Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Love Zhaoying]

There's a "thing" where "older" people may judge "younger people" as "even younger" due to cultural shifts, the time that's past since they were that age, etc.

There's also the "RL" issue when very young people are "made up on purpose" to appear older, but generally fail and instead look inappropriately sexualized, etc.  (Think "Glamor Shots" for young girls, "Beauty Pageants" for pre-teens, etc.)  I think this happens in SL a lot, but people fail to see it in their own avatar.

 

[Kaia Sachin]

5 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Now everyone (except the predators… nothing has changed for them) has to walk on eggshells lest they violate the new “lets keep children safe” rules

The good thing about the changes is that the offenders to whom the new TOS is aimed at will likely now become suspicious that the people soliciting them via direct message in order to engage in activities that are against the TOS may actually be undercover agents seeking to catch them in the act, which will hopefully make them more wary of going that route.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

21 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

 

Oh, I think I missed this. And Arielle!!! I'll have no more of this goth slander. 😂 There used to be 60+ goths and punks in the clubs I went to in my 20s. My love of goth stuffs surely ain't going anywhere now that I'm older, just as theirs didn't. You stop dat, lmao.

At any rate, there's no point debating piercings/tats as BilliJo likely won't be adopting those (unless she wants to, at which point I have suggestionnnnnns), but yeah - 16 year olds get them. 42 year olds get them. 60 year olds get them. Proves nothing about age whatsoever.

I dont do tats, they interfere with my freckles, thats why I never wear appliers either, im a fitmesh fanatic

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

Maybe you are one of them then... I see people all over the place, but there are a lot of 7 to 8 feet tall people.  Just going to shopping events I can see adult looking avatars from like 5 feet to 8 feet sometimes and they look weird near eachother, its all a mess.

These were taken today.  The one on the left is my usual height of 5'9".  Never been questioned about my age.  The one on the right is my avatar at 5'4".  Not really that big of a visual difference.  So, if all one is concerned with is what the little numbers say on the edit window, that's not really a valid reason to AR anyone.  I've even worn that hair in adult places.   Note, my avatar is pretty short compared to the bar top in both pictures.

[Madi Melodious]

Modesty panels for everyone! Get out the blow torches boys, were back in business!

While we are at it, we should also ban all size avatars from adult lands.  It's the only way to be safe. 

Yes, the above post is nothing but a joke, and is clearly intended as a joke.  If you do not think it's funny, you can probably buy a sense of humor on the marketplace.  

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Just now, Kaia Sachin said:

The good thing about the changes is that the offenders to whom the new TOS is aimed at will likely now become suspicious that the people soliciting them via direct message in order to engage in activities that are against the TOS may actually be undercover agents seeking to catch them in the act, which will hopefully make them more wary of going that route.

have you, or anyone else, ever considered these predators (they play both roles by the way, adult and child) meet each other someplace other than Second Life and only log in to complete their planned activities?

[Rowan Amore]

4 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

Modesty panels for everyone! Get out the blow torches boys, were back in business!

While we are at it, we should also ban all size avatars from adult lands.  It's the only way to be safe. 

Yes, the above post is nothing but a joke, and is clearly intended as a joke.  If you do not think it's funny, you can probably buy a sense of humor on the marketplace.  

Second Life Marketplace - Sense Of Humor

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

These were taken today.  The one on the left is my usual height of 5'9".  Never been questioned about my age.  The one on the right is my avatar at 5'4".  Not really that big of a visual difference.  So, if all one is concerned with is what the little numbers say on the edit window, that's not really a valid reason to AR anyone.  I've even worn that hair in adult places.   Note, my avatar is pretty short compared to the bar top in both pictures.

are you serious? you defo look like a child. stay out of A sims for sure 😂

[Charlemagne Allen]

Is it 2012 again?

[Innula Zenovka]

31 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

up until the new TOS i came out, I lived my life, children lived their lives and predators were caught and banned.

Now everyone (except the predators… nothing has changed for them) has to walk on eggshells lest they violate the new “lets keep children safe” rules

What, specifically, has changed for you?   Do you think there's any serious risk of someone seeing your avatar and saying "No way she's 18"?

[Arielle Popstar]

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I was able to envision the face without all the piercings and saw: a young facial shape, with absolutely no indication of "age" (wrinkles, makeup, features, etc.). The face would have looked "right" if on an intentionally young avatar.  

I didn't do that for that photo though it would have been a good idea to have done so. I just looked at the overall impression in that case and thought it were too many piercings.

Quote

 

Examples of facial things that makes people look "older" in RL:

- Larger ears and noses:  Both ears and noses keep growing through life.  If someone has "smaller" ("proportionate") nose and ears, then that makes them look "younger".

- Eye "droop"

- Wrinkles

- Hairline (depending on style, tradition, etc.) - especially for men

 

Good point on those characteristics though in my case of a gender fluid to female, the predominantly male attributes I don't pay enough attention to in others. And of course one is limited to with a given mesh rigging.

Quote

If I see a face with "small nose and ears" (whether "cartoonish or not"), that's my first subconscious clue. The others are more subtle unless you're looking for them.

