Female Spaces - Making Friends

[Starline Corvinus]

Hello, everyone! 😄

Ever since I've returned to SL, leaving my past relationships and realizing I'm lesbian, I've been mostly spending time in female-only spaces and together with a handful of close friends from the past who are not often around due to our vast time zone differences. 

However, most of these female-only communities are dance clubs; I've found that beyond saying "hello", making brief comments and dancing, not much socializing takes place between the members. They're often busy in IM, away or don't respond beyond saying "hello" or making brief comments as I just mentioned. It can be rather awkward and it quickly gets lonely in a crowd. Being a lover of mainly classical music and jazz, I find the music of these clubs rather unengaging. In general, I've found the experience in these places to be rather boring.

These communities are often tight-knit, with everyone knowing each other very well and often having been friends for around 10 years or so. I've found it rather difficult to break into these communities, and I have no idea how these people have come to be friends to begin with. 

I was wondering if anybody knew of any female-only communities or communities in which many of the members are women, which focus on the social aspect beyond just hollow dancing, greetings and remarks here and there. I tend very much to enjoy deep intellectual conversation and philosophical discussion with my close friends and I miss the social aspects of my former communities which I have left due to drama and other issues. There was certainly no music or dancing in these groups most of the time; it was all about conversation and making friends.

The Lesbian Teahouse comes to mind, and I have spent my time there on occasion - there is no music or dancing for the most part, but I run into the same issue; beyond just greetings, exchange of pleasantries and making small comments, many people there are rather close to each other and are either in IM, away or don't respond all that much.

In the last three months, I've only made two friends; one of whom is in a relationship which takes up most of her time in SL, and another whose group duties takes up most of her in-world time as well. I happened to make a third friend at the Lesbian Teahouse, who seemed really nice and promising, but after having to be away from SL for a few days due to unforeseen circumstances, she removed me from her friends list and ceased all contact with me.

In addition, if anybody can offer me advice on how to make friends in such a circumstance, I would appreciate it enormously. The eventual goal for me is to develop a same-sex relationship with another woman in SL; something I have not had since coming out as a lesbian. 

Sincerely, 

- Sarah L. Lane

Edited March 11 by Starline Corvinus

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, Starline Corvinus said:

In addition, if anybody can offer me advice on how to make friends in such a circumstance, I would appreciate it enormously.

Try Pammy's and Warehouse 51 (or is it Warehouse 21).  While not advertised as lesbian hangouts per se a large percentage of the women in both places are.

[Hecate Copperfield]

Thanks for this interesting post. Would you say that trans women, such as myself, would be welcome in the lesbian venues you've mentioned?

 

[Katherine Heartsong]

6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Try Pammy's and Warehouse 51 (or is it Warehouse 21).  While not advertised as lesbian hangouts per se a large percentage of the women in both places are.

Warehouse 21. And I'd agree with you here, @Luna Bliss, Warehouse 21 attracts a largely female crowd who are, for the most part, generally really easy to get along with, and there's very little typically (ahem) male guy chatter/comments in Nearby, especially compared to other clubs. Starlight, try there and just say hello in Nearby of even IM someone whose looks or clothing or avatar you like and start a conversation that way.

And ... Welcome back, Starline! My other advice—as a male IRL but cis-female in SL—is to avoid some of the edgier/darker/kink themed lesbian spots in SL because while I can't be certain of the actual sex/gender of the person behind the keyboard, I have this general rule that the sexier the sim, the less likely it's a woman behind the screen in that female avatar. I know that's a weird attitude for someone like me to make, and is very presumptive, but I have found it to be true often enough.

It sounds like you are looking for a genuine connection with another woman so please, be cautious in SL, but have fun and you'll find that person and your groups soon enough! Happy Monday!

[Katherine Heartsong]

Just now, Hecate Copperfield said:

Thanks for this interesting post. Would you say that trans women, such as myself, would be welcome in the lesbian venues you've mentioned?

100%! I think it's the person and their attitude that makes it go well.

It's the dishonest ones, the liars, and ones cat-fishing and deceiving (i.e., men in female avatars looking for relationships/connections who are deliberately or by omission lying about their RL sex) that cause the issues, emotional hurt to others in SL, and the drama. Be you and see what happens!!

[NipahRika]

Making friends in a non adult sim is probably best IMO. Some/most adult sims and even some LGBTQ+ groups can just be pickup stuff.  I've made some acquaintances in 2 neko and fur friendly dance clubs recently, but I am starting to consider some of those people my friends.   You do you. It is your SL after all, not mine. 

23 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said:

However, most of these female-only communities are dance clubs; I've found that beyond saying "hello", making brief comments and dancing, not much socializing takes place between the members. They're often busy in IM, away or don't respond beyond saying "hello" or making brief comments as I just mentioned. It can be rather awkward and it quickly gets lonely in a crowd. Being a lover of mainly classical music and jazz, I find the music of these clubs rather unengaging. In general, I've found the experience in these places to be rather boring.

This has been my issue with clubs in general besides the two I find myself going back to. The people are just like AFK dancing, or do not reply to me due to my avi being a neko (she has regular human skin and shape! has cat ears and a tail tho). 

