Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return

[elleevelyn]

16 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

That's what I'd do if I had a SL mega yacht 

is a few barges that are mod and free. Could get one of them and make a party barge and sail the seas looking for other party people 😻

 

[Rat Luv]

4 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

is a few barges that are mod and free. Could get one of them and make a party barge and sail the seas looking for other party people 😻

Hmm...could be a SL business idea, as an alternative to clubs 💥

[elleevelyn]

4 minutes ago, Rat Luv said:

Hmm...could be a SL business idea, as an alternative to clubs 💥

Linden not be happy if the owner was soliciting for tips on the public land. Public land adhere to the Welcome Area rules which bans soliciting

if doing this tho for fun then is a legitimate use of public land. The main purpose of public land is to provide spaces where people can meet and get to know each other if/when they choose to do so

[Zalificent Corvinus]

1 hour ago, elleevelyn said:

i will address this one point

people do this now on the Blake Sae. Park their mega boat next to another mega boat, alts sitting. Then they go back and forth on each others boats and party up, along with every else who have come to party

So, you're saying that your suggested changes are completely un-needed, so that means there is NO need to do any of this nonsense, and we can drop these ideas in the trashcan.

Great.

 

[Anna Nova]

I am not reading all the pages of this thread, but this is what you do:

Create an alt, give it a tiny transparent body, rezz it and get it to sit on your boat.  Rez your avatar and wander about the deck...

Simples.

Edited January 31 by Anna Nova

[Anna Nova]

2 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

So, you're saying that your suggested changes are completely un-needed, so that means there is NO need to do any of this nonsense, and we can drop these ideas in the trashcan.

Great.

 

Can we drop the 7 page thread in it too?   Please!

[Love Zhaoying]

I thought of a topical song!

 

[elleevelyn]

3 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

So, you're saying that your suggested changes are completely un-needed, so that means there is NO need to do any of this nonsense, and we can drop these ideas in the trashcan.

Great.

 

no

what I am saying is that a scripted solution can do everything that parcel Auto-return can do and more. For the widest number of people having more choices in how to manage their land, is better than having fewer choices. Even tho as an individual land owner we might think the way we have chosen is the best way. Which it is, for us as the individual most concerned.

 

[Qie Niangao]

Just in passing, and I don't know the quantitative details: when introduced, the llReturnObjectsBy*() functions were said to be tightly throttled, not intended for broad anti-griefer use. They'd be fine for this application, but the auto-return function may also be needed to tidy up after griefers. (Slightly tricky to enable on group-deeded land: script must be group-deeded too, and obtain PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS from a group owner.)

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, elleevelyn said:

no

what I am saying is that a scripted solution can do everything that parcel Auto-return can do and more. For the widest number of people having more choices in how to manage their land, is better than having fewer choices. Even tho as an individual land owner we might think the way we have chosen is the best way. Which it is, for us as the individual most concerned.

 

No, that's NOT what you've been saying at all.

What you have been saying is 

"Let's create an over complicated solution to a non-problem, that benefits almost nobody, and is a griefer's/squatter's WET DREAM, and get the LLDWP to then force it down everyone's throats by allowing indefinite object littering on all LLDWP land, everywhere"

 

There is absolutely NO need for the LLDWP to even consider this.

IF a private land owner, should decide to disable auto return and use a n over-complicated scripted parking meter system, then THAT private land owner can script ( or get somebody else to script ) it for themselves.

 

NO pro-griefer / pro-squatter right to park a 4-bedroom-house-mobile in the middle of an LLDWP parcel.

No-Object-Entry ON, Auto-Return ON, Auto-Return time 5 mins.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

 

 

NO pro-griefer / pro-squatter right to park a 4-bedroom-house-mobile in the middle of an LLDWP parcel.

 

Ooo, you could do that now. Just need a bot named Calcifer in the fireplace.

Thanks!

[Love Zhaoying]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

Just in passing, and I don't know the quantitative details: when introduced, the llReturnObjectsBy*() functions were said to be tightly throttled, not intended for broad anti-griefer use. They'd be fine for this application, but the auto-return function may also be needed to tidy up after griefers. (Slightly tricky to enable on group-deeded land: script must be group-deeded too, and obtain PERMISSION_RETURN_OBJECTS from a group owner.)

Interesting, I forgot those functions existed. But, I never needed them (and still don't).

 

[PheebyKatz]

On 1/28/2024 at 8:39 PM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

You sit on your self replicating griefer prim, you edit it past the "no object entry" restriction because "vehicles with seated avatars" are exempt from that, then you stand up and push the "start griefing" button, and your many many many self replicating griefer prims do not get auto returned because you are "on the same parcel".

I have a motorcycle that's made to have parts fall off if you hit something, and even while I'm seated on it, I get notices telling me my motorcycle parts have been returned because I don't have rezz rights on the mainland.

If you know some kind of sorcery that gets past this, let me know, so my motorcycle can work the way it was made to. Otherwise, I think you're just blowing smoke up everyone's backsides for dramatic effect.

