Neck seam post #729

[Orwar]

6 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

Something Orwar said about light and complexity made so much make sense; even brick (prim) walls let light through in SL.

   Depends on the type of lighting, too. Point lights go through everything, even prims, only projector lights are 'stopped' by prims - and other meshes, but complex shapes (such as a mesh head) doesn't always do it perfectly as calculating the lighting in real-time to such a high level of precision would be .. Kinda rough on the system.

   And by complexity I don't mean the number of stuff SL says it has and makes you a jellydoll to others if you go beyond their limit - but rather the silhouette being rather irregular, and ever-changing as we move. 

   A prime example are avatar ears. If you use a sky setting with no light, and only have one projector light at the right side of your face, the left ear will often still be lit up. Like this:

   The eyeball and ear, as well as the piercings, and hair behind the head 'shouldn't' be lit by the projector, but because the mesh is so dense around there, it kind of just stops asking whether the light is interrupted or not and just goes by whether or not the faces are at all facing the light source. Even a prim cube will struggle to do it 'right' if the mesh is partially lit by the source (the hair, in this case).

[Wulfie Reanimator]

The root cause of the dreaded neck seam is mismatched vertex-normals at the edge where the two objects are joined. The normals of a mesh determine how light shading works, and a normal map can alter it per-pixel.

Mesh bodies are made of dozens of separate objects, but you never see seams between the pieces. This is because there is no discrepancy between the normals where each piece is joined. The same could be done between a mesh head and body, but that would require devkits with accurate topology and normals (which are three things any creator is lucky to get legitimately).

Edited March 12 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Ceka Cianci]

On 3/6/2024 at 1:09 PM, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Isn't this a 'known issue' with belleza bodies or was that just freya?

 

Former post deleted.

Never mind.. I was thinking material layer, but I guess that's not it I guess..

 

 

Edited March 12 by Ceka Cianci

[PheebyKatz]

4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

The root cause of the dreaded neck seam is mismatched vertex-normals at the edge where the two objects are joined. The normals of a mesh determine how light shading works, and a normal map can alter it per-pixel.

Mesh bodies are made of dozens of separate objects, but you never see seams between the pieces. This is because there is no discrepancy between the normals where each piece is joined. The same could be done between a mesh head and body, but that would require devkits with accurate topology and normals (which are three things any creator is lucky to get legitimately).

I think that if it weren't for the necessity of mesh head diversity, this problem would be easy enough to solve, just by making a body with the head already on, and slicing it at the neck and waist to make the necessary seams for the 3 UV maps. Map it all on out one square, export each part's UV map by selecting it separately and good to go.

But yeah. Separately-modeled heads, and all.

[Ceka Cianci]

On 3/6/2024 at 9:57 AM, Wesley Spengler said:

Before I say another word about it, I'll say that I'm using current release items, and I've already read other posts here, watched videos, read blog posts, etc. about this issue, and yet — here we are, with yet another post on this oft-discussed problem (with my apologies for dredging it up yet again). 

Using newly-acquired and current versions of:

• Belleza Jake body
• LeLutka Wade EvoX head
• Not Found tan body skin (offered as a full-body skin vs. a tattoo layer)
• Avi-Glam NF-matched tan head skin

In most lighting environments, the neck seam is barely noticeable, but it's there, and in some lighting environments, especially with colored lighting, it's an utter disaster that makes me wish for the older, simpler days. Here's an example:

@Rowan Amore mentioned in an older post that layer ordering is a potential cause, but since the Not Found skin is a full body one, it appears unrelated. @Persephone Emerald mentioned neck size mismatch, but it appears that's applicable only to female avatars. I've also read that the graphics shadow settings can affect this, but I see no difference between None and anything else. And finally, I know gloss settings can affect this too, but playing around with that between the head and body hasn't seemed to change anything, even when I completely remove it. 

I get this sick, sinking feeling that I'm missing something fundamental. This is even more frustrating because all the demo versions of skins seems to not just have "demo" markings but embedded UV map overlays intentionally left in-place, which masked everything and did not allow me to even see that there was an issue before purchase — and I suspect that this is at least in part due to using two different vendors for the head and body skins (despite being marketed as being directly compatible).

