Neck seam post #729

[Wesley Spengler]

Before I say another word about it, I'll say that I'm using current release items, and I've already read other posts here, watched videos, read blog posts, etc. about this issue, and yet — here we are, with yet another post on this oft-discussed problem (with my apologies for dredging it up yet again). 

Using newly-acquired and current versions of:

• Belleza Jake body
• LeLutka Wade EvoX head
• Not Found tan body skin (offered as a full-body skin vs. a tattoo layer)
• Avi-Glam NF-matched tan head skin

In most lighting environments, the neck seam is barely noticeable, but it's there, and in some lighting environments, especially with colored lighting, it's an utter disaster that makes me wish for the older, simpler days. Here's an example:

@Rowan Amore mentioned in an older post that layer ordering is a potential cause, but since the Not Found skin is a full body one, it appears unrelated. @Persephone Emerald mentioned neck size mismatch, but it appears that's applicable only to female avatars. I've also read that the graphics shadow settings can affect this, but I see no difference between None and anything else. And finally, I know gloss settings can affect this too, but playing around with that between the head and body hasn't seemed to change anything, even when I completely remove it. 

I get this sick, sinking feeling that I'm missing something fundamental. This is even more frustrating because all the demo versions of skins seems to not just have "demo" markings but embedded UV map overlays intentionally left in-place, which masked everything and did not allow me to even see that there was an issue before purchase — and I suspect that this is at least in part due to using two different vendors for the head and body skins (despite being marketed as being directly compatible).

Hoping someone with way more men's mesh body experience than I have can shine a light on where I went wrong. (Ideally a light that doesn't make the neck seam even more visible. 🤣)

Or, perhaps, clarify that yeah, this is life in the mesh body era; get over it. 🙄

[Persephone Emerald]

Maybe you can contact the skin maker or their CSR with a notecard about this problem? Drag a picture onto the notecard to attach it. 

I haven't done this with a skin issue, but I have for clothing issues. I think showing a picture helps the creator identify the problem more easily. Even if it's not a problem with the skin, they may be able to identify what the problem is, because I assume they have alot of experience with such issues.

One other possibility is that the head skin from Avi Glam just doesn't line up well with the body skin from Not Found. How does it look with a demo head skin from Not Found?

Edited March 6 by Persephone Emerald
To add

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

One other possibility is that the head skin from Avi Glam just doesn't line up well with the body skin from Not Found.

That line in the back certainly matches the shading on the head skin awfully well, as if it's a "haircut line" from the barber shop!

(Supporting your guess..not that I know much..)

[Rowan Amore]

Make sure materials are off on the body and head using their respective HUDs.

[Jenna Huntsman]

Go back to basics for a second -

Redeliver your body and head. Unpack the fresh copies, and wear them.

Is the seam still visible?

For example, my partner wearing the latest version of Jake and his head (LeLutka Quinn)

[SabrinaCooke]

A neck blender would help minimize that, too. There should be one to match your skin in one of the skin packs that you bought; if not, they have a pack of neck blender/faders at the NF store. The icon usually looks like a squiggly red line. Put that on after the head and body skin.

Edited March 6 by SabrinaCooke

[Orwar]

   Even if a body and head skin are by the same creator, or made to match, there's no guarantee whatsoever that the textures will actually align (how dare we expect such a thing? Don't you know that takes effort?!). If the fault is in the texture, you'll want to use a BOM neckblender. The neckblender needs to be above both skins in the layer order to function properly (Izzie's got them). If the fault is in the materials, there are a few things to check:

• Neck type - not all bodies have these, but when the universal neck was introduced some creators insisted on keeping both their old and the new, and so put neck type options in their HUD; I don't know about Jake as I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot p-- I don't use it. But check that, and if the options are there, simply try them through to see which one works for you.
• Material intensities - the more common and more easily fixed cause is when you have different material settings for the head and body. Just put the sliders in both the head and body to a point where the materials look good to you and blend with each other.
• Lighting - you can do everything right, and yet still there will be seams, shadows, and light passing through mesh (lighting in SL isn't exactly 'realistic', and complex mesh shapes tend to leak light a lot - heads being such a thing). 

[Wesley Spengler]

First, I really appreciate the responses. Let me address everything in one place:

@Persephone Emerald I think I'll do exactly that (notecard to the vendor), probably starting with Avi-Glam, and see what happens. I now regret going with an Avi-Glam head skin, but in truth, I do love the lips and some other features better than any Not Found head skin I've demoed (several). One issue with the Not Found demos? They left the UV mesh layer on when they output them, so it has the exact issue I mentioned... There's a white line at the seam, so you can't even judge the result from the demo. Having already bought one wrong head skin in error, and then the second I'm using, boy do I hate buying a third just to see if it solves the problem — but I might.

@Rowan Amore Thanks; I did try that (even going back to the same exact spot I took my photo, same environment settings), and no difference. 

@Jenna Huntsman Do you happen to know which skins he's using? Would be very useful to know if this problem doesn't happen for him.