I'm diagnosed paranoid and I don't even fantasize that hard.

As for auto-returns, I've had plenty of times where I was able to get off my motorcycle and get back onto it, but I think it depends on where you're at. I actually made a setting for my bike that makes it delete itself just so I don't leave bikes stranded on the mainland if I get logged.

I've also found abandoned bikes and cars on the bottoms of canals and harbors, on public land. I don't think every region has the same autoreturn settings.

Edited February 2 by PheebyKatz

[Theresa Tennyson]

3 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I have a motorcycle that's made to have parts fall off if you hit something, and even while I'm seated on it, I get notices telling me my motorcycle parts have been returned because I don't have rezz rights on the mainland.

If you know some kind of sorcery that gets past this, let me know, so my motorcycle can work the way it was made to. Otherwise, I think you're just blowing smoke up everyone's backsides for dramatic effect.

I'm diagnosed paranoid and I don't even fantasize that hard.

As for auto-returns, I've had plenty of times where I was able to get off my motorcycle and get back onto it, but I think it depends on where you're at. I actually made a setting for my bike that makes it delete itself just so I don't leave bikes stranded on the mainland if I get logged.

I've also found abandoned bikes and cars on the bottoms of canals and harbors, on public land. I don't think every region has the same autoreturn settings.

Upon checking, object-entry off doesn't return vehicles if auto-return is off. Linden Lab-owned settings are all over the map - the roads near my family town are set to object-entry on, autoreturn 10 minutes, but the abandoned land nearby is set to no-object-entry, autoreturn off.

[Qie Niangao]

3 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

If you know some kind of sorcery that gets past this…

The way I was reading that, the sorcery was the OP's proposed "let them stand up" approach to exempting vehicles from auto-return while the driver has stood up and is tuning the carburetor etc., not the way the world works now.

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I actually made a setting for my bike that makes it delete itself just so I don't leave bikes stranded on the mainland if I get logged.

Yeah, I've done that too, usually making it turn Temporary when I stand, but it's not infallible. If it gets trapped on no-script land without auto-return, it'll be stuck forever unless it's Temporary from the start but then it'll poof the instant the driver stands.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I have a motorcycle that's made to have parts fall off if you hit something, and even while I'm seated on it, I get notices telling me my motorcycle parts have been returned because I don't have rezz rights on the mainland.

No, you don't.

You have a vehicle that's scripted to HIDE some parts, and rez separate copies of them as prim litter, probably either as "temporary rez" or with a llDie scripted self delete.

 

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

If you know some kind of sorcery that gets past this, let me know, so my motorcycle can work the way it was made to. Otherwise, I think you're just blowing smoke up everyone's backsides for dramatic effect.

You're accusing me of lying, because you have NO sodding clue what you are talking about, your vehicle doesn't work the way you think it does. In fact, YOU are the one "blowing smoke" because you don't know enough about how any of this works to have a valid opinion.

 

The ability to drive a vehicle onto land set to no-object-entry, isn't "blowing smoke", it's a cold hard fact. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be able to drive your bike along many LLDWP roads.

The section you quoted, was pointing out to the OP exactly how their proposed "improvement", namely "no auto return if the driver is standing next to it" would work in practice.

 

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I'm diagnosed paranoid and I don't even fantasize that hard.

Says the person who fantasises that "bits of her bike actually fall off".

I'd diagnose you as appallingly ignorant of how parcel settings, vehicles, and alpha hiding and scripted object rezzing ACTUALLY work.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

If we had "parking meters", you could pay a L$ for longer auto-return on your vehicle!

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 hours ago, PheebyKatz said:

I have a motorcycle that's made to have parts fall off if you hit something, and even while I'm seated on it, I get notices telling me my motorcycle parts have been returned because I don't have rezz rights on the mainland.

.

 

16 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

No, you don't.

You have a vehicle that's scripted to HIDE some parts, and rez separate copies of them as prim litter, probably either as "temporary rez" or with a llDie scripted self delete.

 

And I hear Father Christmas doesn't really deliver your presents by coming down the chimbly.

(Most of them are delivered by elves who drop down ropes from a giant spaceship - EVERYONE WATCH ARTHUR CHRISTMAS IT'S AWESOME!)

[Extrude Ragu]

Left the thread alone a while to get on with some work, I haven't caught up with comments yet but I've had some further thoughts since then:

I thought about the LI topic and the conclusion I've come to is that LI of vehicles entering a parcel is already unlimited, so parcel owners being allowed to choose to let people walk out of their vehicle is not creating a new problem in that regard, it's just an existing problem that we already have anyway.

Trouble makers dragging vehicles over a parcel border and standing outside can be fixed by having logic in the simulator to hook the event a vehicle changes parcel without its owner, and consider that vehicle to no longer be their personal vehicle, making it no longer immune to auto-return.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Trouble makers dragging vehicles over a parcel border and standing outside can be fixed by having logic in the simulator to hook the event a vehicle changes parcel without its owner, and consider that vehicle to no longer be their personal vehicle, making it no longer immune to auto-return.

