Open letter to Linden Lab: Enforcing policies?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, CaithLynnSayes said:

Yes.

Assumption #1: It has happened in the past.

Assumption #2: Forumites are a tiny percentage of Second Life users.

Assumption #3: You probably will not get a "yes, it happened to me" answer here that satisfies the criteria for what I think you are asking.  That does not invalidate Assumption #1.

[Dorientje Woller]

5 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

So, We're 16 pages in now. Can anyone point to a specific case where a bot has exposed someone's real life information?

This isn't a gotcha. I'm actually really curious. Aside from RedZone obviously, i mean recently, perhaps the BBots...

Has given you the example, real time checking none the less, that a friend of his premium status was mentioned on the that site of you know who, while I was checking his profile at the same in world where it was not mentioned.

[Theresa Tennyson]

23 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I simply wonder how many times I will be harrassed now by club owners in search of staff, being poached to come to work for them while my gerne of music doesn't fit theirs, and then being insulted for it that I am no "real" dj because I refuse to play their genre of music. I do other things in SL beside dj'ng, which requiers my full also.

Can you give us an "over/under" on that for betting purposes?

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

Can you give us an "over/under" on that for betting purposes?

Only on an approved Gaming Region, using approved Gaming scripts.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Has given you the example, real time checking none the less, that a friend of his premium status was mentioned on the that site of you know who, while I was checking his profile at the same in world where it was not mentioned.

That still only pertains to second life info.  It's not exposing the credit card number he used to pay for it.  Lordy

Edited January 24, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Innula Zenovka said:

To expand on Phil's point,  the function llGetObjectDetails returns data on both objects and agents, and includes particular flags that are valid for one but not the other (OBJECT_ACCOUNT_LEVEL applies only to agents, for example, .  However, there are agent-specific functions like llGetAgentSize(), llRequestAgentData(), or llGetAgentList(), which return data on avatars and bots, but not objects, scripted or otherwise.

 

Theory: a nice Turing test would be asking the different between an Agent and an Object.

[CaithLynnSayes]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

Assumption #1: It has happened in the past.

Assumption #2: Forumites are a tiny percentage of Second Life users.

Assumption #3: You probably will not get a "yes, it happened to me" answer here that satisfies the criteria for what I think you are asking.  That does not invalidate Assumption #1.

I'm not looking for a "yes, it happened to me". I asked "do anyone know of a case" were a bot exposed someone's rl info.

I'm following along in this thread and i see a lot of people up in arms about data, data and data. But i've repeated several times now that this profile data is what users put on their profile and it is intended to be seen by people, why else would one put it on there?

I find it just really curious that now there is this great big hoopla over this "data" because a bot collected it and put it on a third party website. You all knew this would sooner or later happen at one point.

Lots of people quote policies and snippets of other website's policies but still nobody has acknowledged or answered me when i say "you've put that information out there". I would really want someone to answer me this instead of blaming LL for allowing it to happen.

I can't believe i'm defending LL in this case but i have to, because it's just how it is.

 

So please, someone. Try and answer me this question: Does anyone know of a case were a bot exposed someone's real information.

The stipulation however is that said rl information may not have been put in one's profile.

Thank you.

[CaithLynnSayes]

6 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Has given you the example, real time checking none the less, that a friend of his premium status was mentioned on the that site of you know who, while I was checking his profile at the same in world where it was not mentioned.

I'm sorry, that does not qualify as real life information and you know it.

[Dorientje Woller]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

That's still only pertains to second life info.  It's not exposing the credit card number he used to pay for it.  Lordy

Lordy, you need to understand that it isn't about private and public info, but rather when public info becomes private info. In my country, by law, that starts from the moment when someone says "NO, you're not allowed to share anything about me", whether that info/data is given in a public or private surrounding. That "NO" stands. Following that, the person who said no, has the right to force you to delete the data that you have gathered.

[belindacarson]

1 minute ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Lordy, you need to understand that it isn't about private and public info, but rather when public info becomes private info. In my country, by law, that starts from the moment when someone says "NO, you're not allowed to share anything about me", whether that info/data is given in a public or private surrounding. That "NO" stands. Following that, the person who said no, has the right to force you to delete the data that you have gathered.

Wrong.

 

You refer to the GDPR, which only refers to Personal Identifiable Information.