15 hours ago, Hecate Copperfield said:

Thanks for this interesting post. Would you say that trans women, such as myself, would be welcome in the lesbian venues you've mentioned?

 

Yes, I think trying to search for trans friendly clubs (gen to moderate) you may find some stuff. I have not looked myself to give any thought out input or suggestions. 

 

15 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

My other advice—as a male IRL but cis-female in SL—is to avoid some of the edgier/darker/kink themed lesbian spots in SL because while I can't be certain of the actual sex/gender of the person behind the keyboard, I have this general rule that the sexier the sim, the less likely it's a woman behind the screen in that female avatar. I know that's a weird attitude for someone like me to make, and is very presumptive, but I have found it to be true often enough.

I agree, but for me over the years I just don't care what gender IRL or even in SL someone is. It doesn't bug me whatsoever. I know it does others, and I get that and understand that. 

[Starline Corvinus]

Thank you all so much for your replies! 😄

I thought I forgot to mention something crucial; 

I'm usually online from 5:00 pm SL time to 11:00 pm SL time. Time zone differences can make all the difference; I have only a handful of friends I am fortunate enough to have which come on around the same time as I do. A lot of people come on but have to leave much earlier than me, meaning that I'm often left alone with only a handful of other people to spend time with, if at all.

I have a rather rare, atypical avatar (otherwise conventionally attractive, although this can be subjective) which I feel would turn off and intimidate some people. I have been told this. In my experience, my one defining characteristic (you'll know it instantly when you see me in-world) is a deal-breaker for some people. So when making friends and finding a partner, I'm keeping this in mind. I would of course, love to have someone who accepts me for who I am and how I wish to be, and loves me because of how I am. But changing my appearance drastically to suit the tastes and expectations of others is not something I'm willing to do. 

On 3/11/2024 at 3:19 PM, Luna Bliss said:

Try Pammy's and Warehouse 51 (or is it Warehouse 21).  While not advertised as lesbian hangouts per se a large percentage of the women in both places are.

Thank you very much, Luna Bliss. For your recommendations. I went to Pammy's; I don't know what they're all about, but all their events seem to be held at around 1 am SL time, which is impossible for me.  I haven't yet seen a single other person there.

Warehouse 21 on the other hand, is absolutely jam packed with people; it lags my PC immensely and I was more worried that my viewer will freeze entirely. I don't think it will be fun waiting for everyone to load in, but beyond that I haven't tried my luck. It would seem rather challenging to interact with people on a more intimate or personal level when there are just so many revellers. From what I saw, it's an absolute riot and seems like the kind of place I usually avoid. 

21 hours ago, Hecate Copperfield said:

Thanks for this interesting post. Would you say that trans women, such as myself, would be welcome in the lesbian venues you've mentioned?

 

Hello, Hecate! It's so good to see you here. I don't know about those particular venues that were mentioned, but yes, a lot of the lesbian venues I've been to seem to welcome trans women, and people of diverse gender identities, so long as they have a feminine aspect to their identity and present in a feminine fashion (certainly no male genitals hanging out) Honestly, I would love nothing more than to meet and make friends with more trans women and gender diverse individuals. But I haven't had much luck in that respect either. I would speculate that, just as in real life, trans people only make up a fraction of the total population of any given locale, making them on average, far rarer.

21 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Warehouse 21. And I'd agree with you here, @Luna Bliss, Warehouse 21 attracts a largely female crowd who are, for the most part, generally really easy to get along with, and there's very little typically (ahem) male guy chatter/comments in Nearby, especially compared to other clubs. Starlight, try there and just say hello in Nearby of even IM someone whose looks or clothing or avatar you like and start a conversation that way.

And ... Welcome back, Starline! My other advice—as a male IRL but cis-female in SL—is to avoid some of the edgier/darker/kink themed lesbian spots in SL because while I can't be certain of the actual sex/gender of the person behind the keyboard, I have this general rule that the sexier the sim, the less likely it's a woman behind the screen in that female avatar. I know that's a weird attitude for someone like me to make, and is very presumptive, but I have found it to be true often enough.

It sounds like you are looking for a genuine connection with another woman so please, be cautious in SL, but have fun and you'll find that person and your groups soon enough! Happy Monday!

21 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

100%! I think it's the person and their attitude that makes it go well.

It's the dishonest ones, the liars, and ones cat-fishing and deceiving (i.e., men in female avatars looking for relationships/connections who are deliberately or by omission lying about their RL sex) that cause the issues, emotional hurt to others in SL, and the drama. Be you and see what happens!!

Katherine, thank you for bringing all of this to my attention. It turns out we've met in-world before; I'm one of the people who went to that exhibition at Ash Grove - I purchased all of your exclusive artworks that were available at the time. We met together at your gallery. It's wonderful to see that you have contributed here. (Although, did you just call me "Starlight"? 😆)

I haven't thought of that before; I started out in SL in the kink community years ago, but I haven't had any experience with lesbian kink communities; mostly it just wasn't my thing, but I'm open to exploring it now. This kind of concern isn't really one that I share; perhaps I haven't ever met anybody I spent time with that turned out to be male in real life, despite having a female avatar - and even if they were, it wouldn't matter at all to me, as long as they treated me well, and certainly not in that overt, hypermasculine, testosterone-fuelled manner that I now strongly seek to avoid. One of my very best friends in SL is male in real life, despite having a female avatar but they are open about it. But thank you for bringing to my attention the possibility of being taken advantage of, deceived and cheated and the potential consequences of such things.