@SabrinaCooke You would think so. I did go back to NF, grabbed the blenders, and tried them. Oddly enough, it barely made a difference, while obliterating the Adam's apple and muting the detail in that area (as one would probably expect). But, this does sort of suggest that the issue isn't really the skins, but rather the next point here...

@Orwar While I'd love to hear more about your strong feelings about Jake, your third bullet is ultimately the likely answer here, which is basically: It's just sorta the way it is in certain conditions, with certain settings, etc., etc. Somehow, I kinda thought so.

Bottom line, I'd love to spend another great big pile of Lindens to compare different bodies and heads and skins and whatever else in an effort to get a better result, but... Well, I really don't want to spend another great big pile of Lindens. Creating a decent avatar by today's standards, for those of us who want to do that sort of thing, seems like a great big trial-and-error effort of mixing and matching vendors' products, followed by crossing your fingers, saying prayers, burning incense, and meditating... then realizing none of that helps, while getting your wallet back out might... Except it probably won't. 

Maybe a leather dog collar at the precise location of the seam is the answer? 🤪  Alas, he's not into that scene...

[Love Zhaoying]

It sounds as if..maybe if you find out this only happens with some headskins (brands) just avoid those brands - unless you can contact those skin brand creators / sellers and ask THEM what their own fixsolve is. Mayperhaps. Just an idea!

 

Edited March 6 by Love Zhaoying
Changed word "only" to "own"

[SabrinaCooke]

6 minutes ago, Wesley Spengler said:

First, I really appreciate the responses. Let me address everything in one place:

@Persephone Emerald I think I'll do exactly that (notecard to the vendor), probably starting with Avi-Glam, and see what happens. I now regret going with an Avi-Glam head skin, but in truth, I do love the lips and some other features better than any Not Found head skin I've demoed (several). One issue with the Not Found demos? They left the UV mesh layer on when they output them, so it has the exact issue I mentioned... There's a white line at the seam, so you can't even judge the result from the demo. Having already bought one wrong head skin in error, and then the second I'm using, boy do I hate buying a third just to see if it solves the problem — but I might.

@Rowan Amore Thanks; I did try that (even going back to the same exact spot I took my photo, same environment settings), and no difference. 

@Jenna Huntsman Do you happen to know which skins he's using? Would be very useful to know if this problem doesn't happen for him.

@SabrinaCooke You would think so. I did go back to NF, grabbed the blenders, and tried them. Oddly enough, it barely made a difference, while obliterating the Adam's apple and muting the detail in that area (as one would probably expect). But, this does sort of suggest that the issue isn't really the skins, but rather the next point here...

@Orwar While I'd love to hear more about your strong feelings about Jake, your third bullet is ultimately the likely answer here, which is basically: It's just sorta the way it is in certain conditions, with certain settings, etc., etc. Somehow, I kinda thought so.

Bottom line, I'd love to spend another great big pile of Lindens to compare different bodies and heads and skins and whatever else in an effort to get a better result, but... Well, I really don't want to spend another great big pile of Lindens. Creating a decent avatar by today's standards, for those of us who want to do that sort of thing, seems like a great big trial-and-error effort of mixing and matching vendors' products, followed by crossing your fingers, saying prayers, burning incense, and meditating... then realizing none of that helps, while getting your wallet back out might... Except it probably won't. 

Maybe a leather dog collar at the precise location of the seam is the answer? 🤪  Alas, he's not into that scene...

I hear ya. It might be worth joining the NF Discord, or sending a notecard to Dean Kiyori. He's the CSR for NF (also one of the CSRs for Lelutka), and he's very helpful. 

If you need an invite to the Discord, feel free to hit me up in PMs. 

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

Isn't this a 'known issue' with belleza bodies or was that just freya?

 

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Isn't this a 'known issue' with belleza bodies or was that just freya?

 

I always somehow dealt with it, with my Jake (whether seam fix or matching skin). Maybe I don't try enough skins to experience it?

[EmmaAsht0n]

Not Found has free neck blends for both their male and female skins. They're here: http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Not Found Mainstore/192/139/228

It's at the very back of the store on the wall with all the body skins (approx in the middle of that wall). [edit: scratch that. just noticed you've already picked them]

Also try to use the follwing windlights:

• Nam's Optimal Skin and Prim
• CalWL

Edited March 6 by EmmaAsht0n

[Orwar]

   So it turns out that Jake has options for different alpha modes, which could also be a potential offender; you may want to try your way through them to see if that helps any:

   Also, it may be worth hitting the 'BoM' button just to make sure you haven't accidentally put an applier on.

Edited March 6 by Orwar

[Persephone Emerald]

19 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

Isn't this a 'known issue' with belleza bodies or was that just freya?

I wore Freya and my guy alt wears Jake. I haven't noticed a neck seem since I switched from Genus to Lelutka, from LucyBody to Maitreya for my alt Tasha, and from the first set of 7DS EvoX skins to any more recent skins.

