Firestorm PBR Release Is Out

[Harper Held]

52 minutes ago, lovestofu said:

I'm genuinely concerned by the resistance to PBR's adoption, and I think it indicates that these forums are a poor source of actionable feedback for Linden Lab.

I've been in SL since 2008 -2005 if you count my trial run.

Believe me -Linden Lab listening to their customers is the absolute rock-bottom last thing you need to worry about!

 

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

Ultimately anything that makes second life look more realistic is better for photographers. I have noticed that a lot of my stuff that had normal maps and specular maps look better to me even without any PBR material added. I use a lot of landscaping that has high-quality textures with additional maps applied and they got a visual boost with PBR. Even something as simple as the stucco wall next to my pool looks richer. I compared it before and after and while it is not dramatic, the way the light looks on it and the slight bumps just look better. I don't think it was done for photographers specifically, but for the visual fidelity of SL, which did need an upgrade to modernize even more.

I can assure you, Cristiano, no one is checking out the walls in your pictures.  😉

[Harper Held]

[redacted]

Edited June 22 by Harper Held

[Zalificent Corvinus]

21 minutes ago, Toothless Draegonne said:

Unity, UE5, all the popular engines that so many people have wanted a viewer to be made in

Bad news. For the Useless Engine SL Cultists.

By the time you've modified any Flavour of Useless Engine Build A First Person Shooter kit, to work as an SL viewer, including adding support for an image file format nobody else in the games dev community uses, and for propriatary mesh and animation formats, and a propriatary script language, and everything else, including how one actually moves from region to region, by the time you've altered all of the stuff that needs altering, especially including the way content is streamed rather than read off the users hard disk after a single install.

By the time you have done that, all the cultists supposed "benefits" of using Useless engine, will have vanished, and it will perform just as badly as current viewers.

That's why NOBODY has done it already.

 

If it was as good an idea and as simple as Useless Engine cultists make out, we'd have seen one a decade ago, and all viewers today would be Useless Engine based.

 

 

 

[Toothless Draegonne]

12 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I'm not a luddite, I just have a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of these things than, well, most Secondlifers, because I actually mess with graphics a lot, games modding, and all that.

I'm aware of what PBR is supposed to be, and thus aware of what LL's PBR obviously is not.

That's why I call it a half finished abortion of half a PBR system.

That's why I find clumsily crowbarring in a broken version of PBR into a platform which by it's VERY nature will never really be suitable for PBR, just to appease a few content creators who have taken out a mortgage on Adumby Substance Abuse, at the expense of EVERYONE else in SL, with poor rendering, poor colour tone mapping, poor environment settings, poor lighting,  poor documentation, and poor quality coding, really, really, annoying.

 

It's almost as if they are TRYING to drive away enough of their customers to push the platform into a loss making spiral.

Or maybe, just maybe, adopting a standard that has little to do with Substance and more to do with open standards and making sure the platform stays relevant past the death of OpenGL, is a way of keeping the system alive?

You would be surprised at the number of videogame industry insiders also have Second Life accounts. It's not just you. Personally I'm hoping the Lab actually expand on PBR now it's been started, and we get stuff like parallax maps added to the list. Maybe a node editor for more custom shaders. But that's all in the future, and PBR is the foundation on which it is based.

Bring on scenegraphs and Vulkan support!

[JeromFranzic]

Just tested the SL and OS versions in Windows and Linux for over an hour. So far... yep, more GPU usage for sure. But nothing too nasty. Mirrors work OK for me, I just frame limit to every second frame, 512 px as I have an older GPU (GTX 1050) than the lot of you. I'm limiting it to 40 FPS. No crashes yet.
 

As I expected, overall a much better experience for me in Linux, partly due to less desktop environment overhead VS Windows 11. I was running the KDE Plasma DE (kubuntu) for a while. Decided to switch to LXqt (lubuntu) recently and I get a bit more system RAM to utilize. LXqt is designed for much older PC's (as in older than 2020... 2018... think 10-12+ year old PC's) but it's great for anyone looking for an old school look and feel for a desktop, while having modern functions "under the hood"... as in the media keys on your gamer keyboard will work 100% out of the box along with your colorful LED's. ETA... said functionality might depend on your chosen Linux distro.

Edited June 22 by JeromFranzic

[Fauve Aeon]

I’m going to read all of the documentation, do everything suggested to maximize my experience and the performance of my machines, and make a real effort this summer towards learning all I can about the new texture and environment properties and how to best use them. I’ll reassess things once I’ve given all of this my own best effort and attention. I appreciate all of the hard work that has gone into bringing this, honestly. The videos I’ve seen of it working well are STUNNING! I want me some of that! 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

By the time you've modified any Flavour of Useless Engine Build A First Person Shooter kit, to work as an SL viewer, including adding support for an image file format nobody else in the games dev community uses, and for propriatary mesh and animation formats, and a propriatary script language, and everything else, including how one actually moves from region to region, by the time you've altered all of the stuff that needs altering, especially including the way content is streamed rather than read off the users hard disk after a single install.

