The new ToS and something I don't think was taken into consideration by LL.

[MissSweetViolet]

I think we all know that people who skirt the line use adult bodies, but a couple of comments in the other thread reminded me of something today that I didn't even think of, and I don't think anyone at LL did ether. It's that there are adult bodies that can go much younger then the skirting the age crowd.

What I remember was an avatar I had originally made when I had contemplated joining the Mischief Managed RP about 2 years ago. In order to start there, one requirement is that if your starting at the youngest grade they offer, is that the avatar would be 11. So I created an avatar to fit, using Maitreya, because at the time, it was the avatar I had with the most clothing to fit the strict dress code.https://mischiefmanagedsl.net/school-dresscode/ I didn't end up joining the RP cause I realized I didn't have time to do it.

Luckily still found the avatar in a folder [I actually thought I had deleted her]. But it brings up a good point that I hadn't even thought of till now.

This is said 11 year old avatar. Nothing about her skirts this policy, she would and should fall under it pretty clear. But If I can easily go 11 with an adult body, how does LL plan to enforce the modesty layer if my understanding about needing it built in to the body is correct, for those who use adult bodies for younger avatars. It seems absolutely absurd and flat out uncalled for to insist adult bodies have a built in layer too.

Now if this just needs to be built into the the skin as many have suggested, or a BoM layer will suffice, then it removes the issue entirely of course. But this is why this layer NEEDS clarification! I will also add some of the important questions that have come up in the other thread too, minus the age appearance one, I think LL has over 100 pages of that they can go through for opinions.

Does the layer need to be built into the body, will a layer built into an avatar skin be good enough, can BoM underwear be counted as compiling?

Will there be a difference regarding the gender of the avatar?

Does the age the avatar in question dictate what the layer should look like? [I'd argue it should since a teen vs a 5 year is not the same, especially in regard to gender, especially at older ages.]

Do non human avatars need a layer too?

The majority of mainstream avatars for kids are BoM just like adult bodies, so how do all the BoM layers [skins, tattoos, clothing, etc] fall into this?

What about needing to alpha for mesh clothing? Just like adults, kid clothing doesn't always fit right and needs an alpha layer or alpha from the hud, is using an alpha layer for this going to make any kid avatar trying to get mesh clothing to fit non compliant since you said alpha was not good enough? How does this work?

Are petite avatars like this considered child avatars? https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/PETITES-Female-Elves-tiny-mesh-avatars-Fallen-Gods-Inc/3117582

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Yabusaka-Petite-3-Female-Mesh-Avatar/10797589

Edited May 6 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections. Topic Additions.

[Arielle Popstar]

Would think Maitreya might update LaraX that is non-bom and no-applier that just uses the included skins with the modesty layer. Hopefully free.

[MissSweetViolet]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Would think Maitreya might update LaraX that is non-bom and no-applier that just uses the included skins with the modesty layer. Hopefully free.

Seems like an awfully drastic thing to force the body maker of any body that might be misused to do though on something that could simply be; wear a cover if your avatar is underage or risk being reported. Where do we draw the line? 

Edited May 5 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[Arielle Popstar]

9 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

Seems like an awfully drastic thing to force the body maker of any body that might be misused to do though on something that could simply be; wear a cover if your avatar is underage or risk being reported. Where do we draw the line? 

I would think the body makers would do it as a public courtesy and besides, what body wouldn't if they wish to retain their market share.

[MissSweetViolet]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I would think the body makers would do it as a public courtesy and besides, what body wouldn't if they wish to retain their market share.

I don't disagree, but who here really wants every single body to have a forced modesty layer? I don't engage in anything adult, never have, probably never will. But many do, so how would that affect them? You could do two versions, but then the nude version could be misused. So how does that work in practice if [and only if, if it comes down to being good enough to be on the skin layer, then this is not an issue] LL now wants every child to have built in modesty layer in the body? Unless they plan to tell us what can and can't be used for a child avatar, but again, how would that work in practicality?

Edited May 5 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

27 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Would think Maitreya might update LaraX that is non-bom and no-applier that just uses the included skins with the modesty layer. Hopefully free.

---accidental double quote, wasn't gonna reply to this post ----

1 hour ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I think we all know that people who skirt the line use adult bodies, but a couple of comments in the other thread reminded me of something today that I didn't even think of, and I don't think anyone at LL did ether. It's that there are adult bodies that can go much younger then the skirting the age crowd.

What I remember was an avatar I had originally made when I had contemplated joining the Mischief Managed RP about 2 years ago. In order to start there, one requirement is that if your starting at the youngest grade they offer, is that the avatar would be 11. So I created an avatar to fit, using Maitreya, because at the time, it was the avatar I had with the most clothing to fit the strict dress code.https://mischiefmanagedsl.net/school-dresscode/ I didn't end up joining the RP cause I realized I didn't have time to do it.

Luckily still found the avatar in a folder [I actually thought I had deleted her]. But it brings up a good point that I hadn't even thought of till now.