[Wesley Spengler]

2 hours ago, SabrinaCooke said:

I hear ya. It might be worth joining the NF Discord, or sending a notecard to Dean Kiyori. He's the CSR for NF (also one of the CSRs for Lelutka), and he's very helpful. 

If you need an invite to the Discord, feel free to hit me up in PMs. 

@SabrinaCooke, thank you! I'm not a Discord user (yet); might be a good time to try. But I think I'll write-up a notecard, upload the image to SL so I can reference it there, and reach out to Dean, as well as the contact at Avi-Glam, and just see what they have to say about it. At least after the responses here, I can cite a fairly long and comprehensive list of stuff I've tried! 😉 

I think the main issue is that I love the NF body skin — far better than the Velour I also tried, IMHO — and I do actually REALLY like the Avi-Glam face, especially the realistic and beautiful lips. (Funny the details one notices, eh?) I guess I'll figure it out... or accept the tradeoff. 

[Wesley Spengler]

3 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It sounds as if..maybe if you find out this only happens with some headskins (brands) just avoid those brands

Yeah, Love, totally agree. Let's see how much extra cash I'm willing to spend on a solution... 😉 

[Wesley Spengler]

2 hours ago, Orwar said:

So it turns out that Jake has options for different alpha modes, which could also be a potential offender

Next-up on my list. Thanks much.

[Wesley Spengler]

4 hours ago, Orwar said:

So it turns out that Jake has options for different alpha modes, which could also be a potential offender; you may want to try your way through them to see if that helps any

@Orwar, well, whaddaya know. It would appear that having it in Blend mode (as I did) makes the issue about 10x worse. Changing to Mask or None doesn't make the problem go completely away, but it's dramatically improved in the specific case I showed, and in normal lighting, it's really tough to see unless you cam-in more than anyone has a right to. 🤪

Perfection being the enemy of good, I think it's improved to a degree that I can (and will) live with it. Really appreciate that suggestion.

Thanks again to everyone who replied with ideas and thoughts on this.

Edited March 7 by Wesley Spengler
Had one more thought...

[Orwar]

   Well, there you go! .. Still can't understand why anyone would ever want to put their body into alpha blend mode (unless you're making a semi-transparent ghost avi, I guess?), but .. 

[Wesley Spengler]

1 hour ago, Orwar said:

Well, there you go!

You learn something every day... Thanks again.

And how it got set that way I couldn't tell you; one thing I detest about the Belleza mesh stuff is that there's no documentation (that I've found, anyway). LeLutka at least has that awesome PDF you can download from their website that documents everything on their HUD (although it, too, could use some improvement). 

[Dorientje Woller]

@Wesley Spengler Have you set the sliders/values of materials/shine/intensity on the head and body at "zero"? Those settings may cause that neckline too.

[Wesley Spengler]

3 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Have you set the sliders/values of materials/shine/intensity on the head and body at "zero"?

Thanks for the reply, Dorientje. And yes I have, as this specific thing caused a VERY obvious problem when I was using a Senra Blake head transitionally with the Belleza Jake body. Any of the "extras" enabled was a neck seam nightmare.  🙂  But since going LeLutka, at least in the challenging lighting situations where I've been struggling, it hasn't made any noticeable difference. I did try again after mostly solving my original problem after turning alpha mode off of Blend (see my last post), and what little seaming issues remain aren't changed with the setting of the extras. While I wish I could get it just a bit better still, it really is nitpicking at this point, as it's pretty darned good... I think what remains is just slight inaccuracies between the two brands of skins (Not Found body, Avi-Glam head). 

[PheebyKatz]

Something Orwar said about light and complexity made so much make sense; even brick (prim) walls let light through in SL.

Heads tend to have way more complexity than bodies do, so even if everything is matched perfectly, as far as textures and materials, lighting can still screw with neck seams, especially if the neck stump of the head has more triangles than the (body's) neck where they meet. It might not make a huge difference, but it's still a difference.

Now I'm wondering if maybe a multi-layered cylinder of prims might not work as a hidden insert inside the neck to help avoid the lighting bleedthrough discrepancy.

It might feel cheap, but I bet it'd help, at least in "extreme" lighting conditions.

Edited March 12 by PheebyKatz

[Wesley Spengler]

24 minutes ago, PheebyKatz said:

Heads tend to have way more complexity than bodies do, so even if everything is matched perfectly, as far as textures and materials, lighting can still screw with neck seams, especially if the neck stump of the head has more triangles than the (body's) neck where they meet. It might not make a huge difference, but it's still a difference.

Yeah, good point. At the end of the day, there are simply imperfections here... In the two 3D objects you're attempting to make appear as one, in the lighting models, in the rendering, in all sorts of stuff. I just wish it hadn't been so easy to (accidentally, probably) click one single setting that threw it off and made me chase my tail. 

I still blame Belleza somewhat for so poorly documenting their HUD. The entire alpha mode thing is about as clear as mud, and compared what LeLutka are doing with their HUD (and their documentation for it), it seems Belleza is overdue for a refresh.