But in my experience... in general, the kind of rabid, witch-hunt mentality to "catfishing" I believe hurts women, all women (especially trans women who might not yet feel comfortable revealing their true gender identity) as much as it hurts men, if not more than men, who are so paranoid about total strangers, their friends, their potential partners in reality being other men with pretty female avatars. For the most part, it's insecure men raising this concern, although I have very occasionally encountered women who are very strict about this on their sim (I took my friends who have female avatars despite being male in real life to these places and nobody was the wiser, so STUFF these oppressive, authoritarian, exclusionary sim owners)

I'm sick to death of me and my friends being constantly treated with suspicion just because some insecure person (usually male) are so excessively fixated on this because  they can't wrap their heads around why some people who aren't female prefer female avatars, and the idea that it's okay to do so. Not everybody feels comfortable revealing their real-world gender, age or any other characteristic and it's absolutely okay to keep this to yourself. We come to SL to be whoever we want to be, and that's awesome - we didn't come to be interrogated, bullied, shamed and mocked by insecure strangers who have an issue with who we truly are.

I'm absolutely sick to death of being caught in the net of suspicion and made to feel like a second-class citizen at a border checkpoint every time I go to a club where there's men. These people automatically assume every female avatar is male in real life (an absolutely ridiculous assumption to begin with) and won't let you go as soon as they catch you in their dragnet of suspicion - as soon as there's potentially a tiny bit of something that gives even a little probable cause to scrutinize and interrogate an individual to the point of bullying, harassment, outing, shame and embarrassment, they will never let you go.

Sure, they will eventually catch someone (not without likely hurting and humiliating them first) but they will unnecessarily hurt many "legitimate" women in the process just because we value our privacy and personal choices and simply don't want to or feel it's necessary to "voice verify" and hand over our social media profiles and a bunch of real life photos of ourselves every time to every single man who is suspicious of us and feels he has the authority to be the "girl police" or the "guy police"  of SL or whatever.

This whole scaremongering mentality is so overblown, and I am so, so over it. Just let women be women, and let people in general be whoever they want to be without scrutiny or fear. I won't ever apologize for my femininity, and neither should my male friends who choose to play as female avatars, whom I will happily defend to the end, even if it puts me in the firing line of the male gaze of death. My stance is that this should hardly ever be anything ANYONE should ever concern themselves with. Perhaps some of you are in the minority, but I'm sure many of those who are male in real life or were assigned male at birth but prefer female avatars, like my friends, are also sick to death of all of this too.

In summary, this kind of elitist, paranoid witch-hunt mentality and behavior - it hurts women, it hurts men, it hurts trans people, it even hurts people with disabilities such as mute people.

Sorry for the rant, but this is something I'm really sick of. Katherine, I haven't experienced what you described, and I hope I never will, but this is my take on it, from my personal experience. This isn't intended as a personal criticism of you.

5 hours ago, NipahRika said:

Making friends in a non adult sim is probably best IMO. Some/most adult sims and even some LGBTQ+ groups can just be pickup stuff.  I've made some acquaintances in 2 neko and fur friendly dance clubs recently, but I am starting to consider some of those people my friends.   You do you. It is your SL after all, not mine. 

This has been my issue with clubs in general besides the two I find myself going back to. The people are just like AFK dancing, or do not reply to me due to my avi being a neko (she has regular human skin and shape! has cat ears and a tail tho). 

Yes, I think trying to search for trans friendly clubs (gen to moderate) you may find some stuff. I have not looked myself to give any thought out input or suggestions. 

 

I agree, but for me over the years I just don't care what gender IRL or even in SL someone is. It doesn't bug me whatsoever. I know it does others, and I get that and understand that. 

Yes, my thoughts exactly. I hardly spend time in adult sims to begin with, and I'm certainly not looking for/interested in sex whatsoever. I'm not sure about pickup stuff, or how lucky I would be in those places. I have a rather rare avatar which is quite different as well, but there's no real community for my kind, other than the sisterhood I was part of in my first year of joining SL - sadly that shut down and I miss my sisters terribly. People do ignore me, but I don't know if it's because of my avatar or for other reasons, but I haven't had any glaring negative experiences as a result. 

If you know of any good clubs in which people actually socialize instead of dancing while AFK and saying the same old greetings, pleasantries and short comments, then by all means, let me know!

As for the real-world gender of someone in SL, as I wrote above, it doesn't bother me whatsoever either. I am attracted to females but so long as people present and act in a (at least relatively) feminine way in-world, then it's all fine by me. I think I am open to men with female avatars and definitely transgender women. So long as there is a genuine connection and good intentions I'm open to relationships with just about anyone with a female avatar.

