Aggressive helper on New Player Island

[Prokofy Neva]

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

You're right about the guides having no special powers. However, the situation you're describing here has not happened, although the new onboarding system has been in operation for over a year now.

We've had some campers. Notably, a group of alts that camped right on the arrival point with billboards. With those and in chat, they directed Spanish speaking people to their regions. They were reported and after a few days, we didn't see them any more. There was one serial stalker who, in the guise of "helping", tried to get female newbies to divulge RL information. He too was reported and we haven't seen him in a while.

We've had some annoying folks, but none with weapons or serious griefing tools (object creation is disabled, so guns don't work). About the worst that's happened is a little aggressive bumping of people and harassing with foul language. Occasionally someone will take off their clothes (usually unintentionally). Most will put them back on again when asked politely.

Taken all in all, Welcome Island is... pleasantly boring. There's usually time to chat at length with those newcomers who will actually talk to you. The only problem is, most newbies won't talk to you at all. From questions I'm frequently asked, I think this is because most of them think we helpers are bots.

Well, this is a perfect example of why, instead of banning such activity, you should encourage it, but in fact have residents PAY for it as we used to pay for ad boards at the old telehubs.

Those motivated to take care of newbies in the theory they will eventually be good for their business (newbies don't usually buy Lindens right away and actually then rarely buy anything and instead look for ways to "earn money" which is usually hopelessly microscopic in amount in the way they are set up. 

or if they are an affinity group, like Spanish-speaking, they will help others find them -- currently there are only occasional international language boards scattered around.

The Lindens can limit such ads to 2 weeks, make the cost fairly high, and require that they be G rated. A newbie can click on something he's actually interested in, like shopping, live music, book clubs.

You might also theorize that many of the people don't speak English, and therefore don't talk to you; hence the Spanish speakers taking the opportunity. 

[Madison10292018]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, isn't that interesting. That means they finally went against their own religion favouring a randomizer script. They used to randomize sending of newbies to infohubs, including the resident-run old Linden resident hubs (such as we have in Ross). There you could see that the religious belief in randomizing didn't produce balance with that small a sample, so one day you might get 50 pile-ups at once at your site, because that's how randomness works, and then go days with nothing.

A true load balance would really literally divide them up equally and get equal outcomes as you indicate.

As I said, I don't believe in a system of resident-run intake. It's inherently inept and corrupt and hence ineffective.

As we speak, planet Earth is struggling with that system.

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

You might also theorize that many of the people don't speak English, and therefore don't talk to you; hence the Spanish speakers taking the opportunity.

You're not wrong, Prok. But the Spanish Campers were not authorized helpers. We'd be delighted if someone from that organization joined White Tiger Mentors and got qualified as a Guide, but these people didn't do that. Instead they cluttered up the arrival point with squatting bots, much like homeless beggars around a Metro station.

Every helper group I know is ALWAYS eager to recruit multi-lingual members.  I don't speak Spanish (or any language other than English). But I do have a translator and use it. I've helped many non-English speakers find locations where it will be easier for them both to meet speakers of their language and to find help in learning SL.

One thing that would make this a LOT easier is if more people would establish resident-run help areas for their particular nationality/language group, so as to have more places to send our newbies. The last major one remaining is Ajuda SL Brasil, a Portuguese region. There are a couple of half-hearted attempts at Spanish help areas. And that's pretty much it. There used to be areas for French, German, Polish, Russian, Turkish, and Italian speakers, but they're all long gone.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

You're not wrong, Prok. But the Spanish Campers were not authorized helpers. We'd be delighted if someone from that organization joined White Tiger Mentors and got qualified as a Guide, but these people didn't do that. Instead they cluttered up the arrival point with squatting bots, much like homeless beggars around a Metro station.

Every helper group I know is ALWAYS eager to recruit multi-lingual members.  I don't speak Spanish (or any language other than English). But I do have a translator and use it. I've helped many non-English speakers find locations where it will be easier for them both to meet speakers of their language and to find help in learning SL.