This is said 11 year old avatar. Nothing about her skirts this policy, she would and should fall under it pretty clear. But If I can easily go 11 with an adult body, how does LL plan to enforce the modesty layer if my understanding about needing it built in to the body is correct, for those who use adult bodies for younger avatars. It seems absolutely absurd and flat out uncalled for to insist adult bodies have a built in layer too.

Now if this just needs to be built into the the skin as many have suggested, or a BoM layer will suffice, then it removes the issue entirely of course. But this is why this layer NEEDS clarification! I will also add some of the important questions that have come up in the other thread too, minus the age appearance one, I think LL has over 100 pages of that they can go through for opinions.

Does the layer need to be built into the body, will a layer built into an avatar skin be good enough, can BoM underwear be counted as compiling?

Will there be a difference regarding the gender of the avatar?

Does the age the avatar in question dictate what the layer should look like? [I'd argue it should since a teen vs a 5 year is not the same, especially in regard to gender, especially at older ages.]

Do non human avatars need a layer too?

The majority of mainstream avatars for kids are BoM just like adult bodies, so how do all the BoM layers [skins, tattoos, clothing, etc] fall into this?

What about needing to alpha for mesh clothing? Just like adults, kid clothing doesn't always fit right and needs an alpha layer or alpha from the hud, is using an alpha layer for this going to make any kid avatar trying to get mesh clothing to fit non compliant since you said alpha was not good enough? How does this work?

It doesn't work, LL effed up as usual

Edited May 5 by BilliJo Aldrin
added correction

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, MissSweetViolet said:

I don't disagree, but who here really wants every single body to have a forced modesty layer? I don't engage in anything adult, never have, probably never will. But many do, so how would that affect them? You could do two versions, but then the nude version could be misused. So how does that work in practice if [and only if, if it comes down to being good enough to be on the skin layer, then this is not an issue] LL now wants every child to have built in modesty layer in the body? Unless they plan to tell us what can and can't be used for a child avatar, but again, how would that work in practicality?

It only would need the skin presets to be added to include a separate addition for the Modesty option.

  

[Chic Aeon]

1 hour ago, MissSweetViolet said:

how does LL plan to enforce the modesty layer

You are assuming that LL actually plans to enforce the rules. Historically that has not been the case on OH SO MANY occasions.   Rules are there mostly for the company's protection and appearances sake.  I have turned in a lot of TOS violations over the years and very few have been rectified.  

Maybe asking this at the May 20th (I think) roundtable would be your best bet. 

[Coffee Pancake]

I've heard of people trying to accomplish this with senra as Maitreya has geometry in the groin and can never be compliant.

[MissSweetViolet]

7 minutes ago, Chic Aeon said:

You are assuming that LL actually plans to enforce the rules. Historically that has not been the case on OH SO MANY occasions.   Rules are there mostly for the company's protection and appearances sake.  I have turned in a lot of TOS violations over the years and very few have been rectified.  

Maybe asking this at the May 20th (I think) roundtable would be your best bet. 

Agreed. But since accounts are on the line, I'd still want to abide by the rules, I just wish they would better clarify it.

I plan to, unless they come up with something to address it first.

6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I've heard of people trying to accomplish this with senra as Maitreya has geometry in the groin and can never be compliant.

That's true I didn't even think about that. That makes it even more important, how can this be enforced as stated? -sigh-

Edited May 5 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections.

[MissSweetViolet]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It only would need the skin presets to be added to include a separate addition for the Modesty option.

  

True, although they could do a mesh overlay that didn't react to BoM/Applier skins, so they could still be used. But Coffee brought a great point, the mesh detail. They would have to fully rework that.

Right now I just feel like pulling out my hair. I hope they clarify this layer thing soon.

[Starberry Passion]

I didn't know so many people used maitreya for a child body.

I seen it as an adult body, always at all times..

What this implies, to me at least, is that every body that can be made into a child must be with a modesty layer.

Maitreya doesn't look like a child's body, to me, nor does Legacy or Kupra or Ebody

but some people have said that they used each of these bodies as a child avatar and argued that children can be curvy too. More people said they used Maitreya

If Linden Lab were to do this to any of these bodies, that are suppose to be adult, then it would not be fair to people who use them as an adult body so no one would actually be able to do anything adult, have anything adult and it will still be no line between what is and what isn't a child avatar.

[Sydelle Zanzibar]

This is what i was trying to say in the other thread. Child avis use just about anything to make their avi. So, you can't make anything be non removable in the bodies themselves, and you can't just police mesh bodies marketed to child avis.

The only reasonable way to do this is to just require BOM undies or completely alphaing the designated areas.  This would solve the problem of children not being nude even when not all the way rezzed and not break avatar creation.

[Coffee Pancake]

I checked the female rebirth and it's out ... it really is a walking ToS violation.

It's a child body that can be pushed to a slender adult via different shapes. only the shape changes, the mesh does not.

It has adult bits as part of the mesh. All camel toe all the time, with a hud button to add even more detail.

No one should be wearing this body at all right now - It breaks ToS out of the box.

[Starberry Passion]

8 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I checked the female rebirth and it's out ... it really is a walking ToS violation.