By the time you have done that, all the cultists supposed "benefits" of using Useless engine, will have vanished, and it will perform just as badly as current viewers.

That's why NOBODY has done it already.

I'm always a little taken aback by how you manage to seem so angry at seemingly harmless and non-confrontational things like software apps and game engines (did a subroutine mercilessly murder your entire family and now you've sworn revenge on random pieces of code... just wondering?).

Regardless, you are of course right that there's no way Unreal Engine or Unity could ever be used as a viewer for SL but that doesn't mean that other similar platforms couldn't be developed using those engines in the future.  Of course said platforms would have to impose very different rules regarding the way content is handled or they risk the same pitfalls that SL now faces, but that doesn't mean there aren't other approaches to creating virtual worlds that could work perfectly well with a more traditional game engine.

LL have pretty much painted themselves into a corner with SL, it's just a matter of if they can find a way out of it before someone else comes along and works out a better way.

[Modulated]

20 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I'm not a luddite, I just have a better understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of these things than, well, most Secondlifers, because I actually mess with graphics a lot, games modding, and all that.

 

That's a big statement.  You probably mean the forums, not all of Second Life....right ? Right??

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, lovestofu said:

If SL is supposed to be the premier metaverse experience

Frankly, just the fact that you think that SL is a "metaverse", or that anything is a "metaverse" is enough to cast doubts on anything you think you "know" being relevant.

 

1 hour ago, lovestofu said:

I think SL looks a lot better with PBR.

First of all, PBR tends to leave everything de-saturated, and over-contrasted. That's not "looking better".

Then there is the fact that PBR's real strength is metallic shaders, auto-calculating metallic style specular colour, instead of a creator having to use SKILL to set that colour manually, as in Blinn-Phong.

For NON metallic surfaces, PBR offers very few advantages over Blinn-Phong, and very little observed difference, other than the aforementioned de-saturate/over-contrast effect of the ACES tone mapping.

 

1 hour ago, lovestofu said:

I'm genuinely concerned by the resistance to PBR's adoption, and I think it indicates that these forums are a poor source of actionable feedback for Linden Lab.

So you think the only "actional feedback" they sould get is the kind from people with poor understanding who never disagree with the devs?

"*lick lick fawn fawn grovel grovel* Mr. Linden Dev Sir, the summer sky is winter grey, all the colours have been bleached out, a vast improvement Mr. Linden Dev sir, I this humble slave might be allowed to say so... *lick lick fawn fawn grovel grovel*"

 

Yeah that's a GREAT way to develop a platform.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

the summer sky is winter grey

To be fair, if you're living in the UK that would be considered hyper-realistic 90% of the time! 😅

[Codex Alpha]

6 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

To be fair, if you're living in the UK that would be considered hyper-realistic 90% of the time! 😅

If he is living in the UK, a drab desaturated tinge to everything should appear normal to Zal.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

8 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I'm always a little taken aback by how you manage to seem so angry at seemingly harmless and non-confrontational things like software apps and game engines

I'm just sick and tired of Tech incompetent people saying stuff like "LL should use Useless Engine, cos Medal of duty gives me 400 fps! when I'm ganking noobs in 4k resolution, so it mustt make SL better, amiright?"

 

That's quite apart from the whole "build a game with a first person shooter dev kit, and it ends up either as a first person shooter or really bad" thing.

It's almost as annoying as the idiots who claim that "there is a universal standard for game controls, because ALL of the Useless engine based First person shooters I platy all use the same controls! Therefore ALL games use that, amiright?".

Cretins who blather about "Texture Atlas" usage, who have NEVER edited an ACTUAL Texture Atlas and who wouldn't know one if they saw one,  also annoy the hell out of me.

 

 

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

If he is living in the UK, a drab desaturated tinge to everything should appear normal to Zal.

SHE, I know, from your posting history, that you have problems with the idea of "mere females" actually knowing how to use a computer, but get used to it.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

If he is living in the UK, a drab desaturated tinge to everything should appear normal to Zal.

I must admit that SL does feel a little more homely and familiar now.  One nice thing about living in a world perpetually populated with shades of grey is that no matter what season it is, black always looks good!

[Codex Alpha]

26 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

SHE, I know, from your posting history, that you have problems with the idea of "mere females" actually knowing how to use a computer, but get used to it.

Oh look another accusation out of left field. I was trying not to even address any gender at all, so used the name but I slipped up at the beginning anyway. LOL. and Zal will take ANY opportunity to manifest hate.