One thing that would make this a LOT easier is if more people would establish resident-run help areas for their particular nationality/language group, so as to have more places to send our newbies. The last major one remaining is Ajuda SL Brasil, a Portuguese region. There are a couple of half-hearted attempts at Spanish help areas. And that's pretty much it. There used to be areas for French, German, Polish, Russian, Turkish, and Italian speakers, but they're all long gone.

Why should they have to join your group?! And you didn't think to invite them! Why can only some people be blessed by the mentors and not others? And the Lindens didn't even think to cultivate Spanish speaking helper groups

You're absolutely wrong about how there are no language/nationality helper regions! Come and get my International Bazaar and you will see many of them, not just this one Ajuda. To be sure, Ilha Brasil closed awhile ago, and like Sovkovo, the Russian sim, which closed long before the latest Russian invasion in fact, in 2021, austerity in their countries probably drove them out. 

But there are still indeed Russian, German etc areas. There are Taiwanese and all kinds of groups. They may be clubs or sandboxes, but that's actually better than the classic Linden conceived newbie helping area, imitated by their fanz, which is "learn to build and drive" and not "dance or get outfits". Remember the painful game where you had to not only learn to zig-zag a vehicle but kill rats with it. Honestly...

[C0ui]

6 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Well, isn't that interesting. That means they finally went against their own religion favouring a randomizer script. They used to randomize sending of newbies to infohubs, including the resident-run old Linden resident hubs (such as we have in Ross). There you could see that the religious belief in randomizing didn't produce balance with that small a sample, so one day you might get 50 pile-ups at once at your site, because that's how randomness works, and then go days with nothing.

A true load balance would really literally divide them up equally and get equal outcomes as you indicate.

As I said, I don't believe in a system of resident-run intake. It's inherently inept and corrupt and hence ineffective.

For over past two years LL no longer sends new avatars to Community Gateways (CGs) randomly.  They are trying something different now, which had resulted in a current WI2 program and decommissioning last Learning Island as a spawning spot (that one had a random CG funneling TP center, where most CGs got their traffic from then).
I would not be surprised if LL decides to promote more New-Account-Spawning areas in Addition to existing 3 (WI2, OI, AI). So far all 3 current ones are different in methodology and spirit, and perhaps next step for LL would be to try something different still. I think one of the major concerns for them has always been a quality of the help new account gets in the newcomer places, so they decided to get a better grep over it by locking newcomer experience in a 3 somewhat competing models.
Today, and for a past year or so,  instead of new accounts - CGs only get a fraction of the "old" traffic of people who are looking for something particular (classes, languages, builder experience, clothing or general help etc).  Initially I got sad about it since particular CG I was working with "ran out of newcomers" in a matter of days, and remains largely empty. I do hope though that with time LL would realize CGs should be placed back in the newcomer path and therefore in the hands of the eager qualified helpers.

 

[C0ui]

4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

You're not wrong, Prok. But the Spanish Campers were not authorized helpers. We'd be delighted if someone from that organization joined White Tiger Mentors and got qualified as a Guide, but these people didn't do that. Instead they cluttered up the arrival point with squatting bots, much like homeless beggars around a Metro station.

Every helper group I know is ALWAYS eager to recruit multi-lingual members.  I don't speak Spanish (or any language other than English). But I do have a translator and use it. I've helped many non-English speakers find locations where it will be easier for them both to meet speakers of their language and to find help in learning SL.

One thing that would make this a LOT easier is if more people would establish resident-run help areas for their particular nationality/language group, so as to have more places to send our newbies. The last major one remaining is Ajuda SL Brasil, a Portuguese region. There are a couple of half-hearted attempts at Spanish help areas. And that's pretty much it. There used to be areas for French, German, Polish, Russian, Turkish, and Italian speakers, but they're all long gone.

Actually much of language specific help still remains and destinations are listed under international section of the Destination Guide. Lots of it is hit&miss so regular search still works, as well as Language Specific Firestorm Support Groups still offer general SL help occasionally, based on specific language group policy.

