Should more game elements be added to Second Life?

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

The only way to have new and exciting games is for them to be PIOF or for Subscription Members.

WoW has bots. So does FFXIV. Tons, in fact. Those games cost $15/month for a sub (roughly).

Gotta admit, the Lalafell invasions are pretty cute, tho.

[Istelathis]

I think for some people, bots are just the game.  Take for example fishing, or lindo, you know these bots are not making very much money in RL.  The resources required to run them barely makes up for the energy expended in making linden, you might make perhaps 200L in an hour using multiple accounts, at a multiplier event.  I've tried to figure out why anyone would want to do that when they probably generate such little money, and they already have the resources and investment in running such elaborate bots in the first place,  and the only answer I have arrived at is that the person is just having fun with their bots.

I mean, if earning money by running bots exploiting games in SL actually was worth it, I would understand why people did it for financial reasons, but there is more money to be earned elsewhere, SL is a lousy place for botters to make money I'm sure.

That is why when I used to host my own fishing events, with multipliers I wouldn't even bother kicking them out, I figured they were having fun playing with their bots and to me that was the entire point of the games.  Not that I think everyone should feel the same way I do, I just wasn't bothered by it as much as others are.  Not that I would use bots myself, I am lazy, and not in that much need of linden.. I would rather just work a few minutes in RL than spend hours managing a bunch of bots.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Istelathis

[EliseAnne85]

31 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

When I first started SL, I met a guy who used to run several avatars at once not on a bot viewer.  This was back when camping on dance pads was a thing.  He'd have 5 or 6 of them on at a time collecting Ls while his main was doing whatever.  They ALL had PIOF.   When Match Fishing came along with Ls prizes, he'd do the same thing.  When a box popped up to tell him he had a fish, it would flash in the lower toolbar to let him know to switch to that avatar.

Having PIOF will in no way keep anyone from 'gaming' a system.  Pretty sure there is nothing in the ToS that disallows running multiple avatars at once, either.  

I know, there is nothing 100% even regarding PIOF.  I don't even know how much better it would help to have certain games for those with subscriptions only.  But, if someone wanted to pay for all those subscriptions and play games we could come up with, let them or change TOS to one player per game.

 

Edited April 20, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I mean, if earning money by running bots exploiting games in SL actually was worth it, I would understand why people did it for financial reasons, but there is more money to be earned elsewhere, SL is a lousy place for botters to make money I'm sure.

The example I gave was from back in 2009-2010.  He'd enter the Match Fishing contest and some were 1000L for first prize.  He could make 5000L in a day doing basically nothing.  He also would sometimes set 4 or 5 avatars at one club that had contests 24/7.  Votes would get the win.  1st prize was usually 250-500L.  He'd take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd while running them overnight.   He actually paid for a large rental with the money he made each week.

Now, it's not so easy to find places to make that kind of money in contests.  Probably because other people did the same things.

Edited April 20, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The example I gave was from back in 2009-2010.  He'd enter the Match Fishing contest and some were 1000L for first prize.  He could make 5000L in a day doing basically nothing.  He also would sometimes set 4 or 5 avatars at one club that had contests 24/7.  Votes would get the win.  1st prize was usually 250-500L.  He'd take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd while running them overnight.   He actually paid for a large rental with the money he made each week.

Now, it's not so easy to find places to make that kind of money in contests.  Probably because other people did the same things.

Ironically..if the original point of the games was to increase traffic, then he was "helping" the game hosts!

[EliseAnne85]

12 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I think for some people, bots are just the game.  Take for example fishing, or lindo, you know these bots are not making very much money in RL.  The resources required to run them barely makes up for the energy expended in making linden, you might make perhaps 200L in an hour using multiple accounts, at a multiplier event.  I've tried to figure out why anyone would want to do that when they probably generate such little money, and they already have the resources and investment in running such elaborate bots in the first place,  and the only answer I have arrived at is that the person is just having fun with their bots.

I mean, if earning money by running bots exploiting games in SL actually was worth it, I would understand why people did it for financial reasons, but there is more money to be earned elsewhere, SL is a lousy place for botters to make money I'm sure.

That is why when I used to host my own fishing events, with multipliers I wouldn't even bother kicking them out, I figured they were having fun playing with their bots and to me that was the entire point of the games.  Not that I think everyone should feel the same way I do, I just wasn't bothered by it as much as others are.  Not that I would use bots myself, I am lazy, and not in that much need of linden.. I would rather just work a few minutes in RL than spend hours managing a bunch of bots.

