Will The New TOS on Child Avatars Ensnare Short Adults?

[Innula Zenovka]

14 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

see, to be safe, short adults should avoid places where they could be ARed. I guess we are collateral damage.

We had to destroy the village to save it.

No, people who are at serious risk of being mistaken for under-18 should avoid places like that.

I really don't see what you're worried about.   The FAQ say

   

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 Q: Does the height or gender of my avatar define it as a child avatar?
A: No. We review many factors from an Abuse Report to come to a final conclusion, and height or gender alone are not grounds for Governance action.

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If a reasonable person would look at the features of your avatar and consider it underage, we would recommend not engaging in adult activities on that account. Apart from considering the avatar's appearance, the team considers various other factors, such as the purpose for which the avatar is being used.

As mentioned in other Q&As, general physical characteristics that apply to adults as well as children such as avatar height, being of slim or petite build, gender identity (such as non-binary or gender non-conforming), or ethnicity are not sole or intrinsic qualities that might qualify an avatar as a child avatar.

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Q: Will Residents be immediately terminated if it is determined they are violating any part of the new policy?
A: Not all violations of the policy will result in an immediate termination. Depending upon the nature and severity of the violation, Governance has a suspension tree that is utilized to make attempts to educate the Resident first. However, if those attempts fail and the behavior is continued, it will result in termination. For the more severe offenses, the immediate action will still be to terminate their access to Second Life.

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We investigate every report for sexualized ***** and rely on our thorough investigative process to both validate and prove or disprove the allegations submitted. If the evidence and backing investigation do not yield multiple, verifiable points of proof on an allegation, then no action may be taken

How you turn that into "to be safe, short adults should avoid places where they could be ARed" is beyond me.

However, if you're really that worried, and can't take any reassurance from what the policy and FAQ say, then the only way to set your mind at rest would seem to be to change your avatar or avoid certain places or both.   

What specific wording, other than "there are no restrictions whatsoever on the activities of child avatars," would put your mind at rest? 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I don't think Goths that add a lot of piercings, convincingly "add age" to their avatar.

It ends up looking like a young avatar with piercings.

Same with tattoos.

I'm not being "critical", just giving my honest opinion!

I don't think anyone adds piercings or tats to age an avatar considering many people get piercings and tattoos before they hit full-time working age where you basically have to hide all that to avoid negatively impacting the company's image (massive eyeroll).

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Hey, I resemble that remark! Not the wannabe part, tho.  😆

Is this a serious request, though? Aging up avatars is something I do quite often just given the fact that base heads always seem to start in the 20s. Sigh.

Nahi was only meaning one in particular who posted some photos which I went over and looked for tweaks I could make for a younger look. One photo in particular that I would then consider borderline age. It would only have required a brow change, different lipstick, mouth set to a smile and it would have taken a few apparent years off. Clothing changes to a lighter colours would have taken even more off and no longer something you'd be afraid off to run into in a dark alley!

[Codex Alpha]

5 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

No, people who are at serious risk of being mistaken for under-18 should avoid places like that.

I really don't see what you're worried about.   The FAQ say

The problem really, with 1000s of posts on this, people are not reading these documents, and are clicking 'yes' and agreeing with the terms when they sign in to Second Life.

Those that do, are then claiming that all the words used are confusing, or can be interpreted differently.

Others are trying to find loopholes, and skirting around the boundaries.

Others don't know what child-like features are, or what defines the average behaviours and clothing styles and accessories of different ages.

Is LL really going to have to spell it out any further?

I guess most will just have to 'use their best judgement' - LL can't hold people's hands when they don't even bother to read things, so I guess they will have to find out on their own through trial and error - and some accounts will be lost possibly.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I don't think anyone adds piercings or tats to age an avatar considering many people get piercings and tattoos before they hit full-time working age where you basically have to hide all that to avoid negatively impacting the company's image (massive eyeroll).

I'm probably thinking of one user (no offense at all!) who asked their age but had many piercings and tattoos. I personally thought they looked VERY young!

[Bree Giffen]

Is there an underage dog in this pic?

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Keeping in mind I'm 6'6" on a day without massive heels and any need to be taller, avatar height isn't something I would ever even look at to begin with. Tall, medium, short - I can't see that being the sole indicator of anything. Unless your avatar is designed to be a toddler and showing up somewhere inappropriate, it's just not that serious.

That said, it would help if you told us (if you haven't already - it's possible I missed it) what age range you're targeting. If you're concerned you look too young, you can age up easily without having to touch your base avatar. I find working with photo references very helpful when I'm making an avatar in a certain age range (for both face/body shaping and fashion/accessorizing).

Im not targeting any range except that I’m over 18. thats the beauty of second life, your avatar never has to age.

I state in my profile that i am 39 in rl

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Is there an underage dog in this pic?

that big dog is looking at the small one kinda lustfully

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Nahi was only meaning one in particular who posted some photos which I went over and looked for tweaks I could make for a younger look. One photo in particular that I would then consider borderline age. It would only have required a brow change, different lipstick, mouth set to a smile and it would have taken a few apparent years off. Clothing changes to a lighter colours would have taken even more off and no longer something you'd be afraid off to run into in a dark alley!