[C0ui]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Why should they have to join your group?! And you didn't think to invite them! Why can only some people be blessed by the mentors and not others? And the Lindens didn't even think to cultivate Spanish speaking helper groups

You're absolutely wrong about how there are no language/nationality helper regions! Come and get my International Bazaar and you will see many of them, not just this one Ajuda. To be sure, Ilha Brasil closed awhile ago, and like Sovkovo, the Russian sim, which closed long before the latest Russian invasion in fact, in 2021, austerity in their countries probably drove them out. 

But there are still indeed Russian, German etc areas. There are Taiwanese and all kinds of groups. They may be clubs or sandboxes, but that's actually better than the classic Linden conceived newbie helping area, imitated by their fanz, which is "learn to build and drive" and not "dance or get outfits". Remember the painful game where you had to not only learn to zig-zag a vehicle but kill rats with it. Honestly...

Agree, Moscow is still standing. They have a campy 2009 tutorial they had built for the International Gateway program back then, and they still see some random newcomer traffic. I see folks visiting  all 3 Spanish Help regions all the time, and some even have helpers on duty, most of whom are conveniently bilingual.  In  AJUDA SL BRASIL there is actually a board with helpers' online indicators, and they'd take over a session with Portuguese only speaker with much enthusiasm. International SL is still very much alive, even though LL refuses the idea of writing a Guidebook in other languages:)

 

[Lindal Kidd]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Why should they have to join your group?! And you didn't think to invite them!

I had a nice long pedantic reply to this, but deleted it.  I will simply say, you don't know what you're talking about. But that's no news.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

13 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I had a nice long pedantic reply to this, but deleted it.  I will simply say, you don't know what you're talking about. But that's no news.

 

Well, go with the pedantic reply if you like, but C0ui also refuted your claims. International SL definitely lives, I see them in my rentals and all over at events and maintain the listserve of international/language/country sims. To be sure, there has been attrition as with islands in general in SL. Bellisseria in fact has many "foreigners" who aren't represented and visible in the "commuuuunity" constantly flogged here. That's SL. I don't know why the Lindens wouldn't do the guidebook in other languages. Likely because they wanted to get it done by volunteers and not pay for it. 

In addition to Moscow Island, there is a literary club Cafe "MaSSoLit" - Russia - and a very active Russian speakers group with some members who promote real information about the war in Ukraine and who stand with Ukraine.

Helper systems deployed at entry ways have for nearly 20 years not really helped anyone but the "need to be needed" and do not decrease the attrition rate. They cannot compete with griefers, for one. The Lindens need to put full-time, paid, benefited staff on this job as they once did and cure it. The end.

So what got premiums to increase? Making little boxes on the hillside -- Bellisseria. That was the right thing to do and keep doing. It cost a lot in manpower even at the low contracting rates of Moles, and of course customer service is through the ceiling along with 3 am forums calls to put out fires from unhappy campers.

But surprise surprise, people want virtuality to be like real life. And so they shall have it or leave.

When you go to RL Grand Central station, there are no "greeters" and "helpers". Instead, there is what we call "advertising". When you land at JFK, there are no "greeters" and "helpers". Instead, there are taxi drivers trying to sell you their services. So it has to be made more like RL.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Silent Mistwalker]

And to think SL could have been better than RL. Lost opportunity is lost.

[Lindal Kidd]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

there is a literary club Cafe "MaSSoLit" - Russia - and a very active Russian speakers group with some members who promote real information about the war in Ukraine and who stand with Ukraine.

So instead of instruction on how to teleport, get dressed, search, and communicate you suggest we should instead sit down for a nice discussion of Dostoyevsky and a pointless (in SL) political debate.  Very helpful.

This applies to the other international but non-newbie-oriented destinations as well. These people need help getting started in SL. My point that there are very few such locations in the SL international community stands.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

They (resident helpers) cannot compete with griefers, for one.

Yes we can. We do.

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

When you go to RL Grand Central station, there are no "greeters" and "helpers". Instead, there is what we call "advertising". When you land at JFK, there are no "greeters" and "helpers". Instead, there are taxi drivers trying to sell you their services.