See what the problem with all this crap is? Anything to get offended nowadays or to just scold.

Seriously , you need to assume the best of me - all your accusations to this point have been seriously incorrect, and that's all I am going to respond to.

In fact, it's best I don't even deal with you in any way, even when we agree.

But keep talking and posting - you remind me of a particularly nasty fellow from HifI that talked the same way.

Edited June 22 by Codex Alpha

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

6 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

I'm just sick and tired of Tech incompetent people saying stuff like "LL should use Useless Engine, cos Medal of duty gives me 400 fps! when I'm ganking noobs in 4k resolution, so it mustt make SL better, amiright?"

 

That's quite apart from the whole "build a game with a first person shooter dev kit, and it ends up either as a first person shooter or really bad" thing.

It's almost as annoying as the idiots who claim that "there is a universal standard for game controls, because ALL of the Useless engine based First person shooters I platy all use the same controls! Therefore ALL games use that, amiright?".

Cretins who blather about "Texture Atlas" usage, who have NEVER edited an ACTUAL Texture Atlas and who wouldn't know one if they saw one,  also annoy the hell out of me.

 

 

Okay!

I agree that those claiming you can just "make a viewer" using UE or Unity are displaying a lack of understanding about what SL is and how it works.

As for the rest...

I assume by first person shooter dev kit you mean the templates/example projects that are designed to teach people how to use game engines and how some people foolishly try to use them to create a full game (I mean there are plenty of good games created using both Unity and UE so surely you don't mean every game made using them is either "a first person shooter or really bad").

There are certain controls that have become more widely used, but it's not like anyone is forced to adopt them, I wouldn't consider them a "universal standard".  If enough people complain about a "non-standard" control system then I guess the developers of the software will change it and if not they won't bother?

I like the idea of texture atlases but lately I've been experimenting a lot more with trim sheets.  Texture atlases aren't really great for SL since there's no point putting the textures for 20 assets on a single large texture if the majority of people are only going to use one or two of those assets in a "scene".  For creating buildings or any large modular assets trim sheets are an excellent way to maintain continuity and can  really help cut down on those unique baked textures that eat up so much VRAM.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

18 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Seriously , you need to assume the best of me

No, I really don't.

 

[Leslie Trihey]

After a little tweaking (like reinstalling firestorm to my ssd fixing most of the issues I had for some reason) I am quite enjoying PBR. Congrats on graduating 2009 graphics second life. 🥳

[Zalificent Corvinus]

11 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I assume by first person shooter dev kit you mean the templates/example projects that are designed to teach people how to use game engines and how some people foolishly try to use them to create a full game (I mean there are plenty of good games created using both Unity and UE so surely you don't mean every game made using them is either "a first person shooter or really bad").

Well, for starters the 20 odd year history of Unreal, begins with the IDTech 3 engine ( Quake ), a first/third person shooter.

It's always been an FPS Engine, one of the reasons it's so widespread is that you can throw together an FPS faster using the FPS specific engine, just slap your own intro videos, and character models, and UI images into it, 6 months for a game instead of 24.

Crap game but people still did it.

 

I've played non FPS games written with these FPS engines, and that conflict shows.

15 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

I like the idea of texture atlases but lately I've been experimenting a lot more with trim sheets.  Texture atlases aren't really great for SL since there's no point putting the textures for 20 assets on a single large texture if the majority of people are only going to use one or two of those assets in a "scene".

Texture atlases are great for things they were designed for, like UI buttons, or content icons, or map markers. SL by and large doesn't use those much., except for images of letters for text display, an atlas with all the separate letter icons on one texture. That's pretty much it in SL.

 

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Well, for starters the 20 odd year history of Unreal, begins with the IDTech 3 engine ( Quake ), a first/third person shooter.

It's always been an FPS Engine, one of the reasons it's so widespread is that you can throw together an FPS faster using the FPS specific engine, just slap your own intro videos, and character models, and UI images into it, 6 months for a game instead of 24.

Crap game but people still did it.

 

I've played non FPS games written with these FPS engines, and that conflict shows.

Okay, point taken.  There have been a lot of lazy "game devs" who've done exactly  what you describe.  I'm still not sure that I'd agree that all non-FPS games made using those engines are inherently "bad" but what makes a game good or bad is pretty subjective and very much depends on what elements an individual values most.  Of course a dedicated game engine written specifically for a single game is going to be better, but for those smaller indie devs that don't have the time or resources to do that I think UE, Unity, etc are nice alternatives.

8 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Texture atlases are great for things they were designed for, like UI buttons, or content icons, or map markers. SL by and large doesn't use those much., except for images of letters for text display, an atlas with all the separate letter icons on one texture. That's pretty much it in SL.