Good idea, that way unmanned vehicles can't be used as griefing tools (if they were). 

Like in movies, where someone puts a brick on the accelerator pedal and gets out of the car, then the car careens into a target.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

43 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

 so parcel owners being allowed to choose to let people walk out of their vehicle is not creating a new problem in that regard, it's just an existing problem that we already have anyway.

Yes, the problem being the moment the driver stands up, the LI of the vehicle gets applied to the parcel, because it's NO LONGER treated as a vehicle.

Own a 2048 parcel, for your store, allow two over-entitled drivers to park their trucks out front, goodbye 230 LI, out of your 750 for the parcel. Somehow I can't see that many merchants wanting to see massive amounts of their LI being sucked down by over-entitled vehicle fanatics, nor can I see merchants rushing to buy more land and pay more tier, in case a "customer" want's to pull up in a high LI vehicle.

Merchants want to CUT operating costs, not increase them for no gain in trade revenue.

 

47 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Trouble makers dragging vehicles over a parcel border and standing outside can be fixed by having logic in the simulator to hook the event a vehicle changes parcel without its owner, and consider that vehicle to no longer be their personal vehicle, making it no longer immune to auto-return.

Less complicated to leave things as they are now, stand up, vehicle auto returned.

No need for a complicated solution to a non-problem.

No need to ramp up merchants operating costs because a handful of people scream "but mah immersion! Why can't I illegally park anywhere i want?".

 

53 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I thought about the LI topic and the conclusion I've come to is that LI of vehicles entering a parcel is already unlimited

But it's NOT.

There are KNOWN sections of road, designed and built way back before mesh when vehicles were limited to prims only, and LI of 32 or less, where you CANNOT drive a modern mesh vehicle through that section because there isn't enough LI allowance on that short section of road for the vehicle to enter the parcel.

 

@Qie Niangao even mentioned this in an earlier post, @animats has posted about one of those corners prior to this in another thread.

 

Every time you "think" ( and I question your use of that word ) about this bad idea, you invariably assume things are not as they are.

You thought vehicles bounced off no-object-entry, you thought vehicles couldn't have LI over 32, you thought vehicles with LI over 32 were "rare niche market not used by most", you thought vehicles don't use LI.

Every time you "thought" something, you were WRONG.

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Yes, the problem being the moment the driver stands up, the LI of the vehicle gets applied to the parcel, because it's NO LONGER treated as a vehicle.

I played with this a bit and it's weirder than I expected. A sat-upon object's Land Impact actually applies to the parcel's total land impact right away, when it enters the parcel. If that puts the parcel over its owner's region capacity, one of two things will happen:

1. If it entered the parcel from the same region, it will stay and About Land notes how many "will be deleted" to get back under the limit. While over the limit, it's impossible to rez anything on the parcel. When the seated avatar stands, the sat-upon object is returned immediately.
2. If it entered from an adjacent region, the sitter will be unseated and the object immediately returned.

At least that's what it looks like in my testing. I thought I found an edge case where it's possible to enter from another region and have it behave like #1 instead of #2, but I can't figure out how to repeat that.

Anyway, the point is the current behavior means the parcel's land impact is affected right away and will prevent rezzing beyond the diminished available capacity.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

I played with this a bit and it's weirder than I expected. A sat-upon object's Land Impact actually applies to the parcel's total land impact right away, when it enters the parcel. If that puts the parcel over its owner's region capacity, one of two things will happen:

1. If it entered the parcel from the same region, it will stay and About Land notes how many "will be deleted" to get back under the limit. While over the limit, it's impossible to rez anything on the parcel. When the seated avatar stands, the sat-upon object is returned immediately.
2. If it entered from an adjacent region, the sitter will be unseated and the object immediately returned.

At least that's what it looks like in my testing. I thought I found an edge case where it's possible to enter from another region and have it behave like #1 instead of #2, but I can't figure out how to repeat that.

Anyway, the point is the current behavior means the parcel's land impact is affected right away and will prevent rezzing beyond the diminished available capacity.

Surprising! I think a lot of us assumed the parcel LI was unaffected until the sitter unsat!

[Qie Niangao]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Surprising! I think a lot of us assumed the parcel LI was unaffected until the sitter unsat!

Yeah, I was surprised, too, and wonder if it used to behave differently. Also, it wouldn't hurt if somebody else replicated the results. I used a couple small parcels (for the limited region capacity) directly across a region border and of course it's always possible something specific makes them behave as they did.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Yeah, I was surprised, too, and wonder if it used to behave differently. Also, it wouldn't hurt if somebody else replicated the results. I used a couple small parcels (for the limited region capacity) directly across a region border and of course it's always possible something specific makes them behave as they did.

Like, is it physical, is it in "vehicle status", etc.