I think, sometimes, this is true.  People are just playing with their bots.  

However, even so, we can see how much people want to earn lindens in SL.

If SL could figure out a game where people could earn lindens, it would be an overnight smash hit.  But, someone has to foot that bill where the people make linden, plus there are the bots.

Rowan is speaking of contests in a post above.  Contests crossed my mind.  I had fun at many contests.  They aren't that big of a thing as they used to be.  Not in the circle I run in anyhow.  The circle I run in, there are occasional contests.  

The Dinkies and Tinies had two women who hosted a 5000 L contest once a month.  It drew a large crowd and they got good tips, even the venue got got good tips as the tips were shown in a thermometer.  They had to close for personal illness reasons.  But, that kind of possible draw of 5000 L does draw a big crowd, that's for sure.  

[Jaylinbridges]

17 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I did NOT say controlled, I said gamed.

By AI systems, I meant gamed also.

Yes, I was thinking gamed and didn't mean controlled game scripting.  Gaming is avatars and bots from the same operator controlling the game rewards by using multiple player bots and scripts to an advantage.  Poor choice of words by me. 

I still think of a game as more than putting an avatar in a pose, and occasionally clicking something. That is a passive game, which I don't think SL needs any more of.  Gaming to me means moving your avatar with some skill to avoid the hazards and not getting sent back to the start line. And so you don't get yourself blown up, eaten, or rendered to a liquid.  These are not all violent shooter games.  If I slip off a bridge and am dissolved in boiling acid, it's my own fault.  Avatar movement skills vs having to kill everyone in my path with 1000 shot cannons.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Jaylinbridges

[Anicha Heartsong]

For me, the problem with adding more 'game elements' to SL is simply that this usually involves adding the 'grind' and very little else. I've looked at so-called roleplaying games in SL before now, and all there was to the 'game' was tasks you had to do to level up, maintenance to do, points to earn. (This is the 'grind' in game theory). But there was little or no roleplaying at all. And little or no fun. They seemed to be impossibly boring. The so-called 'game' was simply a way of selling huds and other c**p to people, and keeping them on a sim as traffic, while they earned merit points or something, just for hanging around.

SL would benefit from more creative or roleplaying kind of games, but sims are popping up all the time, and whenever you go there, they are virtually empty. Or truly empty. Then they disappear.

 

[Phil Deakins]

19 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I think for some people, bots are just the game. 

I created a number of bot systems and, with all but one of them, that was what they were for - the pleasure in doing it - fun. When many people enjoyed going to clubs and such, I enjoyed creating bot systems (and other programming). Even the system that was just for the traffic was enjoyable to make. For significant periods of time, it was my hobby here. I haven't done it for years now, and, not being a clubber, or fisher, or explorer, I haven't found anything that comes anywhere near it in terms of an enjoyable SL hobby.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Phil Deakins said:

I created a number of bot systems and, with all but one of them, that was what they were for - the pleasure in doing it - fun. When many people enjoyed going to clubs and such, I enjoyed creating bot systems. Even the system that was just for the traffic was enjoyable to make. For significant periods of time, it was my hobby here. I haven't done it for years now, and, not being a clubber, or fisher, or explorer, I haven't found anything that comes anywhere near it in terms of an enjoyable SL hobby.

Not sure why I thought you also sold bot systems, guess I conflated some other reason you earned "millions of L$"!

[Phil Deakins]

55 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not sure why I thought you also sold bot systems, guess I conflated some other reason you earned "millions of L$"!

No, I never sold any systems, or used bots on other people's land. Being a programmer, I just enjoyed doing it. To be honest, I only got into it in the first place to outrank a store that was outranking me for low prim furniture when their furniture wasn't low prim, and the traffic they were getting to outrank me with was due to a club on the same parcel, and not the store itself.

The "millions of L$" came from that store, which I genuinely stumbled into. I earned over a million L$ a month for some time with it. It totally amazed me. It was a good and worthwhile hobby back then 

I'm still programming (scripting) but not bot systems

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Phil Deakins

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

No, I never sold any systems, or used bots on other people's land. Being a programmer, I just enjoyed doing it. To be honest, I only got into it in the first place to outrank a store that was outranking me for low prim furniture when their furniture wasn't low prim, and the traffic they were getting to outrank me with was due to a club on the same parcel, and not the store itself.

