Kimmi Zehetbauer Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 3 hours ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said: Just because it can, doesn't mean it did. You just want another drama thread because your other one slowed down. And hopefully a Mod will come by and slap a lock on this thread. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 3 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said: He didn't say spy on everyone looking for something suspicious to AR. The situation I described didn't involve "spying" -- I specified running across something "pretty obvious." 5 minutes ago, Jaylinbridges said: Both parties were apparently consensual and Adults. One of them did not send the AR because something was forced. I would think Goverance would rather investigate cases where one party was harmed or under stress. What this suggests is that, so long as it is "consensual" and you think that both parties are adults IRL, it shouldn't be ARed? Well, it's pretty much always "consensual" in SL, in most senses. And the vast majority of cases of a*eplay are going to involve RL adults. So . . . do nothing about a*eplay in SL, in effect? The ethics of that aside, you don't think that letting a*eplay here endangers the platform? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 54 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Short girl in ponytails, smacking bubble gum through her braces, wearing a school uniform, bent over teacher's desk while she lisps, "Please sir, I'll remember my homework next week"? There are almost 10K items on the marketplace for "schoolgirl". This net were casting is getting awful large don't you think. Are you sure we just after pedos or are we after everyone who roleplays adult content. This is not an uncommon bedroom roleplay for adults and has nothing at all to do with abusing minors. 59 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: How fortunate then that, if I send in a report and get it wrong, LL's Governance team will have access to the sorts of information that I don't have, and will be able to make an informed decision. I have zero faith in governance's judgement at this point. Trust in that has been slowly burnt to a cinder over the years. 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: I's utterly insane that, on the one hand, you don't want LL using invasive "proactive" policing (and I'm with you on that), but on the other you don't want residents availing themselves of the AR system to report possible or probable violations when they see them. I'll repeat what I've said before: I'll take resident-centred "community policing" any day over a surveillance society or roving bands of LL cops. "resident-centred community policing" is a long way of saying vigilantism. We have had exactly that with security organizations, residents in super hero costumes, forum res-mods, mentors all working together with Linden to exercise grudges. It's been corrupt every single time it has occurred. There are very good human reasons why real world justice isn't left to an in group or worse, a mob making accusations to secret judges with unlimited power. That's the stuff of comic books. 1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Or, do we just shrug and give up on enforcing the ToS entirely? Serious question: what's left if you don't want to settle for either option? Do we just let everything slide because, on the one hand, we don't want LL snooping around, and on the other, we don't want to be snitches? How do you enforce the ToS then, Coffee? How do you "govern" SL so that it doesn't become a known haven for a*eplayers, griefers, etc.? Let's be realistic, Linden have a handful of staff for governance. For the whole of SL. We can't have anything approaching the kind of policing of SL that we might desire. It's going to be spotty, depend entirely on the quality of the report submitted and resources at hand. Seriously, we're doing well if we can get a Linden to show up to clean up after a repeat mainland griefer every 24 hours. One adult club was nuked for weeks, Linden would show up for 2 minutes once a day to remove the junk and leave. It would be back in minutes. The guy would stand in the club announcing his intent to start up again as soon as they were finished. They can not be effective. Beefing up security with automated tooling just casts the net wider and wider, drowns us in false positives that due to staffing, will never get the appeals they deserve. We have automated moderation tooling on reddit, 95% of the stuff that gets held for human review is actually fine. There is no way to remove someone from the platform that has the intent to return and minimal google skills. So why do we bother. All it accomplishes is real harm to those who aren't here to intentfully cause harm in the first place and who worry about the rules. As Ebbe used to say, griefers are actually a good problem to have. They are for the most part newer users (not alts or 4chan) and are a side effect of growth, given the opportunity, some will end up amongst our most skilled creators and viewer developers. A-players are a problem of our own making and the new rules go a long way to moving that definition away from 'role playing an age' to explicitly covering CSAM. Every single actor that has ever lived role plays an age for a living. Hopefully enforcement here will make an effort to separate the two, but honestly, I have little faith at this point. i would like to see an end to perma bans as a governance tool. They don't work when they are needed to work, and cause mental health crisis the