Hoping someone with way more men's mesh body experience than I have can shine a light on where I went wrong. (Ideally a light that doesn't make the neck seam even more visible. 🤣)

Or, perhaps, clarify that yeah, this is life in the mesh body era; get over it. 🙄

I'm wondering if the Jake body was ever updated to universal standard neck sizes.

 

 

[Wesley Spengler]

11 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I'm wondering if the Jake body was ever updated to universal standard neck sizes.

Yeah, Skell mentioned on his blog that it was back in Fall 2021. (In fairness, he did not use those exact words; he mentions "universal neck" later in the article, and the update to the article strongly implies it.)  

[Ceka Cianci]

15 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

Yeah, Skell mentioned on his blog that it was back in Fall 2021. (In fairness, he did not use those exact words; he mentions "universal neck" later in the article, and the update to the article strongly implies it.)  

Ya he was talking about the same thing.  Some call it standard neck or universal.. I just put the whole thing out there in my post, but it's mostly shortened when people talk about it..

Don't feel too bad though.. I bought one of their GenX bodies when they came out and have a neck seam problem any time I wear the material layer, because they jacked the shine all the way up to the seam instead of fading it out before the seam.. So I have an expensive  paper weight in my inventory now...lol

 

[Wesley Spengler]

20 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

So I have an expensive  paper weight in my inventory now...

Ugh... Just what we all need more of... (Not.)

Well, at least since turning-off Blend mode on the Alpha tab, it really is pretty much invisible even in challenging light. But what a pain this stuff is, especially for a returning user, with such a steep learning curve. 

[Dorientje Woller]

And how have you:

1. Activated the bom function on head and body. May sound stupid to ask it but I have spend last Sunday hours helping out somebody that hadn't activated the BOM function of a LOGO X head for months after getting it and wondered why she had a neck seam and wasn't able to change the skin of the head.

2. When it comes to skins that come with 2 layers (head & body separated), have you started with the body layer first and then the head layer or did you took a reversed action (head layer first and then body layer). The first procedure may get you rid of the neck seam as most, not all, head layers tend to have a build in neck fade that spreads to the shoulders of the body, whereas the body layer stops at the neck.

[Wesley Spengler]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

1. Activated the bom function on head and body.

Definitely correctly in BOM mode on both. 

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

2. When it comes to skins that come with 2 layers (head & body separated), have you started with the body layer first

Yeah, worked through that as well. I'm using the Not Found body skin, which is full body layer (not just tattoo layer), so ordering isn't even possible of course, then the Avi-Glam head skin is tattoo layer as you'd expect. Boston Blaisdale pointed-out in one of his videos how to order the layers (things are so much more involved since I was last in SL), which was of course essential for things like body hair additions. 

Appreciate the additional thoughts on things to check. Alpha set to Blend in the Belleza HUD was the major error in the end.

[Katherine Heartsong]

Glad it's worked out for you @Wesley Spengler and welcome back.

This whole thing would be solved by a more robust character/avatar creation editor (which would then require SL to have a better clothing system), but alas, let's stay 15+ years behind the times and use that as a marketing feature while others do it so much better.

 

[Wesley Spengler]

2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

This whole thing would be solved by a more robust character/avatar creation editor (which would then require SL to have a better clothing system), but alas, let's stay 15+ years behind the times and use that as a marketing feature while others do it so much better.

Such a good point, and cool examples, too. 

I have to say I empathize with LL on the position they're in. Surely it has to feel like, "damned if we do, damned if we don't." The community — the residents here — are (understandably) passionate, vocal, and want the cake of new capabilities while still eating the legacy content, legacy rendering, and complete compatibility with everything from 20 years ago. I see it both ways. But a mandate to "change nothing, improve everything" is sort of inherently impossible. 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

"change nothing, improve everything"

This is such a painfully good description.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

want the cake

Some of us want pie!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

13 hours ago, Wesley Spengler said:

But what a pain this stuff is, especially for a returning user, with such a steep learning curve. 

Welcome back! I agree with you on this wholeheartedly, but I'll go even further - even for those of us who already learned the ins and outs of working with this stuff and create avatars as a hobby these days - it's exhauuuuusting! Just all the little quirks of the system in general plus body updates and new releases and this not fitting that and this store dropping support for this and that. I think I've finally hit burnout and I'd be lying if I said I haven't been looking for another place to get my character design fix with a modern (but still flexible) character creator.