LL have a whole section in the support section where you can make a GDPR request to ask for the RL info that they have on you, if your account level was covered under the GDPR, they' d hardly have made a script to reveal this info.

 

Even moreso as LL are in California, which has it's own version of the GDPR.

[CaithLynnSayes]

@Dorientje Woller By your name i can identify roughly where you're from. and here's the kicker, i'm also from that country and I hate to break it to you but this 👏 does 👏not 👏apply 👏here.👏

Point me to the law of our country that says information you've put out on the internet may not actually be shared. I'll wait.

[CaithLynnSayes]

Just now, belindacarson said:

You refer to the GDPR, which only refers to Personal Identifiable Information.

Exactly!

[Dorientje Woller]

2 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

@Dorientje Woller By your name i can identify roughly where you're from. and here's the kicker, i'm also from that country and I hate to break it to you but this 👏 does 👏not 👏apply 👏here.👏

Point me to the law of our country that says information you've put out on the internet may not actually be shared. I'll wait.

Sweetie, try once to film somebody in public without his/her permission in my country and you will see how you will fare. And you can't indentify me by my avatar name, nor in which country I live. It's a fictional name. If I would have taken a Latino name, does it mean that I am living in that region?

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Lordy, you need to understand that it isn't about private and public info, but rather when public info becomes private info. In my country, by law, that starts from the moment when someone says "NO, you're not allowed to share anything about me", whether that info/data is given in a public or private surrounding. That "NO" stands. Following that, the person who said no, has the right to force you to delete the data that you have gathered.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR INDIVIDUALS LOCATED OUTSIDE THE U.S., THE EU OR THE UK

 

In certain jurisdictions, we will need your explicit consent to obtain, process and share your personal information. All such processing will be carried out in line with this Privacy Policy. To the extent required, your use of the Services will be deemed your explicit consent to obtain, process and share your personal information. If you do not wish to provide us such consent, you should cease using the Services immediately and contact us using the contact details provided in section “Comments and Questions”.

[Andred Darwin]

1 hour ago, Coffee Pancake said:

It actually never worked and only applied to web profiles ..

 

1 hour ago, Ceka Cianci said:

But in world profiles don't have those filter settings.. Those are online profile settings..

Thank you, I was really under the impression they were connected (I never really checked, cause most of my profile was set to public... but I do consider this very important...) ... anyway, for sure it's in LL's and users best interest if those privacy settings were observed by all sources (endpoints) of profile information... this whole mess would be avoided... also surprising the system was coded that way... (one endpoint uses privacy settings and another doesn't... sending data to external clients... ), even more surprising, no response so far.... 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[Rowan Amore]

Maybe those web profiles and hiding everything about you is why SL.has become less social.  If I opened a profile ( I have always used legacy profiles) and saw nothing, i.wouldn't bother messaging that person.  No info available to comment on aside from..you look nice... makes SL very boring.

[CaithLynnSayes]

10 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Sweetie, try once to film somebody in public without his/her permission in my country and you will see how you will fare. And you can't indentify me by my avatar name, nor in which country I live. It's a fictional name. If I would have taken a Latino name, does it mean that I am living in that region?

Ok, fair enough. It's possible you don't actually live where i assumed you did. I made an assumption based on your username.

I did however do a quick google search to find out what countries do actually prohibit someone from filming another without consent . Now i do have a rough idea where you live

Nevertheless it is not an argument because in most of the world when you are out in public you have to assume you are being filmed.

Also, don't call me sweetie.

There is no reason for you to become so hostile and animated over this.

 

Also, my earlier question still stands; Someone, tell me about a case where real life information has been published by a bot...

Edited January 24, 2023 by CaithLynnSayes

[Andred Darwin]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Maybe those web profiles and hiding everything about you is why SL.has become less social.  If I opened a profile ( I have always used legacy profiles) and saw nothing, i.wouldn't bother messaging that person.  No info available to comment on aside from..you look nice... makes SL very boring.

Maybe that player just don't want to share anything (or even give a reason for someone to contact them.... ), they may just want to do their thing... I think having that option in SL, is probably the right thing to do... (is already implement in web profiles anyway... would not hurt... ),  this whole thread would probably not even exist, along with disappointment about this issue... 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Andred Darwin

[Atomic Infinity]

As the OP is referring to policies, it seems there are two types of privacy to consider : the important RL stuff on which an account is founded, and then a modicum of in-world privacy of the land we own, groups we are in, and the things we do or buy.