Male avatars and masculine behaviour (not interests) for the most part turn me off completely now, not like before when the feeling of being in an intimate relationship with a female would make me strangely uncomfortable (I think this may be a learned behaviour that went away with time and experience) and I would constantly seek out men over women (but I would still be open to a same-sex relationship if it was right) 

There is, of course... a difference between merely having gender preferences and outing/humiliating people without their consent. Let's be clear about this distinction.

If I were to still persist in finding the right male partner for me, he would have to have a very specific type of appearance and personality, which is exceedingly rare so I figure at that point it's easier to look for a female partner. But I'm really struggling to make friends right now, let alone finding a partner to be in a relationship with. 

So any tips and advice would be more than welcome 😉

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by Starline Corvinus

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Probably 90% of SL lesbians are guys in RL.

SL is a MMORPG doncha know

😂

Edited March 13 by BilliJo Aldrin
found a picture

[PheebyKatz]

AWT (A Woman's Touch) might still be around, too. Ladies/girls/female-presenting avatars only, and mostly quite friendly, from what I've seen.

An island getaway sort of place.

Edited March 12 by PheebyKatz

[Starline Corvinus]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Probably 90% of SL lesbians are guys in RL.

SL is a MMORPG doncha know

😂

I really couldn't care less even if that were actually true. I'm surprised you didn't go higher and say 95%-100%. Even as a playful exaggeration, that just shows how ridiculous that line of thinking is. 

I heard somewhere, some time ago that female avatars outnumber male avatars by a certain margin. You can argue whether SL truly attracts more female users, or there is a significant number of men who prefer female avatars, or a combination of both factors which broadly increases the number of female avatars in SL, in general. Still, I feel there is a significant number of male avatars too, although I'm not sure what percentage of them are female users. I heard an isolated case from one woman who was suspicious that a user with a male avatar who was making advances towards her was just an overzealous woman in reality. 

Whatever the case, as stated previously, I really don't care if the people with female avatars I interact with are men in real life, so long as they have good intentions and we get along very nicely. In my personal experience, I've been hurt and abused far more often by people with male avatars, and I'm generally treated far better with those with female avatars. Not to say that women are like flawless, untouchable angels - there's plenty of drama and competitive nonsense among women, we all know that.

There's generally never any real way to tell just through brief, casual interaction a person's true gender unless they're THAT bad at portraying the gender they claim to be, but it doesn't matter to me at all. I generally get treated better by those presenting as female - I would rather spend time with a kind transgender woman who feels lonely and marginalized than with hypermasculine, overconfident dominant male chauvinists who just sees me as another sexual conquest, who are more likely to mistreat not only women but those gender diverse individuals themselves.

I'm not attracted to a masculine appearance or behaviors at all, so anybody nice with good intentions who presents feminine or has any aspects of femininity as part of their personal identity is more than welcome with me. If such people were truly that problematic, they certainly wouldn't take kindly to allowing transgender or otherwise gender diverse individuals in many of the women-only/lesbian spaces I mentioned. On the other hand, I'm sure many of us can understand that those with male avatars who come to disturb female-only spaces are, more often than not, problematic and do not come with good intentions, unlike those trans and gender diverse people I just mentioned. 

The fearmongering over men in real life using female avatars as a genuine threat is seriously overblown as I've nentioned many times already, and I'm honestly so over it. Catfishing may be more of a pertinent issue if you've developed a long-time relationship with another person and you were to meet them in real life, but in casual text-only interactions, it really isn't that much of an issue at all. If you have genuine cautionary stories to share, then by all means, but I would rather not have this thread devolve into only an argument about this.

Anyway, hopefully this is the last time I'll have to address this. I made this post because I was struggling to make friends in general in many of the female-only spaces that I've spent time in, in part but not exclusively due to the nature of many of these places, in my own personal experience. I'll respond to any replies but I would prefer if we kept on topic on this matter from now on.

Edited March 12 by Starline Corvinus

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Starline Corvinus said:

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

Probably 90% of SL lesbians are guys in RL.

SL is a MMORPG doncha know

😂

I really couldn't care less even if that were actually true. I'm surprised you didn't go higher and say 95%-100%. Even as a playful exaggeration, that just shows how ridiculous that line of thinking is. 

I think it is just as fair to say that "90%" (make up a figure) of "SL women" are "guys in RL".  This comes up fairly often (with varying made-up figures).

[Starline Corvinus]

1 hour ago, PheebyKatz said:

AWT (A Woman's Touch) might still be around, too. Ladies/girls/female-presenting avatars only, and mostly quite friendly, from what I've seen.

An island getaway sort of place.

Thank you for the recommendation, PheebyKatz. I'll check it out and report back on what kind of an experience I have. 😀

[ValKalAstra]

Personally, I've found it easier to meet people around shared interests than to go to meet up places. For example, I've found more acquiantances in the various photography groups, than I have in the Dark Butterfly. It just kind of naturally lends itself towards a shared interest and conversation - which might collide with the desire to be in predominantly female preseting communities.

Clubs and such are... fleeting. Random people flowing in and out all the time but I've never managed to make one of these contacts stick, whether they were just really fun and engaging talks or something more adult oriented.

