Female avis are getting smaller and smaller? 0.0

[Phil Deakins]

10 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

He did make an offer however it is for a size/scale that no one thus far has really mentioned using nor with any sort of realistic usage expectation.

I've only been talking about RL sizes not working as the norm in SL. I'm happy to have it proved one way or the other. I proved it years ago, and I'm happy to have it proved either way again.

There is one person in the thread who preached RL sizes years ago, and I imagine she still lives that way herself. I doubt that anyone else in the thread does, simply because it doesn't work well enough, which is all I've been saying..

Edited July 23, 2022 by Phil Deakins

[Theresa Tennyson]

9 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I had no issue whatsoever moving about in the trailer with my custom camera rear view.  I didn't check the one with furniture but I will when I'm logged in later.  If the furniture is also built to scale, I don't see a problem living in a tiny place like that.  

I remember my Amazaunt's first purchased house and furniture. The bed was literally almost twice as long and wide as a RL king size bed but the bedroom was big enough to put in two of those aircraft carriers and have space left over for dressers and whatnot.

[Ceka Cianci]

Just now, Theresa Tennyson said:

I remember my Amazaunt's first purchased house and furniture. The bed was literally almost twice as long and wide as a RL king size bed but the bedroom was big enough to put in two of those aircraft carriers and have space left over for dressers and whatnot.

I'm 5'7 in SL and can bump the top of my head on the door handles in my tree house.. lol

[Rowan Amore]

Isn't the Berlin build supposed to be built to RL scale?  

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Isn't the Berlin build supposed to be built to RL scale?  

It is. There are height guides at the entrance.

I have gone there many times and never had issues.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

11 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I've only been talking about RL sizes not working as the norm in SL. I'm happy to have it proved one way or the other. I proved it years ago, and I'm happy to have it proved either way again.

There is one person in the thread who preached RL sizes years ago, and I imagine she still lives that way herself. I doubt that anyone else in the thread does, simply because it doesn't work well enough, which is all I've been saying..

I've already told you I do, Phil. I don't have missionary zeal about it, but I own virtually nothing that isn't mod precisely so that I can scale it down.

[HeathcliffMontague]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:58 AM, Ceka Cianci said:

Stealing this. And I'm 195 cm RL

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Phil's bathroom?

[Rowan Amore]

17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is. There are height guides at the entrance.

I have gone there many times and never had issues.

It's been awhile since I've been there but I'm not having any issues with the scale of the build and my avatar which stands around 5'8".  I even checked to be sure I was within the suggested height for the build.

https://gyazo.com/058e24c21461417e0a7f7acd93d651e3

Stairs are always a good way to check and I had no issue there either aside from it being a bit narrow but my cam skimmed the wall when I turned at the top.  The way down was just as easy.

https://gyazo.com/724415b92d10c5ebbc54d08f1fa6128e

https://gyazo.com/1af271b8c83db846e3360d8153c8b6e2

I also went through several building with furniture.  No problem.

 

IMO, the one and only issue with building things to RL scale including avatars is the default camera position which is now and has always been ridiculous.  

Will people build to scale?  Probably not nor do they even need to do so but saying it's unlivable at scale isn't true.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's been awhile since I've been there but I'm not having any issues with the scale of the build and my avatar which stands around 5'8".  I even checked to be sure I was within the suggested height for the build.

https://gyazo.com/058e24c21461417e0a7f7acd93d651e3

Stairs are always a good way to check and I had no issue there either aside from it being a bit narrow but my cam skimmed the wall when I turned at the top.  The way down was just as easy.

https://gyazo.com/724415b92d10c5ebbc54d08f1fa6128e

https://gyazo.com/1af271b8c83db846e3360d8153c8b6e2

I also went through several building with furniture.  No problem.

 

IMO, the one and only issue with building things to RL scale including avatars is the default camera position which is now and has always been ridiculous.  

Will people build to scale?  Probably not nor do they even need to do so but saying it's unlivable at scale isn't true.

I think the stairs you have in that pic are an Apple Fall townhouse that I own, and have used many, many times for pics and stuff. It is cramped, but it's also in a sense supposed to be cramped: it's a slightly run-down Victorian terrace house. Like you, I've never had major issues navigating inside, and I don't even have my camera position fixed. I usually just wheel in my view a bit -- it takes a half second, and voila.

I wonder if the default camera view that is scripted into the Legacy body is supposed, in part, to deal with this issue? It's much lower.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Phil Deakins]

21 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've already told you I do, Phil. I don't have missionary zeal about it, but I own virtually nothing that isn't mod precisely so that I can scale it down.

I don't remember that Scylla. So 2 in the thread then

This whole discussion has gone nowhere, so I don't see any reason for me to continue in it. I'll repeat that an RL sized SL won't work as the norm, and it's the camera (and the lack of eyes and head movements) that prevents it. I've known for many years that a few put up with its shortcomings, but that doesn't mean that it'll be perfectly acceptable to all.