We can look up each others profiles in world, by a name on ownership or creator of an object, a land owner, or an avatar nearby. What we put in that profile should only be things we are happy to share, like it has been forever, though perhaps now it should be made clearer to all whether it can be expected that such information might be taken outside of SL, perhaps by defining such in the appropriate policy.

Banning bots or the removal of the script tools that allow us to interact with the world will break thousands of objects. Probably tens of thousands. Don't go there, else we might as well pack up and go play xbox. Maybe the function that shows account level could have a review though if it is upsetting a lot of residents.

So if the bot policy gets an overhaul, then perhaps it needs a section on respecting in-world privacy, and the publishing of data externally without consent, which it seems is what most people are upset about.

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Sid Nagy said:

Example of abuse of "public" data:
My first bot collects how many sims landbaron A has.
The second bot collects the percentage of land occupied on their sims.
My backbone computer software calculates how much cash is going trough the Landbaron A account on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis.

Same goes with harvesting the "what is selling at the moment" data on the marketplace.

As a peanut merchant I don't care if the world finds out that I make just enough on the marketplace to have a 4096 parcel for free and to buy some stuff at the happy weekend sales, but if I were a merchant or land baron making serious money with second life, I would not be dancing the happy dance if that information was spread around. 2FA or not.

Well, not just newbies but IRS agents need "Things to Do" now that more has been invested in them. 

But until LL starts issuing 1099s like PayPal says it will be doing, it's worthless. because it's not an accepted form of documentation. Perhaps it might initiate a query and demand for one, but we're surely not there yet.

I would think what's happening out there in merchant land now is gnashing of teeth by some very big breedables sellers and others who know they make fortunes but they didn't get on the Leader Board -- which we used to have in SL.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

tell me about a case where real life information has been published by a bot...

Bots don't usually get blamed for both taking/mining/scraping/"stealing" data and ALSO publishing it!

Usually we blame a person in there someplace.

Just sayin'.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

6 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The theory floated by @Prokofy Neva (and I can't think of a better) is that they are scooping the data from the recent purchases feature on the MP. In which case it is obviously very incomplete.

It is "public" in the sense that someone with the know-how can scrape it. It would be like someone watching how much I am charged every time I go grocery shopping by looking at the register over my shoulder, and then publishing my weekly grocery expenses without my permission. The individual bits of data are "public," but . . .

That's exactly what they're doing, and in fact it looks like they aren't doing any "scraping" at all. More like lying under a drip with an open mouth. I pulled up their "Marketplace" page and the SL Marketplace landing page. Their "Marketplace" has a "ticker" that displays one item per second. When you refresh the SL Marketplace page, you see that these are "What's Selling Now" items. Apparently the Marketplace pulls up a random item that was sold every second and displays it for "What People are Buying" and our Evil Bot Overlords are taking those and adding them up to get their "sales figures."

Theresa Tennyson sighs, "Well, now I know what the statisticians who worked on the 2020 election lawsuits are doing this year..."

[EliseAnne85]

21 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Also, my earlier question still stands; Someone, tell me about a case where real life information has been published by a bot...

The newest "Bots" were publishing sales data of SL companies on their website.  To me, that is real life information as this is not play money here in SL, it can be exchanged for real fiat currency.  However, it is said now newest "Bots" were calculating the sales from 'what customers are buying now' off MP and then putting that on their website with the SL creator's profile/store name, etc.  It is said to have been taken down this morning as what the bots were collecting and publishing as the sales data was erroneous data.

Edited January 24, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, EliseAnne85 said:

The newest bbBots were publishing sales data of SL companies on their bbBot website.  To me, that is real life information as this is not play money here in SL, it can be exchanged for real fiat currency.  However, it is said now the bbBots were calculating the sales from 'what customers are buying now' off MP and then putting that on their website with the SL creator's profile/store name, etc.  It is said to have been taken down this morning as what the bots were collecting and publishing as sales data was erroneous data.

I think mentioning the BB's is against the Forum Guidelines. Sorry!

[EliseAnne85]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I think mentioning the BB's is against the Forum Guidelines. Sorry!

k. corrected.