 

[Starline Corvinus]

55 minutes ago, ValKalAstra said:

Personally, I've found it easier to meet people around shared interests than to go to meet up places. For example, I've found more acquiantances in the various photography groups, than I have in the Dark Butterfly. It just kind of naturally lends itself towards a shared interest and conversation - which might collide with the desire to be in predominantly female preseting communities.

Clubs and such are... fleeting. Random people flowing in and out all the time but I've never managed to make one of these contacts stick, whether they were just really fun and engaging talks or something more adult oriented.

 

Thank you for your reply, ValKalAstra. 

I'm not always sure what my main interests are, let alone what interests I share with other people, because I have so many, and I move from one to another on a whim, scarcely sticking with one interest particularly with any consistency. I like fashion and discussing making avatars, I have an interest in history and folklore which I share with at least one friend, but generally I like to spend a lot of time with close friends discussing whatever comes to mind - very often our conversations are of an intellectual nature, with topics such as linguistics. 

I used to be involved in micronation roleplay, but I'm no longer active; it's a very small, niche community and I don't really like to associate with the kind of people that community attracts. We're all usually inactive anyway.

My closest friends are also from various roleplay backgrounds, but we're mostly retired and haven't participated in active roleplay in years - for the most part, we're happy just to casually do very light roleplay while we're together, dressing up in costumes or uniforms or discussing the lore in our profiles, small things like that. I only know a handful of people like this, mainly because we're all mutual friends, and there's only so many of us. I don't know if there's a community for "roleplay retirees", but if there was, I would definitely be all over it. 😁

It's only by pure chance that I have met these rare individuals over the years who hit that sweet spot of intellectual tendencies mixed with diverse, flexible interests and creative self-expression.

I have other very minor interests for which communities do exist, but I'm nowhere near passionate enough to be an active participating member of such communities - I'll definitely feel lost when most of the members who are extremely knowledgeable are talking about esoteric things that I can't relate to or understand at all, so I've always mostly stuck with existing close friends whom I can talk about whatever with and do whatever we want with.

Naturally, gravitating towards female spaces means that my options are more limited and things are more broad in nature. Clubs, hangouts like the Lesbian Teahouse, if I can find more than one like it, and kink spaces. The latter isn't really my thing at all. If I'm missing other options, feel free to let me know.

Edited March 12 by Starline Corvinus

[Luna Bliss]

10 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said:

Thank you very much, Luna Bliss. For your recommendations. I went to Pammy's; I don't know what they're all about, but all their events seem to be held at around 1 am SL time, which is impossible for me.  I haven't yet seen a single other person there.

Warehouse 21 on the other hand, is absolutely jam packed with people; it lags my PC immensely and I was more worried that my viewer will freeze entirely. I don't think it will be fun waiting for everyone to load in, but beyond that I haven't tried my luck. It would seem rather challenging to interact with people on a more intimate or personal level when there are just so many revellers. From what I saw, it's an absolute riot and seems like the kind of place I usually avoid. 

Yeah Pammy's is only active at certain times when they hold specific dances, but they really do chat a lot and people make good friends there over time.

You can make friends at Warehouse 21 too (if you can ever see them due to the lag..lol), but it does require initiating contact and starting a chat. I had the greatest experience there with a lesbian trans woman who showed me the ropes when I returned to SL somewhat over a year ago, not knowing much about the current social scene. They sent a carefully curated list of all the best fashion shops in SL.

On a more serious note, one thing to consider is that when you interact with either lesbian trans women or with men who just want to try out being women as a kind of roleplay, you are almost always interacting with an individual who doesn't really understand the complexities of being a lesbian or a woman. For empathy to occur it requires the experience of being a woman or a lesbian over time.

In other words, being a lesbian and desiring to explore this identity in SL involves far more than hanging out with avatars who don't have a virtual ding-dong. LOL

It's why some refer to their choice of a romantic partner and their identity as a lifestyle -- it truly involves a different way of viewing the world and our place in it. Society does major conditioning of people as it socializes its citizens, and it requires processing our emotions and experiences over time in order to develop a clear identity for ourselves in a world that tries to force us into its prescription.
Again, you just don't get that perspective from men choosing to play women in SL, though you might receive some of that perspective from actual lesbian trans women who, over time, came to terms with it all (although they will never truly have the understanding one acquires via growing up as a woman).

I'm not knocking anyone who prefers to roleplay and experiment in SL in this way (on either side), or anyone who prefers not to delve more deeply into their identity.  I'm only pointing out that if you truly feel you are a lesbian in any world, and want to explore this facet of your life, it's more beneficial to interact with actual women and lesbians who have gone through this experience.

 

Edited March 12 by Luna Bliss

[BilliJo Aldrin]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think it is just as fair to say that "90%" (make up a figure) of "SL women" are "guys in RL".  This comes up fairly often (with varying made-up figures).

for straight women, the percentage is far lower. With no proof, I’d suggest about 20% of straight women in SL were RL men. 

What I don’t get is the number of m2f men in RL who play trans women in SL.

