The Second Life Mission Discussion

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

7 hours ago, cunomar said:

So i don't understand the war on individual opinion ? the banner toting argumentative "you will see things my way" passive aggressive assault on all that makes us human .

I'm happy for those who have time to block traffic chanting save the planet , I might have even agreed with them once . But I have work to do if i'm to pay my rent and by preventing me from doing that you made me deaf to your cause - you made an enemy of a potential  ally .

I'd not be at all surprised to learn that repeats of the TV show "Till death do us part" have been banned though Alf Garnett's script was genius at bringing general acceptance with a smile to millions at home with innuendo .

Is there a Carry on film that doesn't feature crossdressing lol

Wage war against someone who doesn't want to fight and you can bet your bottom dollar they will eventually turn against you .

If you saw someone hitting your child wouldn't you try to get them to see things your way, get them to understand it's wrong to strike someone, especially a child. That's all that's going on here; there's no assault on anything that "makes us human", rather it's people who fight for equality denouncing abuse where those with the most power are taking advantage of others with less power.

I'm not sure you understand how change happens in a society. Protests have been a major impetus for changing laws and people's minds.

For example:
Women got tired not being able to vote and protested for years, finally achieving their goal.
Gays protested and stood up to the police at the Stonewall riot, and this was a major incident causing society to change attitudes toward them. 
Medication for AIDS was finally developed because gay people protested and demanded that the issue be addressed seriously.
The protests of the Civil Rights era in the US ushered in great gains for the rights of black people.
War protests helped end the Viet Nam war.

I could go on and on with examples, but the point is that change doesn't just happen automatically; there must be pushback against forms of oppression because those in power want to keep their advantages.

[Coffee Pancake]

No one ever got anything by asking the vested in-group nicely.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

No one ever got anything by asking the vested in-group nicely.

Oh, we ask them nicely once, because we're all decent human beings, right? If they then keep slapping, even after we've turned the two cheeks in front AND the two behind, then a teensy bit of slapping back might be in order

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 minute ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Oh, we ask them nicely once, because we're all decent human beings, right? If they then keep slapping, even after we've turned the two cheeks in front AND the two behind, then a teensy bit of slapping back might be in order

I'm thinking they encourage you to get to that point so they can whine that they are the abused ones. 🙄

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Many people feel so strongly on an issue that they go to considerable personal inconvenience to protest. You can't dismiss them as "people who have the time to..."

And is not the whole point of effective protest to be inconvenient to society at large? To cause a sharp enough itch that folks have to wake up and scratch?

I'm sorry you were inconvenienced by the protest, but to turn round and say "because it caused inconvenience to me, I wont care about your cause" seems a little telling to me - if you react like that to the protest I think I can make a pretty fair guess as to how you'd react to any solution to the problem that required the slightest sacrifice on your part. Which actually, now I think about it, would make you a legitimate target of the protest, wouldn't it?

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

This.

If you're so shallow as to abandon or dismiss a worthwhile and just cause because it makes you a little late for work, you're saying a great deal more about your own ethics and your commitment to the principles of justice than about the "tactics" of protestors.

I'm not sure you're being entirely fair here. At least regarding this particular point he made.

I'd argue that being able to take the time, or know you can endure the risk of losing your job in order to make a point is a privilege in of itself.

Would we ask a single mother raising children to risk her job in order to protest recent rulings, or would we understand if she went to work instead? Would we blame her if her employer punished her for being late because she got blocked by a protest?

I'm certainly not saying people's issues should be dismissed.

That said, I do think it's incredibly foolish to screw with someone's day to day life, do things like block medical vehicles and potentially cause the deaths of the patients, then be surprised when people don't agree with your cause. Even if it is valid.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm not sure you're being entirely fair here. At least regarding this particular point he made.

I'd argue that being able to take the time, or know you can endure the risk of losing your job in order to make a point is a privilege in of itself.

Would we ask a single mother raising children to risk her job in order to protest recent rulings, or would we understand if she went to work instead? Would we blame her if her employer punished her for being late because she got blocked by a protest?