For me, I'm gonna leave it at that

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

I don't remember that Scylla. So 2 in the thread then

This whole discussion has gone nowhere, so I don't see any reason for me to continue in it. I'll repeat that an RL sized SL won't work as the norm, and it's the camera (and the lack of eyes and head movements) that prevents it. I've known for many years that a few put up with its shortcomings, but that doesn't mean that it'll be perfectly acceptable to all.

For me, I'm gonna leave it at that

 

 

/me facepalms

Phil, you have people in this thread who are telling you that they DO use this as the norm -- and don't have significant issues with it. And you seem to be determined to tell us that we do. Which is . . . I mean, WHY?

And I've known you waaaaay too long. You NEVER just "leave it at that." Never once in the more than 13 years that I've known you.

[Solar Legion]

6 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

/me facepalms

Phil, you have people in this thread who are telling you that they DO use this as the norm -- and don't have significant issues with it. And you seem to be determined to tell us that we do. Which is . . . I mean, WHY?

And I've known you waaaaay too long. You NEVER just "leave it at that." Never once in the more than 13 years that I've known you.

The criteria he uses is ridiculous at best and we both know how much he likes to shift things.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Solar Legion said:

The criteria he uses is ridiculous at best and we both know how much he likes to shift things.

Yes, but we're very fond of him.

Most of the time.

Well, sometimes . . . 😏

[Ceka Cianci]

I remember years ago in that thread telling Phil  that, I was the winner of that thread..

I knew one day he would be back to try an take muh thrown..

 

Super hero girls MOUNT UP!! \o/

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Phil Deakins said:

it's the camera (and the lack of eyes and head movements) that prevents it.

It's the DEFAULT camera that prevents it.  That's it, that's all.  It's something LL needs to fix, always has been.

Back to the trailer that was furnished.    I walked around pretty well.

The bed itself has an issue which prevents easy movement around it.   I had one spot where my cam hit the wall on my way out of the bedroom.

https://gyazo.com/9f990d8234f3a2f6d0edab5cca551126

 

 

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's the DEFAULT camera that prevents it.  That's it, that's all.  It's something LL needs to fix, always has been.

Back to the trailer that was furnished.    I walked around pretty well.

The bed itself has an issue which prevents easy movement around it.   I had one spot where my cam hit the wall on my way out of the bedroom.

https://gyazo.com/9f990d8234f3a2f6d0edab5cca551126

 

 

 

 

i really like that camera setting, Rowan.

[Quistess Alpha]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Back to the trailer that was furnished.

WHere is that exactly? is it a public test spot? might be fun to bring my alt there who's testing a camera thing.

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

WHere is that exactly? is it a public test spot? might be fun to bring my alt there who's testing a camera thing.

It was posted earlier as a place to check out small spaces.

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Here's one of the family businesses - a trailer park. The rooms in the trailers are pretty close to your dimensions; the ceiling heights are even a touch lower than 9', I think. The trailers are 4 meters out to out.

http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Hochkonig/226/39/79

Why don't a few of you come down and check them out? (I told Jolene people might be coming or else it could get ugly - and no, this isn't an attempt to rent them out.) They work; they're tight, but then so is a real-life trailer and the furniture is probably even oversized by a bit.

 

[Quistess Alpha]

If you'll forgive my bad video quality (messed up some settings last time I used OBS and forgot to fix them)

 

[Modulated]

3 minutes ago, Quistess Alpha said:

If you'll forgive my bad video quality (messed up some settings last time I used OBS and forgot to fix them)

 

Totally unrelated, but the walk your avatar is using, where is it from? Its very natural.

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Modulated said:

Totally unrelated, but the walk your avatar is using, where is it from? Its very natural.

I was just going to ask that same question

 

[Quistess Alpha]

7 minutes ago, Modulated said:

Totally unrelated, but the walk your avatar is using, where is it from? Its very natural.

D2048-Walk.N by Oracul, from the AX-007 'Posing catch' set. Also using a custom script to limit movement speed to about half of the default. for the technically inclined, roughly

llSetForce(<0,0,4.5>);
vector v = llGetVel();
llSetVelocity(<1.5,0,v.z>,TRUE);

while CONTROL_FWD is pushed.

ETA: also unrelated, but if anyone knows of a turn animation that's more subtle and has a long ease-out (and ease-in). . .

Edited July 23, 2022 by Quistess Alpha

[Penny Patton]

On 7/19/2022 at 3:01 AM, Phil Deakins said:

There is nothing in SL that makes RL sizing either useful or necessary. But there is something in SL that makes it useful and necessary to have larger-than-RL sizes - the camera.

Breaking my long Forum silence for a rebuttal to this, there are several practical reasons smaller avatars are better for SL.