Um...your answer to the problem is to replace the live helpers with ad farms? When the target audience doesn't yet know a good product from a bad one, know what things they actually want, know how to get there, know how to buy an item from a vendor, and, most importantly, HAVE ANY MONEY? And just which SL merchants will be allowed to place ads in the limited space of an onboarding region?

Prok, you've made some wild suggestions in the past, but that's the craziest one yet.

I might point out that immigrants arriving at Grand Central or JFK don't pay any attention to the ads either. They call their pre-arranged contact, a relative, a friend, a friend of a friend...to come get them and show them around.

Kind of like us live helpers in SL, know what I mean?

[belindacarson]

Shame on these "white tigers" like it's actually a status symbol.  You're merely crying "look at Me and what I'm doing" for doing something that 99% of users do whenever we encounter a new user.  Offended by the actions of a helper or a new user? Oh whoopee, grow some testicles and mute/ block them instead of crying how you're being "discriminated" against 😒

Edited June 19, 2022 by belindacarson
for arity I've 99.9% of those keyboard warriors the white tigers blocked especially those who "blog" and claim to be experts. 😂

[Prokofy Neva]

11 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

So instead of instruction on how to teleport, get dressed, search, and communicate you suggest we should instead sit down for a nice discussion of Dostoyevsky and a pointless (in SL) political debate.  Very helpful.

This applies to the other international but non-newbie-oriented destinations as well. These people need help getting started in SL. My point that there are very few such locations in the SL international community stands.

Yes we can. We do.

Um...your answer to the problem is to replace the live helpers with ad farms? When the target audience doesn't yet know a good product from a bad one, know what things they actually want, know how to get there, know how to buy an item from a vendor, and, most importantly, HAVE ANY MONEY? And just which SL merchants will be allowed to place ads in the limited space of an onboarding region?

Prok, you've made some wild suggestions in the past, but that's the craziest one yet.

I might point out that immigrants arriving at Grand Central or JFK don't pay any attention to the ads either. They call their pre-arranged contact, a relative, a friend, a friend of a friend...to come get them and show them around.

Kind of like us live helpers in SL, know what I mean?

Did you miss the post where I talked about shopping, dressing, clubbing, etc? I don't think there's a place in SL you can read Dostoevsky, let alone discuss his works, not even Draxtor's Book Club which is far more hipster.

There are not "very few" but "a lot" as we keep explaining. If a Taiwanese half sim isn't called "welcome area" or "newbies' helping station," it doesn't mean there isn't a lot of helping that goes on there. In fact, the less boring these sites look, the more they help.

Ad billboards are not "ad farms". That's merely your prejudice. Perhaps you don't remember the telehubs and their ad system which were very useful -- they shouldn't have been killed off. The Lindens obviously edit them and they are tastefully arranged as part of the infohub/welcome build and rotate. It's how I as a newbie found sites like Riverwalk, which sadly no more.

I've made this suggestion thousands of times, and put it into the "Meet the Linden" suggestions, and all they have to do is battle all the prejudices of older staff and the fanbase to see their way clear to doing this smart thing again. 

The problem with your romantic vision of the helpers is that they do just that, call their tight-knit community and sling landmarks to their friends' stores. And lose people.

[Lindal Kidd]

If that's your take-away on what I've said here, I'm very sorry, @belindacarson.

Yes, I'm proud to be a White Tiger Guide. I'm also proud to be a Dean at Caledon Oxbridge University. However, I see these as a result of all the help I've provided in the past, and continue to provide...not a "status symbol."

No, I am not crying about "being discriminated against"(where did THAT come from!?). Nor am I offended by the actions of untrained helpers, new users, or even griefers. If someone says something truly annoying, yes, I'll block them, and then carry on with what I'm doing. If someone does something that's against the ToS, I'll AR them.

I think you missed the part earlier in the thread where I said I knew of the particular person the OP referred to, and I had NOT reported her, even though I thought her "help" was often not that helpful. But hearing, through the OP, that that person's actions had caused their friend to consider leaving SL made me re-think that.

