Linden Lab your PBR is giving me a headache

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Well, as someone who works as a software engineer, I don't envy what you're going to put yourselves through, but good luck

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

4 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Well, as someone who works as a software engineer, I don't envy what you're going to put yourselves through, but good luck

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

I think that only works for Wolverine, Deadpool, and their cadre of mutants who were basically tortured and became strong. I guess Steve Rogers is similar.

[Count Burks]

18 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

You own a large land rental company, yes? You are in a position to collect data from all the people that rent from you about their experience with PBR, and how it has impacted their decisions. This will not only be important to safeguard the longevity of your business, but would also be good for the entire userbase to have a representative sample of what people are doing.

I have customers who complain about seeing grey. I haven't heard anything positive yet, only people who go back to the older version of Firestorm. 

Linden Lab should hire a small army of senior graphic designers to sort out the mess, also reverting back to the previous server/viewer code would be smart until they can come up with a presentable solution.

I remember when Viewer 2 got launched, I logged in and everything looked normal, the water shader looked good. People did not like that viewer because of the interface but in terms of graphics it was ok.

When I log in I will not start to mess around with Windlight settings, I set my viewer to Midday as many other people do and I expect scenery to look normal.

The best option would be to have PBR as an option in the Preference panel. It might be impossible to do this. In any case this version looks like a Beta for things to come and certainly not anything ready for daily use.

Fact is that according to Linden Lab their developers one needs a very strong computer now to participate in Second Life.

[BriannaLovey]

14 minutes ago, Count Burks said:

I have customers who complain about seeing grey. I haven't heard anything positive yet, only people who go back to the older version of Firestorm. 

Linden Lab should hire a small army of senior graphic designers to sort out the mess, also reverting back to the previous server/viewer code would be smart until they can come up with a presentable solution.

I remember when Viewer 2 got launched, I logged in and everything looked normal, the water shader looked good. People did not like that viewer because of the interface but in terms of graphics it was ok.

When I log in I will not start to mess around with Windlight settings, I set my viewer to Midday as many other people do and I expect scenery to look normal.

The best option would be to have PBR as an option in the Preference panel. It might be impossible to do this. In any case this version looks like a Beta for things to come and certainly not anything ready for daily use.

Fact is that according to Linden Lab their developers one needs a very strong computer now to participate in Second Life.

They already spend $400/month on intern developers to write the code that powers the PBR engine, they need some time to recover financially.

Joking aside, @Henri Beauchamp already wrote a dual-renderer that allows for PBR to be turned off. If a single unpaid hobby developer can do it, then LL has no excuse.

Edited Wednesday at 11:13 PM by BriannaLovey

[Arielle Popstar]

35 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

What's more, PBR is only part of what LL is working on. LL are working on supporting entire glTF scenes, which means your viewer won't be able to render entire skyboxes and assets made in glTF format. Many creators have collectively agreed that we will be considering viewers that don't support glTF as 'out of band' for product support and indeed this is the line LL seem to be agreeing to take too. It will simply be too much of a headache to try to support old viewers forever.

Maybe it is just reaching a point where from the Linden developers view as well as some Creators, it is going to be too much of a headache supporting older residents too. Meaning those who are balking at content becoming increasingly difficult to create and keep up to date with for those just looking to do some light creating or modifying both in terms of knowledge and tools to do it with. Just really moving more and more to where we have professional creators and consumer residents. 

Empty sandboxes, little local chat where people discuss how to make their virtual world better because it is all in the hands of professionals in ivory towers.

[BriannaLovey]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe it is just reaching a point where from the Linden developers view as well as some Creators, it is going to be too much of a headache supporting older residents too. Meaning those who are balking at content becoming increasingly difficult to create and keep up to date with for those just looking to do some light creating or modifying both in terms of knowledge and tools to do it with. Just really moving more and more to where we have professional creators and consumer residents. 

Empty sandboxes, little local chat where people discuss how to make their virtual world better because it is all in the hands of professionals in ivory towers.