I'm certainly not saying people's issues should be dismissed.

That said, I do think it's incredibly foolish to screw with someone's day to day life, do things like block medical vehicles and potentially cause the deaths of the patients, then be surprised when people don't agree with your cause. Even if it is valid.

"WE" wouldnt ask that of anyone. People make those choices for themselves. If you were part of those protests, part of those movements you might be surprised what people are prepared to risk in the name of a cause they believe in. But it's not "asked of them" - THEY decide on whether its something that they have to do in spite of the risk. And they have that right, whichever way their decision goes.

MOST well-organised protests that cause interference for transport have contingency plans in place for emergency vehicles. Even when they don't, an ambulance or fire truck is likely to be let through. Cop cars, not so much. They've spent too long pissing in the well unlike paramedics or firefighters.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

13 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm not sure you're being entirely fair here. At least regarding this particular point he made.

I'd argue that being able to take the time, or know you can endure the risk of losing your job in order to make a point is a privilege in of itself.

Would we ask a single mother raising children to risk her job in order to protest recent rulings, or would we understand if she went to work instead? Would we blame her if her employer punished her for being late because she got blocked by a protest?

I'm certainly not saying people's issues should be dismissed.

That said, I do think it's incredibly foolish to screw with someone's day to day life, do things like block medical vehicles and potentially cause the deaths of the patients, then be surprised when people don't agree with your cause. Even if it is valid.

Fair point . . . to a degree. There are protests and there are . . . protests. Well-run protests, like the picket lines of striking workers, don't cause these kinds of problems. And the number of people losing their jobs merely because a protest makes them late to work must be vanishingly small.

My main point stands, though. If your support for LGBTQ, for women, for blacks, for immigrants is contingent on them not inconveniencing you, it's pretty shallow. Effectively punishing those who need support because someone was a jerk to you at a protest is not evidence of a very well-developed understanding of what justice means.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

That said, I do think it's incredibly foolish to screw with someone's day to day life

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

3 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

That's not exactly a bad 4th of July beer to have around in copious quantities to keep the swarm of thirsty locusts extended family out of some of my own better brews. Back over here in Scotland I now have slightly different concerns of course.

You have to take what you can get in the US.  😉

[Phosphophyllite Trick]

On 7/4/2022 at 5:10 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

The classical Romans had a different definition of homosexuality than we do. To them being like a woman was one of the worst things a man could be, so being the passive/ receptive partner in sex was what constituted being homosexual. It was perfectly socially acceptable to them if a man was the active/ dominant person in sex, even if that was having sex with a teenage boy or a household slave. Sexual relations between two men of relatively equal social standing was also socially acceptable as long as one was not the receptive partner for penetrative sex. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_ancient_Rome

Thank you so much. People don't understand that the closest equivalent to Greco-Roman homosexuality today is certainly bacha bazi in Afghanistan.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 7/4/2022 at 6:10 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

The classical Romans had a different definition of homosexuality than we do. To them being like a woman was one of the worst things a man could be, so being the passive/ receptive partner in sex was what constituted being homosexual. It was perfectly socially acceptable to them if a man was the active/ dominant person in sex, even if that was having sex with a teenage boy or a household slave. Sexual relations between two men of relatively equal social standing was also socially acceptable as long as one was not the receptive partner for penetrative sex. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_ancient_Rome

As you suggest, what is most disturbing about Roman attitudes to male homosexuality is the violent and rather vile misogyny embedded within them. Basically the worst thing you can say about a man is that he had sex like a woman.

There was even a dedicated verb in Latin for violently f****** someone in the face: "irrumo." By implication, doing this to a man feminized him, and made him contemptible, so it was sometimes employed as a threat. Nice.

Both Catullus and Martial produced brief poems that curse/insult rivals and enemies using this kind of language. I can't reproduce them here: they'd get me banned.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[cunomar]

Maybe i just don't understand Americans?

I care about our natural habitat for sure , but start talking about the planet and i switch off . When somebody comes up with a suggestion for saving the planet that isn't fantastically lucrative for the kind of corporations that own insurance companies just so they can fiddle billions and call it petty cash - then i might listen .