If a man in RL wishes more than anything to be  a woman, then why not just be a woman. SL gives them the opportunity to perfectly live their dream. Why do they drag all their trans baggage with them?

Yea, I know, off topic. Im sure a mod will be along shortly to make the necessary adjustments.

😂

[vanettda Lassard]

12 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said:

I have a rather rare, atypical avatar (otherwise conventionally attractive, although this can be subjective) which I feel would turn off and intimidate some people. I have been told this. In my experience, my one defining characteristic (you'll know it instantly when you see me in-world) is a deal-breaker for some people.

Ok... Now I am truly curious! I'm a long time resident of SL and (I like to think) I've seen it all. Nothing really phases me anymore. I once had a provocative sunset rendezvous with a floating, blood-shot eyeball. 

As for the gender thing. I'm a firm believer in you are who you present yourself to be. Whatever exists behind the keyboard in the damp basement of their mother's home is their deal not mine. But...if you're are going to present as a female BE that female. I don't want to hear about your painful prostate surgery. In my experience there are a LOT of 30-50 yr old women on SL. Back in 2007-8 I would have said that 90% of females who lie in dark corners of the grid are males who are infatuated with looking at their naked avatar. But I don't think that is true anymore, and like I said. I don't care. Oh... and another thing. I have met more than a few male avatars who are female in RL, who have chosen this persona to avoid the constant badgering of talking dangling bits. 

I created an Avatar for my RL wife. Her avatar name is Trix. My wife comes-in world a couple of times a year but really doesn't groove on all the fiddling around with buttons. So every once in a while (once or twice a month) I will take Trix out for a spin, update her looks and various attachments (I have to buy NEW clothes for LaraX, really?)  and visit new places. (so After Taste spa is just a copy of Breathe spa with more pools?) and generally get in touch with my female side. My female persona is VERY different than my male avi. I have no explanation for this other than, "It's what comes out." I'm probably working out mommy issues. 

At to the answer for the original question? I have no clue where an interesting, literate, female would meet other interesting literate females with a call to explore their sapphotic attraction beyond the current and questionable meat market of clubs. I'll be following this thread to find out. 

Edited March 12 by vanettda Lassard

[Luna Bliss]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

What I don’t get is the number of m2f men in RL who play trans women in SL.

If a man in RL wishes more than anything to be  a woman, then why not just be a woman. SL gives them the opportunity to perfectly live their dream. Why do they drag all their trans baggage with them?

I think it could be an attempt to be accepted for who they are. Trans people (especially m2f) have a hard time being accepted as valid members of our society in RL (to put it mildly). Their murder rate is even higher.

In a similar vein, I've seen people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in RL. I think they want acceptance, and to learn how to navigate their condition via their interactions in SL.

[BilliJo Aldrin]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I think it could be an attempt to be accepted for who they are. Trans people (especially m2f) have a hard time being accepted as valid members of our society in RL (to put it mildly). Their murder rate is even higher.

In a similar vein, I've seen people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in RL. I think they want acceptance, and to learn how to navigate their condition via their interactions in SL.

I’m going out in a limb by saying this, but if their murder rate is higher (proof please) maybe its at the hands of outraged men who thought they were with a woman, and then finds men junk in their partners panties.

I’m in no way justifying it, but they need to make it clear very early that they are trans.

What a person feels like on the inside is no compensation for what their potential lover expects to find on the outside.

Its not until its too late that post op trans people realize that their dating pool has basically been reduced to zero

Edited March 12 by BilliJo Aldrin
added stuff

[NipahRika]

15 hours ago, Starline Corvinus said:

If you know of any good clubs in which people actually socialize instead of dancing while AFK and saying the same old greetings, pleasantries and short comments, then by all means, let me know!

 

I am just a member/VIP of these clubs and do not work for them. Not lesbian clubs or anything, but I've found they are acceptable of everyone and anyone. 

Back to the 80s is one club I like where people do socialize usually. I sometimes AFK dance there and just remain quiet at times when doing something else on the side.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Awa/145/220/3501 is the SLURL! A place where the Eighties, the Decade of Excess, lives on with some of the best music from 1979-1991 in a world full of neon nights and pop-culture nostalgia. Come Back To The 80's and Feel Where You Belong!

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Davvi/47/48/3502  -- [IN]dustry Nightclub is pretty much another club with the same folks in it, maybe different people too. Founded in 2020, by clubbers, for clubbers, delivering some of the hottest tracks from across the genres! Our DJs are legit, our Hosts friendly, and our Guests nothing

I find attending clubs when they do events is best as that's when I notice people tend to socialize and talk more

[Stephanie Misfit]

1 hour ago, BilliJo Aldrin said:

I’m going out in a limb by saying this, but if their murder rate is higher (proof please) maybe its at the hands of outraged men who thought they were with a woman, and then finds men junk in their partners panties.

I’m in no way justifying it, but they need to make it clear very early that they are trans.

What a person feels like on the inside is no compensation for what their potential lover expects to find on the outside.

Its not until its too late that post op trans people realize that their dating pool has basically been reduced to zero

The murder rate is what it is because of the number of trans women engaged in prostitution. It is a dangerous occupation, that poor, marginalised people often find themselves involved in. However, it is not the highest murder rate, not by far. It is far more dangerous to exist as a black man, or as a woman.