One demographic optimized for production, another demographic optimized for consumption...I swear I have heard this somewhere.

Wherever that is from, I suspect it is going to drive those who don't neatly fit into one or the other to break away from SL altogether.

What you say reminds me of a story of someone I found on a sim once. I will not name names, but this guy just had a silly little snowman avatar that he created himself using prims. His creation was on MP, so I got a copy and ran around with him and had fun! I am relatively new to SL compared to most, but if this is what SL used to be like...oh my. Something has definitely been lost.

This is the example of someone who is not going to fit well with SL in the future, where nothing but raw production and consumption feed into each other endlessly.

[Extrude Ragu]

13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Maybe it is just reaching a point where from the Linden developers view as well as some Creators, it is going to be too much of a headache supporting older residents too.

I don't support this sentiment. I think we should be positive about older residents, but not at the expense of everyone else. I do advocate at user group meetings for tools aimed specifically at getting residents who are left behind into creating for instance continually at UG meetings.

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I don't support this sentiment. I think we should be positive about older residents, but not at the expense of everyone else. I do advocate at user group meetings for tools aimed specifically at getting residents who are left behind into creating for instance continually at UG meetings.

Time will tell the size of "everyone else" relative to "older residents". The outcome of this entire debacle will ultimately depend on which is larger, and which is more responsible for keeping LL afloat financially.

[Extrude Ragu]

2 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

Time will tell the size of "everyone else" relative to "older residents". The outcome of this entire debacle will ultimately depend on which is larger, and which is more responsible for keeping LL afloat financially.

I'd put forward that a platform that can't attract new residents is a financial ticking time bomb. People don't live forever, you know?

[Zalificent Corvinus]

3 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I don't support this sentiment. I think we should be positive about older residents, but not at the expense of everyone else. I do advocate at user group meetings for tools aimed specifically at getting residents who are left behind into creating for instance continually at UG meetings.

 

Yeah, that's a useless exercise.

 

"Hey LL, those old people on fixed incomes who can't afford a new pc to run PBR. You should run Blender courses for them, so they can become CONTENT CREATORS... Who can't log in because their old pc's crash under PBR..."

 

Yeah, another brilliant plan from the Positivity Cultist school of pointlessness.

 

[BriannaLovey]

1 minute ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

Yeah, that's a useless exercise.

 

"Hey LL, those old people on fixed incomes who can't afford a new pc to run PBR. You should run Blender courses for them, so they can become CONTENT CREATORS... Who can't log in because their old pc's crash under PBR..."

 

Yeah, another brilliant plan from the Positivity Cultist school of pointlessness.

 

lmao your pessimism is hilarious sometimes

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

People don't live forever, you know?

That doesn't justify "digital euthanasia".

"You're old, you won't live forever so the Futureness cultists demand we delete your account now!"

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 minute ago, BriannaLovey said:

lmao your pessimism is hilarious sometimes

Let's just say I'm used to some forumites posting a never ending stream of bloody awful ideas of utter uselessness, based on the Dogma of the Cult of Pointless Positivity.

 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I'd put forward that a platform that can't attract new residents is a financial ticking time bomb. People don't live forever, you know?

The lab is simply not that dependent on new residents except to the point that it gives the landowners continued confidence to pay for another month's tier. That is by and large where most the Lab's income derives from. The L$ and content sales fees are just some gravy.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

Lol, @Zalificent Corvinus  do you use a thesaurus to come up with all these words/terms?  You certainly have me chuckling throughout the day

 

[stlshayne]

Genuine question: let's say I got a new computer in 2003 and joined the brand new SL. At what point am I being unreasonable for complaining that SL has surpassed what my computer can handle? 

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

The lab is simply not that dependent on new residents except to the point that it gives the landowners continued confidence to pay for another month's tier. That is by and large where most the Lab's income derives from. The L$ and content sales fees are just some gravy.

What a strange thing to potentially put your platform in jeopardy over, then.

[Extrude Ragu]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

"Hey LL, those old people on fixed incomes who can't afford a new pc to run PBR. You should run Blender courses for them, so they can become CONTENT CREATORS... Who can't log in because their old pc's crash under PBR...