I'm a fighter who has faced impossible odds more than once and won . Perhaps its the arrogance of my white privilege that made me get up and walk out when the hospital told me i'd never walk again , though I'd call it personal stubbornness . A few years later i was lucky enough to meet by chance a brilliant surgeon who was in awe of the fact i could walk so i'm fine now .

Its easy to say it because i didn't grow up in that era or place , but I find it very easy to imagine giving up my seat on the bus for Rosa Parks just because i live by my own rules , my own sense of right and wrong . I've no banner to tote because just live and let live is how i see it

The law is not written in stone , it evolves when a case challenges the principle . As convoluted as it has become the law at its core must work for the greater good .

[Scylla Rhiadra]

[ Redacted because it was unkind . . . but yeeeeeeesh ]

Edited July 5, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Paul Hexem]

5 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

And they have that right, whichever way their decision goes.

That's not the impression you gave the first time.

5 hours ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Even when they don't, an ambulance or fire truck is likely to be let through.

A quick internet search shows a surprising amount of times when that's not the case.

4 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

My main point stands, though. If your support for LGBTQ, for women, for blacks, for immigrants is contingent on them not inconveniencing you, it's pretty shallow. Effectively punishing those who need support because someone was a jerk to you at a protest is not evidence of a very well-developed understanding of what justice means.

While this is true, it downplays the real damage some protests actually have caused. I wouldn't call dying in the back of an ambulance an inconvenience. I wouldn't blame a heart attack or crash victim at all for not agreeing with people that almost killed them.

You're correct that not all protests are like that, but we as humans have a really bad habit of giving bad behavior a pass if we agree with the reason for it. I'm even a little guilty of it in my example.

3 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

 

I suspect Rosa's efforts would have gone down in history much differently, and she wouldn't have the respect she has today, if she had been blocking an ambulance.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Paul Hexem

[Da5id Weatherwax]

34 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That's not the impression you gave the first time.

Then, with respect, either the first time or this time, your impression of my opinion was wrong one of those times. Sometimes I'm not entirely clear, so that could easily have been my fault

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Da5id Weatherwax said:

Then, with respect, either the first time or this time, your impression of my opinion was wrong one of those times. Sometimes I'm not entirely clear, so that could easily have been my fault

Noted. A misunderstanding sort of fits with the point I'm trying to make, too.

That if we're not careful, the way we deliver our message can hurt our message, no matter how valid it may be.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

I wouldn't call dying in the back of an ambulance an inconvenience. I wouldn't blame a heart attack or crash victim at all for not agreeing with people that almost killed them.

You're correct that not all protests are like that, but we as humans have a really bad habit of giving bad behavior a pass if we agree with the reason for it.

Most people who protest care about saving life and want to maintain rights for people so they can live a good life, so it makes no sense they would jeopardize any person's life by not allowing an ambulance through.
No doubt there are some asshats among them, as for sure not all people who are in any kind of movement or within any group are mentally stable. Perhaps an ambulance was indeed blocked at some point, but if so I think this would be rare.
But I really think this was the far right trying to paint protesting, often done by the left, as bad. I see far right websites blasting them, calling them "eco-terrorists" at Breitbart "News", but in more reputable news sources I see this:

"Extinction Rebellion climate change activists have staged protests in the centre of London for a second day, blocking Vauxhall and Lambeth bridges.
Hundreds of protesters prevented cars and buses crossing but ambulances were let through."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-61057845

On Extinction Rebellion's website it states they let ambulances through:
https://twitter.com/xrebellionuk/status/1445262726146625536

"Extinction Rebellion has a strict policy of letting ambulances through our nonviolent protests. This is a matter of public record. Our policy is designed into every XR action, and we move aside for flashing lights and sirens – ambulances, fire engines, paramedics.
Comments made yesterday by Roger Hallam were made in his own capacity, about a hypothetical scenario, not on behalf of Extinction Rebellion.
XR does not have leaders or “bosses” as stated by some papers today, we are a decentralised movement.
In the face of the climate and ecological emergency happening now, Extinction Rebellion recognises the need for actions that are highly disruptive and controversial, while remaining committed to nonviolent civil disobedience".