rest of the time. I would like to see fully encrypted chats from end to end and in the middle. No logs on servers for Linden to go digging in or be liable for. The information packaged at the time of report is all that should matter. Did you see a crime? Pictures or it didn't happen. I would like to see escalating suspensions starting at 24 hours and doubling with every further infraction. Keep people committed to their actual legitimate SL accounts, whatever the infraction, sooner or later the duration will start to bite and rather than lose everything, they will change behavior. This also allows governance to be seen to be done .. people will openly talk about getting banned and not wanting to get banned again. SL is not a safe Tim Apple friendly pretty bubble and can't be policed like one. It's a wild west creation of the early internet and that's a fundamental part of its character and appeal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 8 minutes ago, Kimmi Zehetbauer said: And hopefully a Mod will come by and slap a lock on this thread. Agreed, this is not healthy for anyone. It is playing on emotions, and more than likely to produce reactive responses than anything. It pits people against one another. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, Coffee Pancake said: There are almost 10K items on the marketplace for "schoolgirl". This net were casting is getting awful large don't you think. Are you sure we just after pedos or are we after everyone who roleplays adult content. This is not an uncommon bedroom roleplay for adults and has nothing at all to do with abusing minors. You're really not getting that "in your best judgement" thing, are you? No one, and certainly not I, has said "AR everyone in a schoolgirl's outfit." My little scenario involved a number of other factors to be considered. 3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: I have zero faith in governance's judgement at this point. Trust in that has been slowly burnt to a cinder over the years. 3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: "resident-centred community policing" is a long way of saying vigilantism. We have had exactly that with security organizations, residents in super hero costumes, forum res-mods, mentors all working together with Linden to exercise grudges. It's been corrupt every single time it has occurred. Right, so . . . do nothing to enforce governance at all? And no one has suggested vigilantes or AR parties. I talked about "running across things." That's a classic instance of a strawman argument. 7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: It's a wild west creation of the early internet and that's a fundamental part of its character and appeal. For who? Yeah, I remember the "good old days" when WU and others ran amok in SL. Fun stuff. Oh, and remember when that German newspaper discovered there was a*eplay here? Really helped the platform, that did. 9 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: SL is not a safe Tim Apple friendly pretty bubble and can't be policed like one. No one has suggested it should be. The whole point of the approach LL has taken to self-administered governance has been to avoid the extremes between becoming a hell hole of griefers and illegal activities on the one hand, and a police state on the other. Your approach, if people listened -- which they won't, fortunately -- would inevitably lead to either the one or the other. Either way, SL dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Well, it's pretty much always "consensual" in SL, in most senses. And the vast majority of cases of a*eplay are going to involve RL adults. So . . . do nothing about a*eplay in SL, in effect? The ethics of that aside, you don't think that letting a*eplay here endangers the platform? IF it is only with consenting adults, in private, it is no different then a married (or partnered) couple in Real Life having age-play in the privacy of their own bedroom. Do you also find this immoral and disgusting? That's your opinion, but not worth creating a police state over. What if the married couple are same gender? Does the gender matter? Age-play has existed in SL for the last 21 years, although I am not sure how it worked with the early stick figures. What endangers the platform is removing residents' freedom of choice, that they STILL have in RL Why come to SL to find a police state? Edited May 25 by Jaylinbridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, Jaylinbridges said: Do you also find this immoral and disgusting? It's not a question of what I find "immoral and disgusting." I very rarely use descriptors like that because they are subjective and ultimately irrelevant. It's a question of what some jurisdictions find illegal. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 7 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Oh, and remember when that German newspaper discovered there was a*eplay here? Really helped the platform, that did. It was faked for the sensationalism and Linden freaked out, went all chicken little on us and got busy inventing new rules. Here we are again, waiting for the rest of the shoes to drop. 10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Either way, SL dies. SL's "lawless period" was the only time in it's entire history that it saw active growth. All aspects of the human condition could be found here, the good, and the bad. The tighter the rules gets, the more of a chilling effect happens because the don't just impact the one specific crimes they are intended to tackle. The only rule that should be changed and hasn't is making this place entirely adult only. No actual minors on the main grid. Educational institutions get their bubble that no one can enter or leave, and that's it. Everywhere else, 18 plus, hard rule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said: t's a question of what some jurisdictions find illegal. No jurisdiction will put two consenting real life adults in jail for a little "please teacher, I'll do anything for an A" bedroom role play. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said: It was faked for the sensationalism and Linden freaked out, went all chicken little on us and got busy inventing new rules. Here we are again, waiting for the rest of the shoes to drop. Whether it was faked or not -- and I have good reason to think a great deal of it wasn't -- the effect was the same, and could well be again. I don't know if you've noticed what's been going on in places like Texas, but things are not getting more permissive for porn out there. 3 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: SL's "lawless period" was the only time in it's entire history that it saw active growth. Correlation, as they say, does not imply causation. There were a lot of factors that contributed to that. It's not 2006 anymore. Most of those really fun people who used to run around making life miserable for the rest of us have either grown up, or found better places to be. Meanwhile, Twitter has become increasingly lawless, and is absolutely bleeding users. Nostalgia for the "good old days" is fine and well, but that crowd isn't going to save SL. And if they did, they'd render saving it pointless in the final analysis anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: No jurisdiction will put two consenting real life adults in jail for a little "please teacher, I'll do anything for an A" bedroom role play. None. No, probably not. And Governance does very little about such RP anyway. The new rules barely address it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 If the OP of this thread can't regulate themselves from posting garbage like this, what makes them think AP'ers will regulate themselves? It's not a false equivalence. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Rhiadra Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 Ok, we're beginning to edge over into "SL should be all about sex" and "Gamers rule!" territory again. I think we've given BJ enough of what she wanted out of this thread, so I'm gone. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 45 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: Correlation, as they say, does not imply causation. There were a lot of factors that contributed to that. Gambling. It was all gambling. People came here to game, dumped a lot of cash hoping to make bank, some did and then found they had all this play fun money and taking it out would create tax problems etc etc. So they spend the money in SL .. which is why SL had a culture of tipping, land investing, and why escorting was huge (and mostly paying for company rather than sex). This is also what dragged all the different sub cultures together and had goreans sat next to furries. The gambling was banned and the growth halted. We started the slow decline, voice killed the casual escort scene as suddenly, gender really mattered, and we have been on a downward slider ever since. Coasting from the incredible social momentum and wealth built up in those first few years. SL took off like a rocket, the grid was down every few days because it couldn't handle the numbers and every week it got worse and worse. The early growth was insane and then it stopped. dead. it's not a mystery. There aren't lots of factors. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said: Gambling. It was all gambling. Breedables were also in the picture. New concept in SL, some auction owners, large breeders and creators made millions in $L. A few moved to other countries to avoid the tax consequences of cashing out and paying taxes. L$100K and L$50K prices for a rare breedable was common when it all started. Owning 10 full regions was also possible, from the profits. Edited May 25 by Jaylinbridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 5 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: We have no way to know if this may or may not be real, if it happened, or even if those involved are breaking any rules when they do hook up. Speculation about apparent potential crimes is not evidence or proof of crimes, AP or otherwise. Playing cop and reporting each other is a very short road to no where good. Even if it wasn't real, (which it was), even if i made it up (which I didn't) , it happens, and it is a legitimate topic for discussion. Do we report every single suspicious activity to our masters? Or do we just mind our own business. If it was in MY group, I'd have banned them, if they were on my land, I'd have banned them I'm not LL's police force. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: BJ obviously thought it was a case of a*eplay, assuming it did even happen. Playing cop, as you put it, is the only way of preventing SL from becoming a hell hole of illegal, shady, or toxic crap, which would eventually result in SL being abandoned by most residents or shut down by someone else. How else exactly do you think we should respond to this sort of thing? Who will stop it if we don't? And if we don't, you are leaving LL with no alternative but instituting the kind of invasive "proactive measures" you most fear. Winking at illegality when we see it isn't doing SL or any of us any favours. Perhaps I should post the conversation, with names taken out of course, you can decide for yourself if it was setting up for some AP, of course, you'll just say I made it all up anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said: You know who could be sure? Governance. But apparently they'd never know if you have your way? If they can ban two people for AP in two different sims for a private IM because one was in their child form as Coffee described in a different thread, they already monitor everything, so whats the big deal. Do you get a reward for being a snitch? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 6 hours ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: A fairly innocent post, a response from someone interested, then slightly more detailed, another reply, and then silence. I assume they took it to IM, or maybe to a secret skybox in the sky. She was obviously under 18 in her profile pic, he was a mature man Because people look like their profile picture every minute they're in Second Life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 [2024/05/24 18:04] aaaaaaaaa: Hi uncle, mom and dad are traveling can i sleep at your place tonight? [2024/05/24 18:06] bbbbbbbb: only if you sleep naked [2024/05/24 18:07] aaaaaaaaa: oh you have seen me nakies before »giggles [2024/05/24 18:07] bbbbbbbbb: when?? I dont spy on you dear [2024/05/24 18:08] aaaaaaaaaa: oh when you took care of me when mom and dad were busy, we played at your pool nakies [2024/05/24 18:25] bbbbbbbbb: my memory is off I think What do you think? innocent banter, or setting up for some AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 (edited) 33 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said: What do you think? innocent banter, or setting up for some AP Hmmm, that's a tough one. They should have taken that to IM. (Chances are they were both 50 year old men in RL too) Edited May 25 by Jaylinbridges 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 6 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said: Playing cop and reporting each other is a very short road to no where good. Reporting a crime is a good thing. RL and SL. The law can't be everywhere where a crime takes place. Reporting for drama purposes and in the wrong place, like this OP, not so much IMHO. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said: Gambling. It was all gambling. People came here to game, dumped a lot of cash hoping to make bank, some did and then found they had all this play fun money and taking it out would create tax problems etc etc. So they spend the money in SL .. which is why SL had a culture of tipping, land investing, and why escorting was huge (and mostly paying for company rather than sex). This is also what dragged all the different sub cultures together and had goreans sat next to furries. The gambling was banned and the growth halted. We started the slow decline, voice killed the casual escort scene as suddenly, gender really mattered, and we have been on a downward slider ever since. Coasting from the incredible social momentum and wealth built up in those first few years. SL took off like a rocket, the grid was down every few days because it couldn't handle the numbers and every week it got worse and worse. The early growth was insane and then it stopped. dead. it's not a mystery. There aren't lots of factors. Ya, I remember I was dancing back then and making a really good income in here. I know after gambling went away, my income dropped to around half of what I was making.. It was hard times I tell ya. I think I was only making like around 65k for around four hours of work a night. I was like, What the hell is happening?!! \o/ That was still good money, but you had to be at a top end club to make it. I would only get around 7k for the same amount of time in a smaller less popular club. When the gamblers were here, it was easy money. There wasn't near the amount of bot houses back then either.. SL was made of PEOPLE!! \o/ hehehe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BilliJo Aldrin Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 36 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: Reporting a crime is a good thing. RL and SL. The law can't be everywhere where a crime takes place. Reporting for drama purposes and in the wrong place, like this OP, not so much IMHO. well gee, I didn’t report it did I? I was offering the incident as an example of how banned AP sets up, and how it is impossible to stop it. People prefer to respond by saying oh this just drama for the forums. It’s all good though, I have been around forums since before SL even existed. I know how and why some respondants play the games they play, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said: I know after gambling went away, my income dropped to around half of what I was making.. Same with DJ tips and hostess tips. Every time the Moral Minority makes new rules to piss people off, more residents have less money from SL jobs. My income will decrease because some patrons worked in Adult regions that are now dying or dead. No income, no tips from them. Same thing with breedables. Take away the money supply and the economy dies. It really feels like a slow death in SL. I am not one to claim the sky is falling, and never have. But I have been working in SL for 14 years, and I can follow long term trends. I hope all those new mobile phone users that SL thinks is their future, come loaded with their parents cash. Edited May 25 by Jaylinbridges 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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