Honey Puddles Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) ... Edited May 11 by Honey Puddles 4 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 (edited) On 5/11/2024 at 5:07 AM, Coffee Pancake said: They aren't going to be fixed. At this point the LL problems with PBR have become Firestorm's problems with PBR, Firestorm are left looking bad for delaying a major platform advancement. Meanwhile huge issues with PBR that have existed since day one, and no one will be able to ignore, are still present. In all viewers. Firestorm need to release and just say "we tried". This is a sad assessment of LL and its developers. LL develop a feature...LL release the feature broken and only half developed...FS devs release a "best guess" fixed viewer...FS get pilloried for LL's failure. Question: Why do LL release broken stuff? Edited May 12 by Aishagain 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flea Yatsenko Posted May 11 Share Posted May 11 18 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said: Firestorm devs are not "underestimating how big PBR will be." There are major issues that need to be fixed. For example: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-33607 There are always going to be major issues to be fixed. And as more stuff ends up on the grid, the more it's going to fragment between PBR and non PBR. I think the best choice for firestorm right now is to publicly release the PBR viewer, put in some notice on startup about PBR being new and having bugs, and install the pbr version into a different folder and not treat it like an upgrade but a separate version so people can use both. The change to PBR is going to be messy. I wish it launched in a better state but things are going to be fragmented. There were mesh devs in here saying they wouldn't have any fallback textures and were only going PBR. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 (edited) On 5/11/2024 at 11:22 PM, Flea Yatsenko said: The change to PBR is going to be messy. I wish it launched in a better state but things are going to be fragmented. There were mesh devs in here saying they wouldn't have any fallback textures and were only going PBR. And again I ask, in view of this attitude WHY DO LL persist on releasing such broken features to SL? Yes, PBR would be a great advance for SL...if it worked as intended. It does NOT. And before you ask - Yes I have run the latest LL viewer. It is no better and in some(several) ways not as good as Firestorm. ETA: I went to the Arkipelago store on the Last Stop region at Fantasy Faire. What I saw there made me realise that in most cases PBR is no improvement over what can be done at present in SL (And yes I used both the release viewer 6.6.17 and the Beta 7.1.7 yadda (both FS) and I saw nothing that significantly improved my experience in ANY way. Edited May 13 by Aishagain additional info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 On 5/10/2024 at 8:55 PM, Flea Yatsenko said: We still have what, at least a year before non PBR viewers are blocked? But they'll be increasingly obsoleted by content that's only PBR-visible. To wit: Quote To ease the workload for creators building for SL21B (opening on Friday, June 21st, 2024), Linden Lab has stipulated they do not have to include Blinn-Phong (aka “SL legacy materials”) fallbacks in their build if they opt to use glTF PBR materials. This means viewers, in keeping with the expected behaviour, should only display the glTF materials, and should not under any circumstance attempt to display any fallback (as doing so will result in content rendering as grey or white objects). This is likely to impact any viewers that do not support PBR materials (and content will not look “right”). per ModemWorld blog's summary of Friday's TPV Developer meeting. Content that also has the Blinn-Phong fallback materials (or only those materials) will still be fine, but this greenlights omitting those materials and using solely PBR materials, for expediency. I don't blame Firestorm for not wanting to handle all the support questions that will arise from a flawed PBR implementation, but as anybody can attest who's watched the beta group chat scroll by, there would be plenty of support questions even if PBR worked flawlessly. The better the product the less the support demand, but also the later and more urgent that demand, so release timing is a tradeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 28 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: But they'll be increasingly obsoleted by content that's only PBR-visible. To wit: per ModemWorld blog's summary of Friday's TPV Developer meeting. Content that also has the Blinn-Phong fallback materials (or only those materials) will still be fine, but this greenlights omitting those materials and using solely PBR materials, for expediency. I don't blame Firestorm for not wanting to handle all the support questions that will arise from a flawed PBR implementation, but as anybody can attest who's watched the beta group chat scroll by, there would be plenty of support questions even if PBR worked flawlessly. The better the product the less the support demand, but also the later and more urgent that demand, so release timing is a tradeoff. They really need to have a lot of support material ready, and most of it is going to be "this isn't us, here is a link to the linden feedback page" Sure, PBR can do awesome things, but most of the time, it's not a step up with the world as it stands, and most of that world is never going to stand any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 I'm quite happy using the PBR beta even if I'm not consuming much/any PBR content simply because the performance is so much higher than non-PBR releases, it's a very pronounced difference. Bugs are relatively minor but I can understand them not wanting to release something with even minor bugs and some of them are quite noticeable like the water issue despite not really affecting functionality much. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nya Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 https://isfirestormpbryet.com stuck together a PSA 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Fizzle Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 55 minutes ago, Stupid Elf said: https://isfirestormpbryet.com stuck together a PSA 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stupid Elf said: https://isfirestormpbryet.com stuck together a PSA Err... There is one missing PBR-capable viewer (in excess of ALM and forward rendering modes, still working too), in this list, viewer which first PBR experimental release happened on the 2023-07-29 and first stable PBR release happened on the 2023-12-02... Edited May 13 by Henri Beauchamp 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nya Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 oh what, that's impressive Henri, updated it might be cached, so a hard refresh should update that (for anyone that's already visited it today) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) And @Whirly Fizzle: this baby Firebird is just too cute (*) and makes me jealous ! 🤩 (*) I guess AI-generated, from the general aspect... Did you notice how all the AI-generated images somehow all ”look the same” ?... 🤔 Edited May 13 by Henri Beauchamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Fizzle Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 57 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: And @Whirly Fizzle: this baby Firebird is just too cute (*) and makes me jealous ! 🤩 (*) I guess AI-generated, from the general aspect... Did you notice how all the AI-generated images somehow all ”look the same” ?... 🤔 Yes it's AI. I used https://fastsdxl.ai/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 23 hours ago, Qie Niangao said: flawed PBR implementation FLAWED?!?! I beg your pardon. It's "Perfectly Flawed". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whirly Fizzle Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) Speaking of AI... Firestorm PBR - Eternal Wait Song Edited May 13 by Whirly Fizzle 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansariel Hiller Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 Yikes, latest Firestorm beta seems very crashy... and I'm apparently forced to use it since the 73309 beta I was using is now apparently not allowed to log in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 10 hours ago, AmeliaJ08 said: Yikes, latest Firestorm beta seems very crashy... and I'm apparently forced to use it since the 73309 beta I was using is now apparently not allowed to log in? Yeah there's a new beta. I installed it and used it for a while, didn't get viewer crashes, but I still get the same constant SLPlugin.exe crashes on my machine that started with the Linden viewer just before their first PBR beta. That's a problem I don't get with PBR-capable Alchemy nor the CoolVL Viewer that also has proper mirrors, 2K textures, and all the stuff in the Lab's featurettes RC viewer. (Because I can only really cope with the v6 UI, I stick with Alchemy when I need to get stuff done; it has enough PBR to see what I'm looking at for now.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmeliaJ08 Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 22 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said: Yeah there's a new beta. I installed it and used it for a while, didn't get viewer crashes, but I still get the same constant SLPlugin.exe crashes on my machine that started with the Linden viewer just before their first PBR beta. That's a problem I don't get with PBR-capable Alchemy nor the CoolVL Viewer that also has proper mirrors, 2K textures, and all the stuff in the Lab's featurettes RC viewer. (Because I can only really cope with the v6 UI, I stick with Alchemy when I need to get stuff done; it has enough PBR to see what I'm looking at for now.) Mine complained of no outfits in inventory, couldn't reset to default character, attempting to take my body off and wear another caused a hard bugsplat crash I'll investigate more tonight, I just like the performance of the PBR viewer which is why I was still using an older beta that just worked. It's super fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mygoditsfullofstars Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 On 5/11/2024 at 2:24 PM, Coffee Pancake said: Ship it. We did - and all I can say at this point is god help us all.. 3 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Starlight Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 The log off process on firestorm has changed with the latest upday (7.1.9). It now the viewer disapers and there is just a small box for a few seconds. It happens on two different computors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 6 hours ago, Melissa Starlight said: The log off process on firestorm has changed with the latest upday (7.1.9). It now the viewer disapers and there is just a small box for a few seconds. It happens on two different computors. It's supposed to do that Melissa, folk complained that the old "slow" logout/shutdown" was causing crashes. Frankly it had more to do with folk logging off and snapping their laptop shut immediately. I must admit the "bam" shutdown surprised me at first but it's common to all 7.x viewers and after a gazillion Betas I am used to it now! Edited June 23 by Aishagain moar wurdz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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