https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2021/10/05/5th-october-statement/

Interestingly, since the far right did some of their own protests with the convoys in Canada I see less of the accusations levied against protests overall in more recent months.  I guess protests are good and nobody is ever harmed when they do it themselves? Hmmmm

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

2 hours ago, cunomar said:

Its easy to say it because i didn't grow up in that era or place , but I find it very easy to imagine giving up my seat on the bus for Rosa Parks just because i live by my own rules , my own sense of right and wrong . I've no banner to tote because just live and let live is how i see it

I'm glad you would not hoard a seat and make a middle-aged black woman stand at the back of the bus. I never thought otherwise, and I've never thought you were prejudiced yourself.

But if you had done that, you might have been beat up by those not wanting the social order rocked in any way.  It would have even been illegal for you to try to change the seating arrangements on the bus, and likely you'd have been arrested.

This is to say that in order to gain rights and create social change we need to join with others. There is power in numbers. It's fine for you to do the right thing as an individual as you claim you would have, and it's fine if you "have no banner to tote" and never want to join a group to help make a just society. I'm only saying that you as one individual cannot change society by yourself, and that's really what we're talking about here - how do we create equality as much as possible? What helps to achieve this? Even Rosa Parks, brave as she was when she refused to go to the back of that bus where the "colored' were assigned, had a whole movement in society behind her waiting to help.

[Paul Hexem]

4 hours ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Most people who protest care about saving life and want to maintain rights for people so they can live a good life, so it makes no sense they would jeopardize any person's life by not allowing an ambulance through.
No doubt there are some asshats among them, as for sure not all people who are in any kind of movement or within any group are mentally stable. Perhaps an ambulance was indeed blocked at some point, but if so I think this would be rare.
But I really think this was the far right trying to paint protesting, often done by the left, as bad. I see far right websites blasting them, calling them "eco-terrorists" at Breitbart "News", but in more reputable news sources I see this:

"Extinction Rebellion climate change activists have staged protests in the centre of London for a second day, blocking Vauxhall and Lambeth bridges.
Hundreds of protesters prevented cars and buses crossing but ambulances were let through."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-61057845

On Extinction Rebellion's website it states they let ambulances through:
https://twitter.com/xrebellionuk/status/1445262726146625536

"Extinction Rebellion has a strict policy of letting ambulances through our nonviolent protests. This is a matter of public record. Our policy is designed into every XR action, and we move aside for flashing lights and sirens – ambulances, fire engines, paramedics.
Comments made yesterday by Roger Hallam were made in his own capacity, about a hypothetical scenario, not on behalf of Extinction Rebellion.
XR does not have leaders or “bosses” as stated by some papers today, we are a decentralised movement.
In the face of the climate and ecological emergency happening now, Extinction Rebellion recognises the need for actions that are highly disruptive and controversial, while remaining committed to nonviolent civil disobedience".

https://extinctionrebellion.uk/2021/10/05/5th-october-statement/

Interestingly, since the far right did some of their own protests with the convoys in Canada I see less of the accusations levied against protests overall in more recent months.  I guess protests are good and nobody is ever harmed when they do it themselves? Hmmmm

All those words, just to prove me right.

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

You're correct that not all protests are like that, but we as humans have a really bad habit of giving bad behavior a pass if we agree with the reason for it.

 

[cunomar]

I am under no illusions with regard to the backlash i would very likely face , but if your not willing to accept the consequence of standing up for your principals .................... , and when i wound up in court i'd say i'm here because the law wrong .

First day of a new school I walked into the changing rooms to find the biggest kid in school punching a much smaller kid (about the same size as me) who was curled up in a ball on a bench . All my senses screamed for me to attack the bully but it would have been a suicide mission . Instead i told the kid to hit back . The bully stared at me and i stared right back .He knew i wasn't going down without a fight and so he walked away .