My nose is usually on the smaller side and the ears are something I wish I could make a little smaller  but often can't and that is not even trying to be younger then 18.

 

24 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Oh, I think I missed this. And Arielle!!! I'll have no more of this goth slander. 😂 There used to be 60+ goths and punks in the clubs I went to in my 20s. My love of goth stuffs surely ain't going anywhere now that I'm older, just as theirs didn't. You stop dat, lmao.

At any rate, there's no point debating piercings/tats as BilliJo likely won't be adopting those (unless she wants to, at which point I have suggestionnnnnns), but yeah - 16 year olds get them. 42 year olds get them. 60 year olds get them. Proves nothing about age whatsoever.

Laughs at the Goth slander. No, I probably should and have thought I should make up a couple of outfits with a goth theme, it is just that my progress to makeup, jewelry and piercings has been slow. In some ways I chalk it up to the example of my partner who was minimalistic in her use of it though of late has seen more inclusion though still not big on piercings. I guess I am the same as I have never done it in R/L so I don't think of it though I admire it in others if tastefully done and somewhat low key.

Just chatting about it will probably cause me to evolve and pay more attention to it in future.

[Arielle Popstar]

32 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

Maybe you are one of them then... I see people all over the place, but there are a lot of 7 to 8 feet tall people.  Just going to shopping events I can see adult looking avatars from like 5 feet to 8 feet sometimes and they look weird near eachother, its all a mess.

Quite often though I see some of the supposedly really tall people wearing high platforms or hovering a foot above the ground though they don't realize it till I point it out to them in IM.

[Madi Melodious]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Quite often though I see some of the supposedly really tall people wearing high platforms or hovering a foot above the ground though they don't realize it till I point it out to them in IM.

My account is almost 11 years old so I'm trying to pass for a 11 year old in world.  I'm aging up my avatar with each year, yes she is growing up in world.   In flats or sneakers I look between 11 and 12, depending on what hair I'm using.  Depending on what hair I have on I can look between 8 and 12.    I have a pair of boots that if I put on people think I'm 19 or older simply because I'm taller.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

12 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Laughs at the Goth slander. No, I probably should and have thought I should make up a couple of outfits with a goth theme, it is just that my progress to makeup, jewelry and piercings has been slow. In some ways I chalk it up to the example of my partner who was minimalistic in her use of it though of late has seen more inclusion though still not big on piercings. I guess I am the same as I have never done it in R/L so I don't think of it though I admire it in others if tastefully done and somewhat low key.

Just chatting about it will probably cause me to evolve and pay more attention to it in future.

Honestly, I used to stick to goth outfits a lot more faithfully in pre-mesh days. Some of the flexi gowns were soooooo pretty! Once things went full mesh, though, I've fallen off that. I do still rock gowns, but I favor much slimmer evening wear. With the way mesh dresses and skirts flip up over our heads when we walk (ugh, don't get me started on that), it's just harder to make those large gowns work. I'll still wear one on occasion, but meeeeeeh.

As for piercings, it's funny because I don't have ANY (and no tats either) in RL, but that's solely because I've got no pain tolerance, lol. I'm the most squeamish baby ever. If not for that, I would have a face and head full of piercings. In fact, I have thing for body modification and used to read BME quite a lot back in the day - to the point of wanting full body tats and transdermal and subdermal implants, but I knew I'd never realistically survive that mess if it took me until 18 years old to brave Claire's for my first pair of normal earrings done with a stupid piercing gun. 🤣 

I got as far as walking into a tattoo shop and requesting an armband that quickly progressed into "okay, so let's tattoo this entire tarot card design on your back, for a start..." and then chickened out. So guess what? I do that here! And yes, I admit, I'm a bit over the top with it (up to about 12 or 13 rings and studs in my face with another dozen or so in my ears), but that's pretty much how I'd look in RL if I weren't so squeamish. 

As for age, even combined with height and everything else, I doubt that contributes much to it in either direction, except it's highly, highly unlikely a 10-year-old will have a face full of metal and tattoos all over, so there's that, I suppose. 

[AnthonyJoanne]

There is literally no winning this.

Let's boil it down to the absolute nitty gritty shall we?

Let's say that LL come out with a cut and dried definition of what constitutes a child avatar. Let's hypothesise that it is SO detailed that there can be zero debate if any given avatar is or is not a child.

The next thing we'd see is a 200 page thread of people complaining about that definition.

We'd see page after page about edge cases.

And we'd see an endless litany of people saying that they felt <sad/mad/attacked/betrayed/etc> because <insert reasons>.

Let's also note that by any sane metric, it's literally impossible to write such a definition because there is ALWAYS going to be someone on the borderline.

No matter what LL come up with, someone is going to swear black and blue that it's the start of the next purge.

At this point the only way to satisfy the people who are currently complaining is to roll back the TOS change, and that will make a whole bunch (a MUCH LARGER bunch) complain that LL are encouraging something that is universally condemned across the civilised world.