That's not what I said nor what I want at all.

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

That doesn't justify "digital euthanasia".

"You're old, you won't live forever so the Futureness cultists demand we delete your account now!"

Also does not represent my opinion.

 

Why bother discussing things with you, if you will just make up some new meaning for any of my words?

[Cube Republic]

5 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

Genuine question: let's say I got a new computer in 2003 and joined the brand new SL. At what point am I being unreasonable for complaining that SL has surpassed what my computer can handle? 

That would be win xp, 4gb of memory, a 2.5ghz processor and something like  9800 GPU with what 1 gb of VRAM?

Not very long lol 

 

I made my last PC last 8 years, and it could have probably gone another 2 if I'd got a new GPU, but the GPU bridge design changed, so that sucks, so I thought no point spending on old hardware, there comes a point!

Edited Wednesday at 11:49 PM by Cube Republic

[Extrude Ragu]

2 minutes ago, stlshayne said:

Genuine question: let's say I got a new computer in 2003 and joined the brand new SL. At what point am I being unreasonable for complaining that SL has surpassed what my computer can handle?

From my perspective I'd put it at approximately 8-10 years. It just becomes very expensive to support old hardware in terms of man-hours beyond that in my experience.

[Cube Republic]

Just now, Extrude Ragu said:

From my perspective I'd put it at approximately 8-10 years. It just becomes very expensive to support old hardware in terms of man-hours beyond that in my experience.

Was a funny period, many transitions then from single to multi core, solid state, much more memory. 8-10 years would have been generous. 

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Not that I am a plant person but how difficult would it be anyway to have a pbr and non pbr version available if you have the amount of experience you are saying you have?

Not hard for those of us already working in PBR and converted to SPC already. The issue wasn't if the materials looked good, again.. the issue is MANY not even having the lighting turned on to make these materials work, so COMPLAINTS and LOW RATINGS because they didn't know why. Secondly, TOP creators only using Baked Lighting images and no norms or spc anyway..

So I'm not sure how PBR solves this issue. I still think the practice by many (and the issues from customers) will remain, until LL 'forces' them to view the world (and products) as intended.

I have no skin in this game other than making sure anything I make can be seen as intended, and NOT badly just because I actually textured it to SL's specifications! WHy do I feel alone on this!

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, BriannaLovey said:

What a strange thing to potentially put your platform in jeopardy over, then.

Well SL's own viewer seems to have less problems running PBR then FS's new release does which makes me wonder in itself. How many of the machines that are having problems with FS, would run SL's own viewer easier? I think probably a percentage would though we would still be left with some of the brightness and darkness issue but those are resolvable as well as SL's viewer being just terrible in usability and lacking any support.

The Lab probably just thinks some coding elbow grease and this will all blow over and we will welcome in a brighter new future.

[Extrude Ragu]

1 minute ago, Cube Republic said:

Was a funny period, many transitions then from single to multi core, solid state, much more memory. 8-10 years would have been generous. 

True. Computers were evolving a lot faster back then.

[BriannaLovey]

Just now, Codex Alpha said:

Not hard for those of us already working in PBR and converted to SPC already. The issue wasn't if the materials looked good, again.. the issue is MANY not even having the lighting turned on to make these materials work, so COMPLAINTS and LOW RATINGS because they didn't know why. Secondly, TOP creators only using Baked Lighting images and no norms or spc anyway..

So I'm not sure how PBR solves this issue. I still think the practice by many (and the issues from customers) will remain, until LL 'forces' them to view the world (and products) as intended.

I have no skin in this game other than making sure anything I make can be seen as intended, and NOT badly just because I actually textured it to SL's specifications! WHy do I feel alone on this!

The only way to realistically force people to do that is to outlaw third-party viewers entirely. If that happens...oh gosh.

The easiest way for stuff you create to be seen correctly is to put a diffuse texture on it and nothing else. PBR isn't going to solve anything unless LL bans third-party viewers.