Lol, actually to be serious for a second, you did hit on some of the common tricks I use. Brow shape can be HUGE when aging up or down. Skin detail layers and materials, too. Makeup. Fashion very obviously (though I still rock very dark colors because I love those). Accessories like jewelry/held items. Hair can help sometimes as a finishing touch. Overall face shape does make a huge difference, too (for the photo references I use, they all have very prominent cheeks, and I find mimicking that does help quite a bit).

I generally start with a photo reference in their 50s and age them down into their 30s. For some reason, that tends to work a lot better for me than starting with a photo of someone who is about 30 years old. Just personal preference.

I did grab a head with built-in wrinkles and skin effects and a ton of material styles that I adoooore, but I'm saving it to make some 60+ male and female fantasy avatars.

[Arielle Popstar]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm probably thinking of one user (no offense at all!) who asked their age but had many piercings and tattoos. I personally thought they looked VERY young!

Interesting as I looked at that same picture and thought to myself it was the look of an over the hill Goth fan. Much like you see old hippies or a wannabe flower child who still dresses the part when they are over 40.

Edited May 9 by Arielle Popstar
spelling

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Bree Giffen said:

Is there an underage dog in this pic?

Yes, the larger dog is just a puppy. You can tell.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

7 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

The problem really, with 1000s of posts on this, people are not reading these documents, and are clicking 'yes' and agreeing with the terms when they sign in to Second Life.

Those that do, are then claiming that all the words used are confusing, or can be interpreted differently.

Others are trying to find loopholes, and skirting around the boundaries.

Others don't know what child-like features are, or what defines the average behaviours and clothing styles and accessories of different ages.

Is LL really going to have to spell it out any further?

I guess most will just have to 'use their best judgement' - LL can't hold people's hands when they don't even bother to read things, so I guess they will have to find out on their own through trial and error - and some accounts will be lost possibly.

I know exactly what children look like, and I look at myself and  I see an adult. But im not gonna AR myself am I?

I really dont know what others will think.

As for reading the TOS, nobody reads them, yeah yeah whatever, click accept and log in

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Interesting as I looked at that same picture and thought to myself it was the look of an over the hill Goth fan, over. Much like you see old hippies or a wannabe flower child who still dresses the part when they are over 40.

I was able to envision the face without all the piercings and saw: a young facial shape, with absolutely no indication of "age" (wrinkles, makeup, features, etc.). The face would have looked "right" if on an intentionally young avatar.  

Examples of facial things that makes people look "older" in RL:

- Larger ears and noses:  Both ears and noses keep growing through life.  If someone has "smaller" ("proportionate") nose and ears, then that makes them look "younger".

- Eye "droop"

- Wrinkles

- Hairline (depending on style, tradition, etc.) - especially for men

If I see a face with "small nose and ears" (whether "cartoonish or not"), that's my first subconscious clue. The others are more subtle unless you're looking for them.

 

[brodiac90]

LL really does not care about borderline cases where someone who is 16-17 could be 18-19, and if they do it's not their primary concern. Someone previously mentioned they have worked in the legal system and that prosecution only takes cases forward where a jury could look at an image of a child and go - yep no one in their right mind could think they're 18. 

What LL is rightfully terrified about is avatars my age appearing in images. Pictures where it is very obvious that it is a child. If I go into adult land, and or don't wear a modesty layer and or put myself in a situation where nudity is present and expected, then I'm going to get AR'ed and banned - rightfully so. Go straight to jail, do not pass go, do not collect £200. 

Older teens / shorter adults will not face the same sort of consequences, if they're AR'ed at all. LL have already mentioned they use a severity tree to determine what the right action should be. In those circumstances I very much suspect it would be education, not perm bans with no warning.  

 

Edited May 9 by brodiac90

[BilliJo Aldrin]

21 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

No, people who are at serious risk of being mistaken for under-18 should avoid places like that.

I really don't see what you're worried about.   The FAQ say

   

How you turn that into "to be safe, short adults should avoid places where they could be ARed" is beyond me.

However, if you're really that worried, and can't take any reassurance from what the policy and FAQ say, then the only way to set your mind at rest would seem to be to change your avatar or avoid certain places or both.   

What specific wording, other than "there are no restrictions whatsoever on the activities of child avatars," would put your mind at rest? 

up until the new TOS i came out, I lived my life, children lived their lives and predators were caught and banned.

Now everyone (except the predators… nothing has changed for them) has to walk on eggshells lest they violate the new “lets keep children safe” rules

[Rowan Amore]

I'd honestly like to know where all these giants, men and women, are hiding out.  I just don't see it.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm probably thinking of one user (no offense at all!) who asked their age but had many piercings and tattoos. I personally thought they looked VERY young!

 

2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Interesting as I looked at that same picture and thought to myself it was the look of an over the hill Goth fan, over. Much like you see old hippies or a wannabe flower child who still dresses the part when they are over 40.