To the poor mole(s) who are having to deal with this ... be brave, be strong, and I'd demand a raise if I were you! 😛

Edited May 9 by AnthonyJoanne
typo

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As for age, even combined with height and everything else, I doubt that contributes much to it in either direction, except it's highly, highly unlikely a 10-year-old will have a face full of metal and tattoos all over, so there's that, I suppose. 

In RL at least. 🙂

RL teens can also wear "fake" piercings and tattoos..

Again in RL, teens shop at places like "Hot Topic" for a "goth look".

 

[Codex Alpha]

@AnthonyJoanne Yep, hence:

Q: How do you define a child avatar?

A: We are relying on the community to use their best judgment to determine if they are using a child avatar or not. Creating a list of specifications for something like this can be a slippery slope, and we certainly don’t want to give out directions on how to circumvent any policies. If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

As mentioned in other Q&As, general physical characteristics that apply to adults as well as children such as avatar height, being of slim or petite build, gender identity (such as non-binary or gender non-conforming), or ethnicity are not sole or intrinsic qualities that might qualify an avatar as a child avatar.

[Madi Melodious]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In RL at least. 🙂

RL teens can also wear "fake" piercings and tattoos..

Again in RL, teens shop at places like "Hot Topic" for a "goth look".

 

The local schools around me banned those for elementary and middle school. 

In world I wear a heart shaped belly perching.    If anyone asked I just said it was a stick on like the local kids were wearing.  

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In RL at least. 🙂

RL teens can also wear "fake" piercings and tattoos..

Again in RL, teens shop at places like "Hot Topic" for a "goth look".

Wat. I was talking about SL. And lol at Hot Topic. Not going there, though.

Unless you've got some reason to believe child avatars are rockin' Erik Sprague looks in SL, I wouldn't agree that piercings and tattoos are popular among people roleplaying pre-teens here.

In the older teens and above crowd, I don't think it contributes much to an avatar's age, though.

[Love Zhaoying]

I think it may be more of a "pit trap" than a "snare trap".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapping_pit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapping#Snares

 

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

In RL at least. 🙂

RL teens can also wear "fake" piercings and tattoos..

Again in RL, teens shop at places like "Hot Topic" for a "goth look".

Wat. I was talking about SL. And lol at Hot Topic. Not going there, though.

Unless you've got some reason to believe child avatars are rockin' Erik Sprague looks in SL, I wouldn't agree that piercings and tattoos are popular among people roleplaying pre-teens here.

In the older teens and above crowd, I don't think it contributes much to an avatar's age, though.

Yes, yes.

I was explaining "exactly why" I think someone looks younger, by using the RL comparison in my explanation.

🙂

Hard to explain, I know! 

Because, it's really all based on "opinion". 

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

In the older teens and above crowd, I don't think it contributes much to an avatar's age, though.

This sounds, on the surface, like you are agreeing with me.  My point being, I don't think the piercings and stuff make a person look much older, successfully, to me personally. If they look young, they look young.

Interesting to me though, in the pictures thread (Blush's new thread), I've seen a few where hairstyle makes a LOT of difference.  "Really long/full" hair made an avatar appear older. "Really short" hair in a specific style also appeared to be an "older style".

Edited May 9 by Love Zhaoying

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

This sounds, on the surface, like you are agreeing with me.  My point being, I don't think the piercings and stuff make a person look much older, successfully, to me personally. If they look young, they look young.

Yeah. I don't think people put that stuff on their avatar to intentionally age them up or down at all. It's more a question of "do I like piercings/tats or nah?" I would be surprised if age entered into the thought process at all.

 

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Interesting to me though, in the pictures thread (Blush's new thread), I've see a few where hairstyle makes a LOT of difference.  "Really long/full" hair made an avatar appear older. "Really short" hair in a specific style also appeared to be an "older style".

Hair is one of those weird things that may or may not contribute to an avatar's age. I have a ton of styles that could go either way based on the rest of the look. On its own, meaningless, just like height.

People do seem to get weirdly caught up on things like ponytails, which is interesting to me. Makes me wonder what they'd think of Bantu knots (worn both by children and adults). Cultural hairstyles almost never enter into convos like that.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

People do seem to get weirdly caught up on things like ponytails, which is interesting to me. Makes me wonder what they'd think of Bantu knots (worn both by children and adults). Cultural hairstyles almost never enter into convos like that.

Yeah, I REALLY regret saying "ponytails" yesterday, as I meant "pigtails" but somehow "ponytails" stuck with a few people (not necessarily you, comments in another thread).

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Makes me wonder what they'd think of Bantu knots (worn both by children and adults). Cultural hairstyles almost never enter into convos like that.

Saw a great series of pics (on a TikTok) yesterday of hairstyles in different African countries pre-colonization.  They were really, really cool. I had seen a few before but not all of them.

 

[Midnoot]

1 hour ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'd honestly like to know where all these giants, men and women, are hiding out.  I just don't see it.

 

Not a single day goes by where I don't see some maxed out height male , often accompanied by a gf who's also unnaturally elastic in an attempt to not look like a child next to her boi.