• It is literally impossible for women to have proportionate avatars at unrealistic sizes. Some bonehead early on at LL decided that women have proportionately shorter arms than men (they do not). So if you use a woman's shape and set your arm length to 65, it will be much shorter, proportionate to the rest of the body, than the same setting on a male shape. Women need their arm length in the 80-100 range just to have proportionate arms in the 5'5"-6' range. For men this problem is less pronounced but still, once your avatar is over 7' tall it becomes increasingly difficult to have human proportions. This is part of why so many men (the vast majority in fact) have tiny heads, short arms, and stretched out looking bodies.
• Smaller mesh objects tend to use less Land Impact. This means if you build to scale, you can literally build larger, more detailed environments regardless of the amount of land you own. My current avatar is a 7'2" fantasy character, (I have to use several proportion tricks that won't work for human avatars to minimize the aforementioned proportion issues) but I still build close to real world scale for that reason, as well as the reason below.
• When everyone has nearly maxed out height settings, nobody is "tall". In SL you can create shapes between 4' and 9' tall. This should mean you could have (proportion issues aside) a Lady Dimitrescu sized dommy mommy towering over most people. However this is not the case as most SL men are between 7 and 9' tall. (Also the same bonehead responsible for the arms decided women are not allowed to be as tall as men so maximum height for women is shorter, but still a fantastical size compared to human proportions.) Sorry guys, but if you're a typical SL man then you will never have a giant woman sit on you and you will never experience Snu Snu. You have only yourself to blame.
• Smaller environments encourage avatars to mingle closer together. For a club this means more people will be in chat range of everyone else, rather than being out of chat range from people halfway across the dance floor. For other types of sims, such as RP sims, this means it becomes far easier to use environmental tricks to guide visitors towards communal areas rather than having them crowd up at your landing point/foyer. My own current sim has a 10x10 foyer with a ceiling design  that makes it feel more like 5x5. Not enough to drive people out of the sim, but enough that they never linger at the landing point and instead continue into the sim itself. There are also "travel tunnels" connecting to other sims, which are 11x4x3.5m. Large enough to easily navigate without issue, but small enough no one lingers there either. Everyone winds up in the communal areas as intended, leading to a more active sim overall.

 

 I do want to address the issue of building to exactly 1=1 scale. Phil is quite right, you shouldn't. Even with my adjusted camera settings a 1=1 scale room will feel cramped, unless you're in first person mode or VR. Let's be honest, SL's first person mode sucks, always has, and VR will remain impractical for SL until LL finally addresses the optimization issue (don't hold your breath).

HOWEVER that does not mean SL's typical stadium sized environments are the answer. Instead build sensibly for a third person camera. That means furniture, cars, etcetera 1=1 scale, but scale up building interiors slightly and deliberately for the camera. Ceilings, specifically, should be a little taller than 1=1 scale. The average ceiling in the average American home is 9 feet or 274cm high. As a practical matter I would push ceilings up to 3 or even 4m high and I wouldn't make your average room smaller than 10x10m. This is still far smaller than what I typically see in SL, and doesn't look out of place with 1=1 scale furnishings. Remember to keep windows where they should be for 1=1 scale buildings, though, otherwise your avatar is staring at the wall, wishing they could see the outside world.

 I have gotten away with 3x5m bathrooms and 5x5m rooms, but those should be an exception. Bathrooms, closets and small structures like sheds where you'll only ever have 1 or 2 avatars at a time and limited against-the-walls furnishings to leave room to walk. If you plan to host jacuzzi parties in your bathroom, plan for 10x10 at least.

 And content creators remember, you can make smaller doors that any avatar can fit through simply by making the wall above the door phantom. Use all the suggestions I mention plus this door trick and even your average 8-9' tall goomba guy can fit into and comfortably navigate your environments.

 

 Also, just want to add that my camera placement HUD remains popular and I receive positive comments regularly from people who use my camera position settings and advocate them to their friends. At one point LL was planning to include my settings as one of the selectable presets, but according to one Linden who shall remain nameless, this was overruled by some Linden higher up the food chain. Probably the same Linden who said "rigged mesh will never catch on", "fitted mesh will never catch on and is a waste of time", "there is absolutely no reason anyone would ever want to hide part or all of their system avatar" and "Moving pictures are just a fad. Radio is where it's at!" (All of those except the last one were actual, official, LL company policy at one point and stymied SL's development for years as a result.)

 

 Want to try my camera? Check out the links in Nalate's post here.

 

Goodbye for now everyone, and remember these are only suggestions. Enjoy your SL how you choose to! There's room for everyone.  (Just, you know, knock it off with the false "child av" accusations at everyone shorter than 7' and boobs smaller than an H-cup, ok?)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

47 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

Breaking my long Forum silence for a rebuttal to this, there are several practical reasons smaller avatars are better for SL.