Am I trying to somehow protect a particular little piece of turf as "mine"? Far from it. I have not sought to copyright or restrict ANY of the tools, classes, notecards, or information I've created over the years, and have freely distributed it to anyone who asks. Or even to passing strangers who didn't ask.  I WANT to share what I've learned about SL with others; that's the very reason I'm a helper.

I'm not concerned about protecting some fiefdom; I'm concerned about providing actual, factual, polite, HELPFUL assistance to newcomers.

And, thank you for helping newbies you come across...we all need to do that. But if you want to do that particular task (helping newbies) more effectively, you have to go where the newbies are. And to do THAT, you need to join one or more of the resident helper groups. We're always looking for new helpers, so instead of arguing here, what are you waiting for? Go in world, join a group, and volunteer some of your time.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Lindal Kidd

[Prokofy Neva]

15 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Shame on these "white tigers" like it's actually a status symbol.  You're merely crying "look at Me and what I'm doing" for doing something that 99% of users do whenever we encounter a new user.  Offended by the actions of a helper or a new user? Oh whoopee, grow some testicles and mute/ block them instead of crying how you're being "discriminated" against 😒

The first half of what you said is spot on. The second half may be something a newbie hasn't figured out how to do yet.

[Prokofy Neva]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

If that's your take-away on what I've said here, I'm very sorry, @belindacarson.

Yes, I'm proud to be a White Tiger Guide. I'm also proud to be a Dean at Caledon Oxbridge University. However, I see these as a result of all the help I've provided in the past, and continue to provide...not a "status symbol."

No, I am not crying about "being discriminated against"(where did THAT come from!?). Nor am I offended by the actions of untrained helpers, new users, or even griefers. If someone says something truly annoying, yes, I'll block them, and then carry on with what I'm doing. If someone does something that's against the ToS, I'll AR them.

Am I trying to somehow protect a particular little piece of turf as "mine"? Far from it. I have not sought to copyright or restrict ANY of the tools, classes, notecards, or information I've created over the years, and have freely distributed it to anyone who asks. Or even to passing strangers who didn't ask.  I WANT to share what I've learned about SL with others; that's the very reason I'm a helper.

And, thank you for helping newbies you come across...we all need to do that. But if you want to do that particular task (helping newbies) more effectively, you have to go where the newbies are. And to do THAT, you need to join one or more of the resident helper groups. We're always looking for new helpers, so instead of arguing here, what are you waiting for? Go in world, join a group, and volunteer some of your time.

 

[Lindal Kidd]

9 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

The problem with your romantic vision of the helpers is that they do just that, call their tight-knit community and sling landmarks to their friends' stores.

I cannot speak for every helper. But I know darn well that I don't give out "landmarks to my friends' stores." My landmark card has been extensively researched to include links to FREE stores and items. I don't know any of the owners.  It also includes LMs to not only the help regions I'm a member of, but other help regions as well. I've read similar materials developed by other helpers, and have not seen the sort of cronyism you claim at all.

Besides, I don't have any friends who own stores.

As for a "tight knit community"...well, there's a little truth in that. I see the same names over and over in helper groups. But that is not because we're trying to keep others out. It's because those who enjoy doing this job are relatively few. We're always looking for new volunteers.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Lindal Kidd

[Luna Bliss]

24 minutes ago, belindacarson said:

Offended by the actions of a helper or a new user? Oh whoopee, grow some testicles and mute/ block them instead of crying how you're being "discriminated" against 😒

I am compelled to inform you that you have displayed reproductive organ discrimination  
The correct nomenclature is 'ovary-testicle', as in "you need to grow some ovary-testicles".

[Lindal Kidd]

21 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Ad billboards are not "ad farms". That's merely your prejudice. Perhaps you don't remember the telehubs and their ad system which were very useful -- they shouldn't have been killed off. The Lindens obviously edit them and they are tastefully arranged as part of the infohub/welcome build and rotate. It's how I as a newbie found sites like Riverwalk, which sadly no more.

I wasn't born yesterday, Prok. I do remember the ads at the telehubs. As a newbie, I even made use of them. Nowadays we have a much better, larger, system, and it also rotates its content.

It's called the Destination Guide.