I earned over a million L$ a month for some time with that low prim furniture business, which I genuinely stumbled into. It totally amazed me. It was good and worthwhile hobby at the time

I'm still programming (scripting) but not bot systems

 

Then, I shall think of you as "less ebil" than prior!

[Phil Deakins]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Then, I shall think of you as "less ebil" than prior!

lol. Thank you

[Drayke Newall]

On 4/20/2023 at 10:04 PM, Jaylinbridges said:

I think it depends on where in the world the player is located, since UDP lag with long ping times can cause a time lag in a game, compared to those with no lag locations in the world.

I am 50 miles from the Amazon AWS cloud, and we are fiber front to end, with 25 ms hop times to AWS.  I have no detectable avatar lag with motion.

Those complaining about avatar motion control lag should state their world location and actual ping times to the LL AWS servers in Oregon.  LL decided a few years ago to not use other AWS cloud locations on other continents - because it would cost them too much.  I have heard nothing to change that bottom line financial view from LL.

You are talking about only one form of 'lag' that a person may experience in SL and that is latency lag i.e user to server. SL however is not the same as a fps game where only input lag exists. Within SL there is also server lag that affects many things that is outside of the control of a user or a users location to the server likewise there is graphics lag based on not only user content but also, viewer coding, cache issues, etc.

In SL there is:

• Script lag, i.e. go to a high script region and you will experience lag created on the server and not client side.
• Temp rez lag. Created by to many object entry calls for the region with potential to crash the server. Once again server lag.
• Avatar region lag. Created by a region having over about 30 avatars at one time. Once again server lag.
• Region crossing lag. Created as your avatar, inventory and entire being is recompiled from one server to another. Server lag.
• Graphics lag. Created by the sl viewer not being able to utilise multi-threads, cores, latest graphics cards full potential etc.
• Pathfinding lag. If you played Linden Realms when the monsters were around you would have seen the monsters sometimes lag when they are chasing you where they would stop while your running and then quickly tp to you.

All of those are different from the lag you talked about and recognised as lag. All of those types of lag give the same result. Slows the avatar down and makes the viewer look jerky.

There is also more types of lag that can be user generated. Texture trashing is one for example..

Then there is as mentioned before, lag created by simply the process in which your computer decompiles the cache to the viewer and back again. i.e. waiting for a region to load when you tp into it.

All of these types of issues mentioned are what people mean when the talk about 'lag' not just latency. All of these issues also affect the usability, workability and creation of any game in SL.

Additionally, everyone that doesn't live right next to a server dont care about latency lag. People are used to it from other games etc. That's why you also dont hear anyone complain about latency lag but instead all the lag issues I mentioned above.

[EliseAnne85]

6 hours ago, Jaylinbridges said:

Gaming to me means moving your avatar with some skill to avoid the hazards and not getting sent back to the start line. And so you don't get yourself blown up, eaten, or rendered to a liquid.  These are not all violent shooter games.  If I slip off a bridge and am dissolved in boiling acid, it's my own fault.  Avatar movement skills vs having to kill everyone in my path with 1000 shot cannons.

Dinkies and Tinies have a shooter game without lag.  It was the Ebil Snowman against us.  I arrived late and didn't even get a chance to read the notecard on how to work the gun, so the Ebil Snowman surrounded me (which I let them, of course, as I know it's just a game) and try to push me off the cliff, etc...  Those Ebil Snowman can push you and then they just keep coming and coming.  I couldn't work the gun.  But, it was fun to watch it all occurring and how others were winning and killing the Ebil Snowman.  But, the Ebil Snowman premise could be taken and used for many games.  That was just it's seasonal theme. 

Of course 100 Dinkie avatars equals about one Legacy body, so that is one of the reasons Dinkies and Tinies have games, we aren't lag-intense avatars plus the region we played the game was practically empty.  Dinkies/Tinkies have a lot of games, which may have slowed since the war though.  Join Raglan Shire and Small Talk and go and see some of the events and games they have.  However, I kind of doubt a lot of Dinkie and Tiny games could translate well into the human mesh body when one realizes 100 Dinkie avatars are the equivalent of one Legacy mesh body.  

I often think in SL, we want it all.  Well, sometimes somethings have to give to make certain other things work.  Most might not be willing to compromise and adjust their avatar; however, in order for certain things to work or work well.  