Speaking of which:

 

25 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

This whole thing would be solved by a more robust character/avatar creation editor (which would then require SL to have a better clothing system), but alas, let's stay 15+ years behind the times and use that as a marketing feature while others do it so much better.

Katherinnneeee - have you SEEN the stuff people are creating in Dragon's Dogma 2's new character creator? It was released on Steam for free before the game comes out (still there if you wanna play with it). People have made everything from Chucky to Kratos to Laezel to freakin' Beyoncé (!!!) with that thing and it all looks so good. There's an entire subreddit dedicated to it (r/fashiondogma) and a bunch of vids on YouTube, if you haven't seen it yet.

Don't even ask me how we'd incorporate a system like that into here, though. Probably have to make purchased items get stored in the creator tool instead of an inventory or something, I dunno.

[Orwar]

   A character creator wouldn't really change anything, though. We did get one, and just look at the avies coming out of that - makes the classic ginger starter avi look like a photo model in comparison. Expecting SL to magically look like a tech demo of what can be achieved with the latest Real Engine stuff because of 'avatar creator exists = true' is kind of silly. Neck seams are already a non-issue for anyone who knows how to turn on ALM to match their head and body materials, and buy a decent body and skin, with the caveat being that certain lighting conditions may still make things look off (but that's true in all cases, SL just has its own quirks with it).

   Even in suboptimal lighting conditions it's barely visible if you've done things right:

   Turning the light source into a projector, we can still see some weirdness happening with the 'wrong' shadow types enabled, like how the inner ear and the back of the collar on the opposite side of the head is lit up by a projector:

   And then we bump it up to Sun/Moon + Projectors, aaannd ..

   No more glow in the inner ear or collar! Just the weird shadows around the neck which are caused by the geometry of the neck - but a seam? Nah.

[Wesley Spengler]

4 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Some of us want pie!

See? You're my kind of person, Love... Lemon meringue, pumpkin, cherry, apple... Hell, even quiche! Pie FTW!!! 🎉

[Wesley Spengler]

4 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Just all the little quirks of the system in general plus body updates and new releases and this not fitting that and this store dropping support for this and that. I think I've finally hit burnout and I'd be lying if I said I haven't been looking for another place to get my character design fix with a modern (but still flexible) character creator

Oh, the fitting... 🙄 Trying to find a stupid pair of biker boots that fit Jake and work with and/or are sold with a pair of decent mesh jeans. I don't know how many demos I've tried, and how much time I've taken doing it, I've still got nothing that works. And don't get me (or any of us) started on how difficult it continues to be to find anything in SL... Between the marginal tools and the keyword stuffing, it's useless. (Preaching to the choir, no doubt.)

Edited March 13 by Wesley Spengler

[Ayashe Ninetails]

31 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

Oh, the fitting... 🙄 Trying to find a stupid pair of biker boots that fit Jake and work with and/or are sold with a pair of decent mesh jeans. I don't know how many demos I've tried, and how much time I've taken doing it, I've still got nothing that works. And don't get me (or any of us) started on how difficult it continues to be to find anything in SL... Between the marginal tools and the keyword stuffing, it's useless. (Preaching to the choir, no doubt.)

Yeeeeeeees!!! That says more about the nature of mesh in general probably (I've seen some clipping and clothing funkiness in other games, too), but it's soooo infuriating! Finding boots, especially for men, that play nicely with pants is a whole chore, LOL. I've found myself wearing womens boots (heels and all, don't even care) on occasion because they can sometimes (sometimes!!!) be slender enough at the ankle and above to fit below a pant leg. Not always, but sometimes you get lucky!

Finding clothes in general - that's not overly bad IF you make yourself your own list of stores, or just commit one to memory. Browse the sales on Seraphim enough (and remember to include events like ManlySL and others that don't appear there), and you get a general sense for where to find certain things at decent prices. Takes a lot of time to build that out, though.

