and the Marketplace.. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 22 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'm so bored with this forum I think I'll stop reading it, or only read what I call 'the outer edges' and comment there, like the sane people do OMG! One of the main characters is thinking of leaving the show! That right there is what you call a plot twist. All us casual fans and viewers of Luna need to set up a “Save Luna Bliss” campaign to keep her on the show. It will be like “Save Daniel Jackson” all over again. I will set up a gofundme and promise to donate 25% of all proceeds to produce Save Luna Bliss related paraphernalia. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: All us casual fans and viewers of Luna need to set up a “Save Luna Bliss” campaign to keep her on the show. My casual fans lie on the periphery and are likely thinking "Luna, why did you stay so long"? But the fact is...I was never really there...I've never liked the innermost realms of any group due to the distorted dynamics that develop there, a kind of untruth that always keeps me at bay. * Write me in to the show as a kind of ghost ...there for others to project on... Edited August 24 by Luna Bliss 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tjay Wicken Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 57 minutes ago, Porky Gorky said: It will be like “Save Daniel Jackson” all over again. Looking back, Jonas Quinn was actually a decent replacement. Wouldn't have been the same without his arc. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Gorky Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 54 minutes ago, Tjay Wicken said: Looking back, Jonas Quinn was actually a decent replacement. Wouldn't have been the same without his arc. How dare you! Parker Lewis was never an acceptable replacement for Daniel Jackson. 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 3 hours ago, HeathcliffMontague said: I may be naive, but so far improvements to the LL viever seem to have been just that - improvements. They may have royally effed up in this particular case, but the ship hasn't gone down just yet. Seems like they are working on it at least, finally. Or so one may hope I guess? Question is whether the Firestorm team in conjunction with the SL devs, can successfully transfer the updates to FS as that is where the problems with PBR were being seen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeathcliffMontague Posted August 24 Share Posted August 24 17 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Question is whether the Firestorm team in conjunction with the SL devs, can successfully transfer the updates to FS as that is where the problems with PBR were being seen. Yep, it really only came to the surface with FS, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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