• It is literally impossible for women to have proportionate avatars at unrealistic sizes. Some bonehead early on at LL decided that women have proportionately shorter arms than men (they do not). So if you use a woman's shape and set your arm length to 65, it will be much shorter, proportionate to the rest of the body, than the same setting on a male shape. Women need their arm length in the 80-100 range just to have proportionate arms in the 5'5"-6' range. For men this problem is less pronounced but still, once your avatar is over 7' tall it becomes increasingly difficult to have human proportions. This is part of why so many men (the vast majority in fact) have tiny heads, short arms, and stretched out looking bodies.
• Smaller mesh objects tend to use less Land Impact. This means if you build to scale, you can literally build larger, more detailed environments regardless of the amount of land you own. My current avatar is a 7'2" fantasy character, (I have to use several proportion tricks that won't work for human avatars to minimize the aforementioned proportion issues) but I still build close to real world scale for that reason, as well as the reason below.
• When everyone has nearly maxed out height settings, nobody is "tall". In SL you can create shapes between 4' and 9' tall. This should mean you could have (proportion issues aside) a Lady Dimitrescu sized dommy mommy towering over most people. However this is not the case as most SL men are between 7 and 9' tall. (Also the same bonehead responsible for the arms decided women are not allowed to be as tall as men so maximum height for women is shorter, but still a fantastical size compared to human proportions.) Sorry guys, but if you're a typical SL man then you will never have a giant woman sit on you and you will never experience Snu Snu. You have only yourself to blame.
• Smaller environments encourage avatars to mingle closer together. For a club this means more people will be in chat range of everyone else, rather than being out of chat range from people halfway across the dance floor. For other types of sims, such as RP sims, this means it becomes far easier to use environmental tricks to guide visitors towards communal areas rather than having them crowd up at your landing point/foyer. My own current sim has a 10x10 foyer with a ceiling design  that makes it feel more like 5x5. Not enough to drive people out of the sim, but enough that they never linger at the landing point and instead continue into the sim itself. There are also "travel tunnels" connecting to other sims, which are 11x4x3.5m. Large enough to easily navigate without issue, but small enough no one lingers there either. Everyone winds up in the communal areas as intended, leading to a more active sim overall.

 

 I do want to address the issue of building to exactly 1=1 scale. Phil is quite right, you shouldn't. Even with my adjusted camera settings a 1=1 scale room will feel cramped, unless you're in first person mode or VR. Let's be honest, SL's first person mode sucks, always has, and VR will remain impractical for SL until LL finally addresses the optimization issue (don't hold your breath).

HOWEVER that does not mean SL's typical stadium sized environments are the answer. Instead build sensibly for a third person camera. That means furniture, cars, etcetera 1=1 scale, but scale up building interiors slightly and deliberately for the camera. Ceilings, specifically, should be a little taller than 1=1 scale. The average ceiling in the average American home is 9 feet or 274cm high. As a practical matter I would push ceilings up to 3 or even 4m high and I wouldn't make your average room smaller than 10x10m. This is still far smaller than what I typically see in SL, and doesn't look out of place with 1=1 scale furnishings. Remember to keep windows where they should be for 1=1 scale buildings, though, otherwise your avatar is staring at the wall, wishing they could see the outside world.

 I have gotten away with 3x5m bathrooms and 5x5m rooms, but those should be an exception. Bathrooms, closets and small structures like sheds where you'll only ever have 1 or 2 avatars at a time and limited against-the-walls furnishings to leave room to walk. If you plan to host jacuzzi parties in your bathroom, plan for 10x10 at least.

 And content creators remember, you can make smaller doors that any avatar can fit through simply by making the wall above the door phantom. Use all the suggestions I mention plus this door trick and even your average 8-9' tall goomba guy can fit into and comfortably navigate your environments.

 

 Also, just want to add that my camera placement HUD remains popular and I receive positive comments regularly from people who use my camera position settings and advocate them to their friends. At one point LL was planning to include my settings as one of the selectable presets, but according to one Linden who shall remain nameless, this was overruled by some Linden higher up the food chain. Probably the same Linden who said "rigged mesh will never catch on", "fitted mesh will never catch on and is a waste of time", "there is absolutely no reason anyone would ever want to hide part or all of their system avatar" and "Moving pictures are just a fad. Radio is where it's at!" (All of those except the last one were actual, official, LL company policy at one point and stymied SL's development for years as a result.)

 

 Want to try my camera? Check out the links in Nalate's post here.

 

Goodbye for now everyone, and remember these are only suggestions. Enjoy your SL how you choose to! There's room for everyone.  (Just, you know, knock it off with the false "child av" accusations at everyone shorter than 7' and boobs smaller than an H-cup, ok?)

I was wondering when you'd show up . . . 🙂

Thank you for this.