[Katherine Heartsong]

3 hours ago, Stephanie Misfit said:

The murder rate is what it is because of the number of trans women engaged in prostitution. It is a dangerous occupation, that poor, marginalised people often find themselves involved in. However, it is not the highest murder rate, not by far. It is far more dangerous to exist as a black man, or as a woman.

Wow. Trans women are murdered for who they are, not what they do. Trans women yes are often at economic, educational, and marginalized that leads them to specific lifestyles, but they are murdered not because of their work, they are murdered because of their gender and identity because they are often violently despised for being trans by so many in society. And you don't even need to have an (R) after your name to hate on the trans community (though that is frequent), just look at well knownwriters for examples of bigotry and hate and misunderstanding.

And black transgendered murder rate per capita is higher than black female murder rate per capita. Also ...

• Transgender people (16+) are victimized over four times more often than cisgender people. In 2017-2018, transgender people experienced 86.2 victimizations per 1,000 people compared to 21.7 victimizations per 1,000 people for cisgender people.
• Transgender women and men had higher rates of violent victimization (86.1 and 107.5 per 1,000 people, respectively) than cisgender women and men (23.7 and 19.8 per 1,000 people, respectively).
• One in four transgender women who were victimized thought the incident was a hate crime compared to less than one in ten cisgender women.
• In 2017-2018, transgender households had higher rates of property victimization (214.1 per 1,000 households) than cisgender households (108 per 1,000 households).

I need to step out of this conversation with apologies.

Edited March 13 by Katherine Heartsong

[Starline Corvinus]

Thank you all very much for your replies. 

It seems this thread is being hijacked once again, so I'll bring it back to the main topic of discussion, after addressing some of the replies. Although thank you to Katherine Heartsong for saying what needed to be said in response to the murder of trans people being mentioned.

Quote

I’m going out in a limb by saying this, but if their murder rate is higher (proof please) maybe its at the hands of outraged men who thought they were with a woman, and then finds men junk in their partners panties.

I’m in no way justifying it, but they need to make it clear very early that they are trans.

What a person feels like on the inside is no compensation for what their potential lover expects to find on the outside.

Its not until its too late that post op trans people realize that their dating pool has basically been reduced to zero

Open communication and clear expectations is important and preferred but as far as I know, in many jurisdictions unlike age or STI status, under ordinary  circumstances they are under no legal obligation to disclose their sex to anyone in a casual relationship or a sexual encounter at any point in time. I am sure it has been seen time and time again; if someone murders a trans woman for not disclosing their sex and finding out they have male genitals, the legal responsibility lies on the perpetrator, not the victim. We should all know by now that the gay/trans panic defense is absolute hogwash and should have absolutely no legal basis whatsoever. If you're so stricken by the fact that your partner is in fact, not the gender they portrayed themselves to be that you're driven to literally murder another human being, then there's something deeply wrong with you, with your justification for murder being not much different to any other supposed justification for murder. 

We often don't blame women for when their partners assault them, we blame their partners for being uncontrolled, murdering savages. If men can't control their urges, we shouldn't blame women, trans women for being absolutely scared to death of them. More often than not, the perpetrators are men. The responsibility should lie on them mostly. It's incredibly absurd just how transphobic some of the replies here are, but I shouldn't be surprised. 

Quote

I think it could be an attempt to be accepted for who they are. Trans people (especially m2f) have a hard time being accepted as valid members of our society in RL (to put it mildly). Their murder rate is even higher.

In a similar vein, I've seen people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in RL. I think they want acceptance, and to learn how to navigate their condition via their interactions in SL.

This. 

I feel this is exactly why trans people portray themselves as trans people in SL, whether with their avatar or stating it in their profile. The transgender cause for equal rights, visibility and acceptance is far more important than just blending in with men and women. 

I can attest to meeting people in SL using wheelchairs who are confined to them in real life too. For a while, I dated a man who was confined to a wheelchair in real life who always insisted on using one and roleplaying the same needs they have in real life at all times, because he felt it was more genuine and authentic. I also dated another man who was confined to a wheelchair in real life, but didn't want to use one in SL because he didn't want to have the same limitations of being confined to a wheelchair in real life. I'm not a wheelchair user, but I do have a different disability altogether which makes it far easier to empathize with those who do have disabilities. 

14 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Yeah Pammy's is only active at certain times when they hold specific dances, but they really do chat a lot and people make good friends there over time.

You can make friends at Warehouse 21 too (if you can ever see them due to the lag..lol), but it does require initiating contact and starting a chat. I had the greatest experience there with a lesbian trans woman who showed me the ropes when I returned to SL somewhat over a year ago, not knowing much about the current social scene. They sent a carefully curated list of all the best fashion shops in SL.

On a more serious note, one thing to consider is that when you interact with either lesbian trans women or with men who just want to try out being women as a kind of roleplay, you are almost always interacting with an individual who doesn't really understand the complexities of being a lesbian or a woman. For empathy to occur it requires the experience of being a woman or a lesbian over time.