I didn't change the world but i'm sure i made life a little easier for someone . Kinda funny how years later he and his boyfriend decided to visit my black girlfriend and were horrified to find me there lol . I suppose because she was a fair bit older than me they never made the connection on hearing my name .

Please don't tell anybody they said which i found hilarious , tell anybody what - that you have both been very obviously gay for the whole world to see from the moment i met you all those years ago lol .

Rosa Parks courage as an individual changed the world and similar happens a million times a day though it rarely provokes a media circus .

If you care for the planet then show it by cultivating the garden of someone unable to do it themselves for financial or physical reasons . Do something useful instead of blocking roads causing people to spend twice as much time and fuel getting to work . Pissing off your peers in the hope it might move the mighty is simply ridiculous .

 

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, cunomar said:

Do something useful instead of blocking roads causing people to spend twice as much time and fuel getting to work . Pissing off your peers in the hope it might move the mighty is simply ridiculous .

So..as long as protests don't actually impact people, force them to take notice, they're fine. Got it. Wouldn't want to be late for work!

[Love Zhaoying]

So much extreme anti-protest ranting. I'd say "silly", but don't want to seem insulting. I'm reminded of the parody protest phrase from the 80's, "Nuke Santa Claus and Feed Him to the Whales".

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

4 hours ago, cunomar said:

I am under no illusions with regard to the backlash i would very likely face , but if your not willing to accept the consequence of standing up for your principals .................... , and when i wound up in court i'd say i'm here because the law wrong .

First day of a new school I walked into the changing rooms to find the biggest kid in school punching a much smaller kid (about the same size as me) who was curled up in a ball on a bench . All my senses screamed for me to attack the bully but it would have been a suicide mission . Instead i told the kid to hit back . The bully stared at me and i stared right back .He knew i wasn't going down without a fight and so he walked away .

I didn't change the world but i'm sure i made life a little easier for someone . Kinda funny how years later he and his boyfriend decided to visit my black girlfriend and were horrified to find me there lol . I suppose because she was a fair bit older than me they never made the connection on hearing my name .

Please don't tell anybody they said which i found hilarious , tell anybody what - that you have both been very obviously gay for the whole world to see from the moment i met you all those years ago lol .

Rosa Parks courage as an individual changed the world and similar happens a million times a day though it rarely provokes a media circus .

If you care for the planet then show it by cultivating the garden of someone unable to do it themselves for financial or physical reasons . Do something useful instead of blocking roads causing people to spend twice as much time and fuel getting to work . Pissing off your peers in the hope it might move the mighty is simply ridiculous .

 

There are many ways to change the world to make it better. All are needed.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

5 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

All those words, just to prove me right.

All those words did not prove you right. They proved that there is no evidence that Extinction Rebellion ever kept an ambulance from heading to their destination. If you want to continue claiming that these "ambulance accusations" are anything beyond a far right meme to trash those who are interfering with corporate gas profits by bringing awareness to climate change you will need to present evidence.

[Arielle Popstar]

7 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

All those words did not prove you right. They proved that there is no evidence that Extinction Rebellion ever kept an ambulance from heading to their destination. If you want to continue claiming that these "ambulance accusations" are anything beyond a far right meme to trash those who are interfering with corporate gas profits by bringing awareness to climate change you will need to present evidence.

You sure? Maybe you need to dig deeper and only looking at the news that supports your opinions.

"I would block ambulance with dying patient onboard, says XR founder Roger Hallam

Extinction Rebellion co-founder Roger Hallam said he would block an ambulance carrying a dying patient in order to get the group’s message across.

Yesterday, a crying woman begged Insulate Britain protesters blocking the Blackwall tunnel to allow her to pass so she could get to her hospitalised mother.

Hallam told The London Economic podcast, Unbreak the Planet with Mike Galsworthy, he would have stayed put had he been confronted with the tearful woman.

Mike asks Hallam: “If it were an ambulance and there was someone in there that could potentially die, would you stay there?”

“Yep,” Hallam instantly replies."

https://www.independent.co.uk/tv/climate/ambulance-roger-hallam-extinction-rebellion-v6cfe3668