Agreed, and with the types of resolutions people are using for textures in SL using a texture atlas on most objects would be sneered at by most folks because even at 2k it won't be nearly high enough resolution to appease most customers.  The only other valid use I can really think of for atlases in SL (aside from those you mentioned) would be things like decal sets for modular building kits with multiple versions of shutters, windows, etc which could be used to add variation to repeating sections of mesh components, but that's pretty specific and not really something most creators would be messing with I'd imagine.

[Infierna Bloodrose]

After reading a Ton of scary reviews  I decided to chime in.  This morning I loaded the PBR viewer on my 6 year old  8 GB  HP laptop , and as expected... it wouldn't load textures and in general was a mess.

They said that was going to happen and it did!!! Sadly low graphics machines with  low RAM are not going to work for using SL anymore.  Now the good news...  The REALLY good news.

This last March I bought a decent gaming computer. Not top of the line but not bottom end either.  Here's the spec for you tekkies...

(Skytech Chronos Gaming PC Desktop INTEL Core i7 12700F 2.1 GHz, NVIDIA RTX 4060, 1TB NVME SSD, 16GB DDR4 RAM 3200, 650W GOLD PSU, 240mm AIO, 11AC Wi-Fi, Windows 11 Home 64-bit)

On the old non pbr Firestorm viewer I was getting a ridiculous high fps. Still I'd go to some sims and things wouldn't load right or my graphics would do weird things.

On this new PBR viewer , I turned off the damn mirrors ( that will  drop your fps rate to stupid lows )... set shadows to Static only and the environment setting to the new mid-day, Draw distance at 240, made sure the reflection stuff was OFF, and headed off to the  (previously)  hardest to render sim I knew of. 

It was.... Stunning. 
I got bold and hit the  sim setting enviro and WOW. Also I was walking around like a champ. Things rezzing immediately and way faster than before even. My computer fans were not making one bit of noise or any of the other  scary things about overheating I've been reading.  At my home area the view and the frame rate is way beyond good.  The fps of  my stupidly high  480 dropped to around 370. My computer isn't even breaking a sweat. FPS  at the hard to render sim  went no lower than 80.  

Simply put.. this is beautiful

It's golden ... it's glowey and it is truly full of stars!! I'm in love with SL all over again. 

 Enough so that  I'm re activating my substance painter subscription  so I can start making   shiny pretty things with **more** than a flat base texture, some bump mapping and hand tweaked specular maps.

SL just took a giant leap forward.

Yes some things look different, darker darks, brighter bright's, and a sort of almost underwater effect to things in the distance. 

 It's pretty!  If it seems "too much" simply lower a few settings to tone things down .

Sadly some people will have to upgrade their computers. Yes that's a fact. This appears to be optimized for newer machines and graphics. Way back when in 2008 when I first heard about SL I tried to join and I had to get a better laptop.  I had a decent one at the time but not good enough to get anything but  groaning fans with wild screen flashing to happen. Once I saw what all the fuss was about I stayed and have never left. 

 Is this PBR a huge change? Yes.

In all...things just got way better.

 Thank you Firestorm and thank you Linden Lab!.

 

 

Edited June 22 by Infierna Bloodrose
mis spell

[Luna Bliss]

7 minutes ago, Infierna Bloodrose said:

Draw distance at 240, made sure the reflection stuff was OFF, and headed off to the  (previously)  hardest to render sim I knew of

What sim did you visit?

And thanks for the feedback..

[Infierna Bloodrose]

For me the most difficult place to get a fast rez has been Obscuro Valkyrie's Transylvania.( Yes.. there are *two* Transylvania's) There is  simply a LOT of stuff on Obscuro's sim. It's wonderfully detailed with something around every tiny corner.  Sorry, I don't have a URL handy.

 I'm sure there are **much** harder to load sims! However, this one is very full of things  and was my first choice to test drive the new viewer on. Ob's tends to have all the newest and latest things laid out so its a good test in that way too 

Edited June 22 by Infierna Bloodrose

[Aethelwine]

I went to an event with it yesterday and my FPS went down to around 5. I have an I5-13400F & a RTX 4060. Turning Graphics down to medium (from the one notch from the top it had set itself too) brought back my FPS. That of course turns off shadows so gives me non-ALM vibes but without the benefits of invisprims.

Texture fetching might have been a little slower, but no fetching stalls like some are reporting and worlds of grey.

I went through one region and the wave textures made a psychadelic strobing effect, on my screen that wasn't at all pleasant, something that I have never encountered before. Water mostly looks flat -maybe need to understand EEP settings to fix that.

The jury for me on this remains out, I am not really seeing a visible benefit. My recomendation to anyone installing it is to do a fresh new install of firestorm so you can switch back to the old one easily.

Edited June 22 by Aethelwine