It's a child body that can be pushed to a slender adult via different shapes. only the shape changes, the mesh does not.

It has adult bits as part of the mesh. All camel toe all the time, with a hud button to add even more detail.

No one should be wearing this body at all right now - It breaks ToS out of the box.

the Rebirth body does change but not how you think it does.

It's a hybrid body, not just a child body. It goes from Child, to Teen to Adult. The problem is how it changes and what it represents because of what they advertised it as.

If it wasn't marketed as a hyrbid "be a child, teen or adult, and it was an adult body, I can see it being fine for adults to use as a body. It won't stop people from discriminating against you but

It changes breast forms, why? because people think breasts are the only way a woman is a woman in Second Life.

That's how it changes.

It's why I dislike the body, because it just is like "I now have big breasts, so I'm now an adult."

[animats]

On that note, under the new rules, is this still legitimate?

This is at WelcomeHub's Community Exhibition. G-rated area.

Perhaps this should be moved to an adult area.

The real-world Boys Town is a Catholic institution for troubled boys.

[Aya Sweetheart]

I think that would be up to the user, not the maker.

Maitreya just needs to add a disclaimer "for adult avatar use only" and if someone misuses the product, that's on the user.

[MissSweetViolet]

6 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

I think that would be up to the user, not the maker.

Maitreya just needs to add a disclaimer "for adult avatar use only" and if someone misuses the product, that's on the user.

LL did have it in their FAQ refencing the body maker being the one that needed to implement the changes. Can't find it now though, not sure if I'm just sleepy and looking in the wrong spot, or if they changed it. But should LL really be dictating what bodies we can and can't use? This would be less of an issue for younger kids, since they wouldn't be using an adult body likely anyway, but far more troublesome for teen avatars, they have far few options.

[Coffee Pancake]

15 minutes ago, animats said:

On that note, under the new rules, is this still legitimate?

This is at WelcomeHub's Community Exhibition. G-rated area.

Perhaps this should be moved to an adult area.

Being gay and under 18 is allowed. In and out of SL.

Prohibit the ability for anyone of any age to express that and it's scorched earth.

[Dorientje Woller]

7 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

I didn't know so many people used maitreya for a child body.

I seen it as an adult body, always at all times..

What this implies, to me at least, is that every body that can be made into a child must be with a modesty layer.

Maitreya doesn't look like a child's body, to me, nor does Legacy or Kupra or Ebody

but some people have said that they used each of these bodies as a child avatar and argued that children can be curvy too. More people said they used Maitreya

If Linden Lab were to do this to any of these bodies, that are suppose to be adult, then it would not be fair to people who use them as an adult body so no one would actually be able to do anything adult, have anything adult and it will still be no line between what is and what isn't a child avatar.

Strange that some are single out Maitreya because you can make it look like a child. Hmm, anyone can make any body look like a child with the correct deformers available in SL. Frankly, the LL demands that any body maker or skin creator to add a baked in modesty layer, it's over with SL. And no, you can't force people to buy specific brands of bodies because some of the userbase have been abusing the Maitreya body. 

[Starberry Passion]

4 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Strange that some are single out Maitreya because you can make it look like a child. Hmm, anyone can make any body look like a child with the correct deformers available in SL. Frankly, the LL demands that any body maker or skin creator to add a baked in modesty layer, it's over with SL. And no, you can't force people to buy specific brands of bodies because some of the userbase have been abusing the Maitreya body. 

I've never tried to make anyone buy any bodies of any brand, idk what you're talking about.

Also, who singled out Maitreya? I literally said that maitreya doesn't look like a child's body AND I also said that some people use all those other bodies to be a child as well.

Not sure what you're trying to argue.

[Starberry Passion]

2 hours ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

I think that would be up to the user, not the maker.

Maitreya just needs to add a disclaimer "for adult avatar use only" and if someone misuses the product, that's on the user.

Yeah, I personally don't see Maitreya as a child body.

I don't see Legacy as a child body, nor Reborn nor Kupra.

I don't see any Lelutka heads as child heads.

It felt like people were adament to say lelutka heads are childish/child like, trying to accuse Heaux of making child faces

But I think that all adult bodies should add a disclaimer as well, "Adult Body"

and if the head is adult "Adult Head"

To me, AK make child heads really well, those heads are children heads.

[Coffee Pancake]

I've had a play with Senra Jamie, and you can get in the same ball pack as tweenster.

It takes a lelutka head well and has no extra geometry in the groin or nips, although the butt is a smidge extra. A deformer will fix.

Senra Blake is has waaay too much muscle definition baked in making it pointless.

So .. Come on @Linden Lab, where are my modesty layers.

[Dorientje Woller]

12 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

To me, AK make child heads really well, those heads are children heads.

Those, you can't use on an adult body of any brand. They are specific made for only 2 child bodies, but the names of these are escaping me.

[Starberry Passion]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Those, you can't use on an adult body of any brand. They are specific made for only 2 child bodies, but the names of these are escaping me.

I'm not looking for a child's head and body, was merely saying that Lelutka are adult heads and the heads that AK sell, I've seen to be really good child heads that actually look like a child's head.