Another good tip - browse Flickr and join a lot of SL fashion groups for men on there. You don't have to post photos to them - just browse. Lots of the contributors are good about listing their worn items and outfits in the description section. That's how I find a lot of things these days.

[Love Zhaoying]

Maybe they need to invent "screw-on heads", or a nice professional weld.

 I mean, how often do YOU meet someone in Second Life who "doesn't seem to have their head screwed on straight"?

Edited March 13 by Love Zhaoying

[Wesley Spengler]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I mean, how often do YOU meet someone in Second Life who "doesn't seem to have their head screwed on straight"?

Apart from myself, you mean?

[Wesley Spengler]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Finding clothes in general - that's not overly bad IF you make yourself your own list of stores, or just commit one to memory.

So funny you mention that. Once I got the mesh body and started working to find clothes, I did consult ManlySL and others, and started a OneNote note with the SLURLs (landmarks in inventory are too difficult to manage for me). It's grows into a categorized master list... Clothing, jewelry, furnishings, shoes, hair, etc. Good to know I stumbled upon the right idea. (As an aside, I don't seem to fully understand Seraphim I guess... Am I just not seeing the links? I guess if nothing else, I can make a list of vendor names and find them separately.)

Flickr is a great idea as well. I use it for my prolific RL photography; I'll create an account for my SL stuff. I need a place to post my photographic experiments anyway (other than here in the forums). 

Thanks for the continuing advice!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

4 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

So funny you mention that. Once I got the mesh body and started working to find clothes, I did consult ManlySL and others, and started a OneNote note with the SLURLs (landmarks in inventory are too difficult to manage for me). It's grows into a categorized master list... Clothing, jewelry, furnishings, shoes, hair, etc. Good to know I stumbled upon the right idea.

Yep, this is definitely the way to go. I memorize stores for everything. Comes somewhat naturally when you shop in-world too damn much like I tend to, lol. I'm pretty much at the point now where if I think "hmmm, I could use some fun animated plugs for my Andore gauged human ears...," I automatically know where to go without even searching (except for the store's SLURL). And that's very specific! For things like "shoes" or "nails" or a good evening gown," it's even faster to call up a list of places to hit in my head.

 

9 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

(As an aside, I don't seem to fully understand Seraphim I guess... Am I just not seeing the links? I guess if nothing else, I can make a list of vendor names and find them separately.)

That somewhat depends on the event or the format they use for it. If you click on the event name, you'll either see teleport links at the top for the main event sim itself, OR, if it's an in-store sale (like the weekend sales tend to be - Fifty Linden Friday, Happy Weekend, Saturday Sale, TMD Weekend, etc.), try clicking on the product photos and you should see a teleport link for the store in the popup.

 

13 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

Thanks for the continuing advice!

Very welcome! And yes, Flickr is a great resource for finding rare goodies. I've found some awesome shops by getting nosy about what people had on, lol.

[Wesley Spengler]

45 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

That somewhat depends on the event or the format they use for it. If you click on the event name, you'll either see teleport links at the top for the main event sim itself, OR, if it's an in-store sale (like the weekend sales tend to be - Fifty Linden Friday, Happy Weekend, Saturday Sale, TMD Weekend, etc.), try clicking on the product photos and you should see a teleport link for the store in the popup.

Ahhhh, OK. Not paying enough attention I think. Thanks for that! 

I think what so many sellers and shopping event people don't seem to realize is that not everyone is a seasoned veteran, or sees everything the way they do. Clear signage, clear websites, clear anything seems a little too much to ask for in SL a lot of the time. (Or, I'm an idiot, which is of course always possible.)

Thanks again!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

18 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

Ahhhh, OK. Not paying enough attention I think. Thanks for that! 

I think what so many sellers and shopping event people don't seem to realize is that not everyone is a seasoned veteran, or sees everything the way they do. Clear signage, clear websites, clear anything seems a little too much to ask for in SL a lot of the time. (Or, I'm an idiot, which is of course always possible.)

Thanks again!

Lol, no no, it's not just you at all! SL's learning curve (including everything surrounding it - navigating the shopping blogs and social sites and marketplace and in-world groups and all that) is masssssive! Took me months to learn all this stuff, and that's only because I love shopping, otherwise it would've taken longer I bet. Don't feel bad one bit. ❤️