Edited April 21, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

On 4/18/2023 at 4:45 AM, Phil Deakins said:

My mistake. The BBSs I knew ran on dialups, not the internet. Like you, I had one myself for a while.

See my previous post for my excuse 

ATDT..

IYKYK

[Istelathis]

22 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

ATDT..

* ring*

*ring*

*ding ding ding psssshhhhhk pssshhhk dooda dooda blip blip*

*connected*

Welcome to SL BBS!

Username: Stella

Password: ********

*scrolling picture*

🥰😜

Now off to find some doors!

 

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, Istelathis said:

* ring*

*ring*

*ding ding ding psssshhhhhk pssshhhk dooda dooda blip blip*

 

You forgot the *beeeyoooo beeeyooooo*.

At the very tail end of dialup I had a shotgun modem with two phone lines for twice the speed! 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

You forgot the *beeeyoooo beeeyooooo*.

At the very tail end of dialup I had a shotgun modem with two phone lines for twice the speed! 

Heck, that's almost like ADSL! 

[Love Zhaoying]

Fun Fact: If you're old enough, you could use a fax machine to copy a mimeographed page!

Bonus: Before email SPAM, there was Fax SPAM!

[Istelathis]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

You forgot the *beeeyoooo beeeyooooo*.

At the very tail end of dialup I had a shotgun modem with two phone lines for twice the speed! 

I remember drooling over those, but couldn't afford two phone lines and the service through my ISP at the time.  56k was pretty nice though, I usually would connect at a relatively decent speed, with the aid of downloaders such as download accelerator plus I could download games and the such relatively quickly.

I do remember connecting to others via Kali and Kahn, through the Internet and running games via IPX, before Gamespy ever became a thing.  There was so much fun to be had with Doom and Duke3d, even Quake I believe, but the lag could get terrible, although that could have been to my advantage back then.

By the time I moved out of my parents house, Road Runner had hit their area, much to my frustration because I couldn't get it where I moved to.  I was reliant upon a phone connection even in to the very early 2000s.  I believe I even had to rely on dialup for EverQuest when it first came out for a brief period of time.

[Love Zhaoying]

40 minutes ago, Istelathis said:

I remember drooling over those, but couldn't afford two phone lines and the service through my ISP at the time.  56k was pretty nice though, I usually would connect at a relatively decent speed, with the aid of downloaders such as download accelerator plus I could download games and the such relatively quickly.

I do remember connecting to others via Kali and Kahn, through the Internet and running games via IPX, before Gamespy ever became a thing.  There was so much fun to be had with Doom and Duke3d, even Quake I believe, but the lag could get terrible, although that could have been to my advantage back then.

By the time I moved out of my parents house, Road Runner had hit their area, much to my frustration because I couldn't get it where I moved to.  I was reliant upon a phone connection even in to the very early 2000s.  I believe I even had to rely on dialup for EverQuest when it first came out for a brief period of time.

If LL would just add XMODEM or ZMODEM protocol to the viewers, it would make more game elements possible!

..get off my lawn!

(Or as we used to say, NACK!!)

[Bree Giffen]

Everquest was the reason to get two phone lines. I had my own priorities back then.

On topic, everyone has presented great feedback. Half of the posts have been about existing gaming in SL and how it is good but has a lot of room for improvement. Examples given: fishing, farming, breedables, dinkies games, sailing, RPGs, Zyngo, Tringo, gambling, bloodlines. Problems pointed out have been about lag, sluggishness, latency, high creator investment, existing tools broken or unfinished, etc. Fixes have been suggested such as improving netcode, more keybinds, cloud gaming, fixing and finishing LSL tools.  The other half have been new ideas such as new camera controls, more game UI, detailed world map, adding Unity, mobile gaming, separate game modules, add NPCS and questing elements, etc. 

SL will definitely not have triple AAA gameplay but maybe between fixing/finishing existing code and adding a few small features we could have have a slightly better gaming experience.

[Luisa Aurelia]

One of the charms of SL is it lack of competitiveness. In recent years, too many games have appeared and this led to a videogame oversaturation.

Adding such features in SL will undoubtedly make it a more competitive "game".

Its nice to have at least one place in the virtual universe where one can stay and relax without thinking about levels, ranklists and competition.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Luisa Aurelia