In other words, being a lesbian and desiring to explore this identity in SL involves far more than hanging out with avatars who don't have a virtual ding-dong. LOL

It's why some refer to their choice of a romantic partner and their identity as a lifestyle -- it truly involves a different way of viewing the world and our place in it. Society does major conditioning of people as it socializes its citizens, and it requires processing our emotions and experiences over time in order to develop a clear identity for ourselves in a world that tries to force us into its prescription.
Again, you just don't get that perspective from men choosing to play women in SL, though you might receive some of that perspective from actual lesbian trans women who, over time, came to terms with it all (although they will never truly have the understanding one acquires via growing up as a woman).

I'm not knocking anyone who prefers to roleplay and experiment in SL in this way (on either side), or anyone who prefers not to delve more deeply into their identity.  I'm only pointing out that if you truly feel you are a lesbian in any world, and want to explore this facet of your life, it's more beneficial to interact with actual women and lesbians who have gone through this experience.

 

Thank you for your reply once again, Luna Bliss. 

Your response has given me something to pause and think about many times over. You raise a good point about "that when you interact with either lesbian trans women or with men who just want to try out being women as a kind of roleplay, you are almost always interacting with an individual who doesn't really understand the complexities of being a lesbian or a woman. For empathy to occur it requires the experience of being a woman or a lesbian over time." I agree that to a certain degree, this can be true.

Although as a woman who only relatively recently realized I'm a lesbian, I myself feel that I may not be able to say that I understand the complexities of being a lesbian - I have never been in a significant lesbian relationship before. For the longest time, I identified as bisexual with a more straight lean towards men, with some denial that I actually liked women with any real significance. Although after several experiences with men, I went from being around 70%-90% male-leaning bisexual to 70%-90% female leaning bisexual before moving to more perhaps fluctuating around 90%-100% lesbian. 

In my experience thus far, there isn't anything about the trans women I've interacted with that makes me feel they don't understand the complexities of being a woman or a lesbian. They certainly have complex challenges and issues specific to them as transgender women and as transgender, gender non-conforming individuals in general that I can only do my best to understand, support and empathize with. The trans women I've interacted with in my experience are very different from the men I've interacted with over the years, despite the assumptions people may make about trans women, their perceived masculinity and the consequences of such.

When it comes to dating and such, my primary preference may be biological women, but it still stands: I am certainly just as open to anybody who presents in a feminine manner; men with female avatars and trans women. People with female avatars in SL have consistently treated me far better than those with male avatars, so I'm open to making friends with and having a relationship with anybody with a female avatar, as long as they have good intentions and there is potential for a genuine connection. 

Of course I want to experience the fullness of a lesbian relationship, but any relationships with trans women and men with female avatars are no less real or fulfilling, necessarily. I'm just not attracted to men, or masculinity, so anybody who expresses their femininity is welcome with me.

I hope my reply has given more context and insight, has addressed some of the responses given and has tied such discussion back to the main topic.

Edited March 13 by Starline Corvinus

[PheebyKatz]

I'm physically attracted to persons who are motherly and have boobies. It's not sexual, but it's physical. I like sitting and being held and just talking, or not talking or anything. A mom type, aunt type, what-have-you. Feeling that I can trust them never to creep on me is kind of a priority.

I've never cared what anyone was hiding under their skirt, because that doesn't interest me. As long as they don't make some dirty joke out of it, and they're "playing a lady" in whatever sense is relevant, I consider them a lady. If my grandma turned out to be my grandpa, my only question would be, "Why are you telling me about your junk, Grandma? Who cares?"

My SL older sister left SL, so now all I really have are local residents I'm cool about chatting with. Some are nice, but I'm not that kind of close to any of them. Besides, I work there.

I've seldom had much luck with female-specific sims, because anyone who would want to be motherly or auntly (if that wasn't a word, it is now) or big-sisterly towards me usually already has a clusterfork of girls who are already playing the sort of role I'd be inclined to play with someone. There's usually not all that much sitting and holding going on, just sibling pack behavior. It's too impersonal, like a harem or something.

So I just build stuff. Maybe someday I'll get emotionally involved again, who knows?

The people at AWT were still nice, though. Even if they kicked my brother out for showing up by himself once, because he told them he was a boy dragon. He knew the rules.

Edited March 13 by PheebyKatz

[BilliJo Aldrin]

15 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Again, you just don't get that perspective from men choosing to play women in SL, though you might receive some of that perspective from actual lesbian trans women who, over time, came to terms with it all (although they will never truly have the understanding one acquires via growing up as a woman).

I'm not knocking anyone who prefers to roleplay and experiment in SL in this way (on either side), or anyone who prefers not to delve more deeply into their identity.  I'm only pointing out that if you truly feel you are a lesbian in any world, and want to explore this facet of your life, it's more beneficial to interact with actual women and lesbians who have gone through this experience.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be saying that trans women are not "real women" because they have not gone through the experience of actually being women, growing up as women, experiencing life from day one as a woman.

You seem to be saying its a ROLE they can get good at with practice

If I misunderstood you, feel free to correct me

 

Edited March 13 by BilliJo Aldrin
changed stuff