Oh, I think I missed this. And Arielle!!! I'll have no more of this goth slander. 😂 There used to be 60+ goths and punks in the clubs I went to in my 20s. My love of goth stuffs surely ain't going anywhere now that I'm older, just as theirs didn't. You stop dat, lmao.

At any rate, there's no point debating piercings/tats as BilliJo likely won't be adopting those (unless she wants to, at which point I have suggestionnnnnns), but yeah - 16 year olds get them. 42 year olds get them. 60 year olds get them. Proves nothing about age whatsoever.

[Arielle Popstar]

3 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Lol, actually to be serious for a second, you did hit on some of the common tricks I use. Brow shape can be HUGE when aging up or down. Skin detail layers and materials, too. Makeup. Fashion very obviously (though I still rock very dark colors because I love those). Accessories like jewelry/held items. Hair can help sometimes as a finishing touch. Overall face shape does make a huge difference, too (for the photo references I use, they all have very prominent cheeks, and I find mimicking that does help quite a bit).

I generally start with a photo reference in their 50s and age them down into their 30s. For some reason, that tends to work a lot better for me than starting with a photo of someone who is about 30 years old. Just personal preference.

I did grab a head with built-in wrinkles and skin effects and a ton of material styles that I adoooore, but I'm saving it to make some 60+ male and female fantasy avatars.

I had/have the advantage of having a virtual partner of 15 years who is a lifelong clothing and hair stylist who still follows fashion magazines locally (UK) and abroad. Though she always would let me do my own thing, she would occasionally point out little things if I got too far off track and though my look is different from hers, she is still a great example of the little changes that make big differences.

As a bit of a lark we went through some of my outfits last night and each gave our opinions as to age and it was interesting how different we each perceived some looks to be. Like you say, little changes can make a big difference but we don't all see it the same.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

15 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Im not targeting any range except that I’m over 18. thats the beauty of second life, your avatar never has to age.

I state in my profile that i am 39 in rl

Okay so for just general over 18, there's stuff you could do to emphasize that if you wanted to, but I think you'd be fine as is. I wouldn't worry about it.

I could nitpick things, but that's just me being overly picky. Like, there are better bunny ears on the market - bento, that animate and come with a tail that responds to your AO so it bounces and twitches when you walk/run and looks SO CUTE OMG. 😄

[Blush Bravin]

1 hour ago, Kaia Sachin said:

True. This is me next to an average height male avatar. I'm 5'6" (my real life height).

 

You look fine, though you could be in your late teens, which most females have reached their full adult height be then. But he looks like a giant to me.  Of course I really can't tell without some reference material in the background. But since you said your height I'm using that as reference.

[Aya Sweetheart]

12 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'd honestly like to know where all these giants, men and women, are hiding out.  I just don't see it.

 

Maybe you are one of them then... I see people all over the place, but there are a lot of 7 to 8 feet tall people.  Just going to shopping events I can see adult looking avatars from like 5 feet to 8 feet sometimes and they look weird near eachother, its all a mess.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

2 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

But since you said your height I'm using that as reference.

Since the picture of her avatar was posted earlier without the guy, and both are seen against a black background. that would be foolish.

She's just stuck her pic and a pic of some guy side by side on a black background, there is no actual reliable scale check in that picture, we don't even know if the size of the guy is original or faked.

 

Meaningless comparison for propaganda purposes.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

2 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

Maybe you are one of them then... I see people all over the place, but there are a lot of 7 to 8 feet tall people.  Just going to shopping events I can see adult looking avatars from like 5 feet to 8 feet sometimes and they look weird near eachother, its all a mess.

giants look normal height to other giants, and then when a realistic height avi walks in its like hey who let the kid in, except the pervy guys that go mmmm who let the kid in

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I had/have the advantage of having a virtual partner of 15 years who is a lifelong clothing and hair stylist who still follows fashion magazines locally (UK) and abroad. Though she always would let me do my own thing, she would occasionally point out little things if I got too far off track and though my look is different from hers, she is still a great example of the little changes that make big differences.

As a bit of a lark we went through some of my outfits last night and each gave our opinions as to age and it was interesting how different we each perceived some looks to be. Like you say, little changes can make a big difference but we don't all see it the same.

Agree! And honestly, I don't think you'll ever be able to gather a group of people in one room and all magically agree on what age someone (or their avatar) is. It's just way too subjective. My face every time Paul Rudd trends on his birthday, for instance. To me, that man never ages.

Small details do work wonders generally, but we all know people can miss stuff like that, too.

I agree with what @brodiac90 said - governance is going to be looking for very obvious cases. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

20 minutes ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

up until the new TOS i came out, I lived my life, children lived their lives and predators were caught and banned.

Now everyone (except the predators… nothing has changed for them) has to walk on eggshells lest they violate the new “lets keep children safe” rules

The policy on underage-looking avatars and sexual activity hasn't changed a tiny bit. From what you've said about how you "lived your life," if anyone in a position of authority thought you looked underage you would have been banned already.

And you haven't.