[Lindal Kidd]

17 hours ago, C0ui said:

I see folks visiting  all 3 Spanish Help regions all the time, and some even have helpers on duty, most of whom are conveniently bilingual.  In  AJUDA SL BRASIL there is actually a board with helpers' online indicators, and they'd take over a session with Portuguese only speaker with much enthusiasm.

When I see a Spanish or Portuguese speaker at Welcome Island 2, I always ask them "Would you like to go to a Spanish (Portuguese) help area?" If they say yes, I take them there.

My point is that we used to have, and still desperately need, such regions in other languages.

As a partial solution, Caledon Oxbridge has developed a multi-lingual version of an information kiosk, the core of their walk through tutorial. It's five times the work to make slides for them, but now several of the tutorials there can be viewed in several different languages.

[Luna Bliss]

I think @Lindal KiddI'd be a little peeved if Prok accused me of not being authentic. Really, this is something only you can know...your true motivation.  And if you do "need to be needed" well so what...needing to help others is a helluva lot better than what some people choose to do with their time.!

[animats]

On 6/17/2022 at 7:26 AM, Lindal Kidd said:

However, Social Island is no longer a part of the onboarding experience.

Oh, finally. As I've pointed out before, Social Island 10 is the Port Authority Bus Terminal of Second Life.

Onboarding is still a problem for Second Life.

I  was recently flying a helicopter over Zindra's ocean, and noticed an unusually large number of avatars at the western "safe hub". So I stopped there to see what was happening. It was just a bot pileup. There are bots with control programs that can't cope with a sim restart. So they pile up at safe hubs. But there was one real user, one day old, frustrated that no one would talk to him.

• Joe Magarac (animats): I hate to tell you this, but there's almost nobody here. These are almost all ad bots.
• Joe Magarac (animats): Is this really day one for you?
• New user: ye this is
• Joe Magarac (animats): I'd suggest going to Firestorm Help Island or New Resident Services or New User Island or London City.
• Joe Magarac (animats): The Linden hubs are useless.
• Joe Magarac (animats): They're really just emergency assembly points for when a region has an outage.
• New user: oh ok
• New user: thx for telling me
• Joe Magarac (animats): Good luck in SL. It's like arriving in a strange city and having no clue.
• Joe Magarac (animats): It's not like a game. The world is completely indifferent to you, like a big city.
• New user: lol this is exactly what im feeling rn
• Joe Magarac (animats): Try Firestorm Help Island. that's a friendly place run by volunteers.
• Joe Magarac (animats): It's usually staffed.
• New user: thanks!

The safe hubs need some attention. They look nice, but they're so useless. They need something to deal wtih bot pileup, such as an experience that seats them on waiting room furniture if they don't do anything for a long time. Their signage is out of date, with dead links. They have little transportation to elsewhere.

Edited June 19, 2022 by animats

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I wasn't born yesterday, Prok. I do remember the ads at the telehubs. As a newbie, I even made use of them. Nowadays we have a much better, larger, system, and it also rotates its content.

It's called the Destination Guide.

The destination guide isn't a thing. 

Where aren't the people ? At places listed in that guide.

Where is that guide, who knows .. who uses it .. almost no one.

[Quistess Alpha]

1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Where is that guide, who knows .. who uses it .. almost no one.

I know it's a rhetorical question, but destination guide is here: https://secondlife.com/destinations

and in the standard LL viewer there's even a special floater for it, and a curated list of places pops up in the screen nobody looks too closely at as you log in.

The only time I've really used it is if I have to find where the maitreya mainstore is (maitreya is so popular it's impossible to find them in search) or if I'm looking for something really geneneral (ex. animations) and I want to make sure I've covered my bases.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I wasn't born yesterday, Prok. I do remember the ads at the telehubs. As a newbie, I even made use of them. Nowadays we have a much better, larger, system, and it also rotates its content.

It's called the Destination Guide.

So you're saying I can buy a spot on the Destination Guide? That's a great idea! They should do that! But it's not a much, better, larger system because it is edited and run by the Lindens, not residents willing to help newbies as part of their business.