1 second Orb timing, is it necessary

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

You do realise that the onus is on you to prove that claim?

Ignorance of a law is not usually considered an excuse, so the onus is actually on you, but in any case here it is:

"You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
• Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
• Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms."

Hair splitting definitions of the relevant words only shows an inability to perceive the spirit of the law rather than lawyering up to justify behaviour that was not intended.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Hair splitting definitions of the relevant words only shows an inability to perceive the spirit of the law rather than lawyering up to justify behaviour that was not intended.

 

16 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.

"Adequate"? Disagreeing over a squishy word like that isn't "hair-splitting".  

[Gabriele Graves]

20 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ignorance of a law is not usually considered an excuse, so the onus is actually on you, but in any case here it is:

"You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
• Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
• Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms."

Hair splitting definitions of the relevant words only shows an inability to perceive the spirit of the law rather than lawyering up to justify behaviour that was not intended.

 

There was no hair splitting involved.  Words have meaning.  I suggest you have misunderstood them and are reading too much into what they mean.

Until an actual Linden employee states for all to see that violating the recommendations in that KB article are to be treated as ToS violations your opinion has no more weight than the counter view.
I would also expect that article to be linked from the ToS if it were to be treated as such anything else would be grossly remiss.

If LL wanted to enforce what is recommended in that article for mainland, they could at any point.  We have yet to see any evidence that they have done so or seen a Linden employee state publicly that they have done so or intend to do so.

You are entitled to your interpretation of course but that is all it is.

My opinion is that it is grasping at straws in the wind.
 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Coffee Pancake]

19 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ignorance of a law is not usually considered an excuse, so the onus is actually on you, but in any case here it is

Quote

teleporting them home is generally acceptable;

 

Bye Felicia.

[Arielle Popstar]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 

"Adequate"? Disagreeing over a squishy word like that isn't "hair-splitting".  

It would take some stretch of the imagination to have a 0 or 1 second delay in a boot qualify as "Adequate".

[Coffee Pancake]

5 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It would take some stretch of the imagination to have a 0 or 1 second delay in a boot qualify as "Adequate".

Quote

 

....Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning....

 

Deliberately removing the context of that singular word is disingenuous and arguing in bad faith, or do you presume us all stupid.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Arielle Popstar]

5 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Deliberately removing the context of that singular word is disingenuous and arguing in bad faith, or do you presume us all stupid.

No one removed the context. Speaking of disingenuous and bad faith, some keep making this debate out to be 

Quote "This discussion is about having the right to enter all parcels under the pretext of "exploring". Lag has nothing to do with it and at this point is just an attempt to excuse bad behavior."/quote https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/487329-1-second-orb-timing-is-it-necessary/?do=findComment&comment=2460522

Whereas the title of the thread as well as every poster posting so far has debated directly about the 0 or 1 second boot problem, not the wanting to explore someone's house or mess with your stuff.

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Deliberately removing the context of that singular word is disingenuous and arguing in bad faith, or do you presume us all stupid.

Oooh, right! "Generally", and "Should" are different than say, "Always" and "Must".

[Gabriele Graves]

I would like to further point out that the article in question only uses the word "mainland" once in the whole text and that is in reference to transferring land between residents.  This qualification suggests that the rest of the article is designed to be a guide with helpful suggestions and recommendations like most KB articles and as such is meant generally to help people with their private estate parcels as well where applicable.

There is no such qualification on the scripting area that has been posted.  I would think it is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that LL is really laying down the law here to a private region owner that they must give "adequate warning" before their orb ejects someone from a parcel on their private region.  Absolutely hilarious.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

No one removed the context. Speaking of disingenuous and bad faith, some keep making this debate out to be 

Quote "This discussion is about having the right to enter all parcels under the pretext of "exploring".

Did you know, that "pretext" means more "excuse" than "reason"?

From the Miriam-Webster definition:

 a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or state of affairs

From the Oxford definition:

a reason given in justification of a course of action that is not the real reason.

From the Cambridge definition:

"a pretended reason for doing something that is used to hide the real reason"

*Edit* These were the first / main definitions in each case. I stopped looking after the 3rd I reviewed. None that I looked at were different. (I didn't "cheat.")

Edited June 1, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ignorance of a law is not usually considered an excuse, so the onus is actually on you, but in any case here it is:

"You can use scripted objects to enhance your land ownership tools. Generally, such scripts should:

• Provide adequate warning to the undesired Resident.
• Only work within the property lines (this includes projectiles that cannot operate beyond the parcel boundaries).
• Not be excessive in the removal of the unwanted Resident. Pushing an avatar off the property or teleporting them home is generally acceptable; intentionally applying a script to disrupt someone's Second Life connection or online status is not allowed.

Scripts or no scripts, you cannot use land ownership as a way to unfairly restrict another Second Life Resident's personal freedoms."

Hair splitting definitions of the relevant words only shows an inability to perceive the spirit of the law rather than lawyering up to justify behaviour that was not intended.

 

Actually, the word being debated is not adequate but SHOULD.  The legal definition meaning  that a certain feature, component and/or action is desirable but not mandatory.   

So the orb SHOULD provide adequate time but it's not mandatory.  They could have used shall or must but they did not.

[kali Wylder]

10 hours ago, Bagnu said:

Interestingly enough, this sort of thing doesn't seem to happen in adult areas. Maybe because the griefers know they aren't actually causing a commotion. They don't get the response they want. My wife and I would just laugh at that, saying they are "compensating" for something.

I've lived in many areas of SL, some moderate, some adult.   In my experience, flashers are not as prevalent anywhere as they used to be.  I wouldn't call that experience a griefing, just rather startling.  

People have a tendency to believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. I think when you generalize you are generally wrong. I've been in that particular belli location for over a year and that was my first experience with an unwanted intrusion. 

[Love Zhaoying]

16 minutes ago, kali Wylder said:

In my experience, flashers are not as prevalent anywhere as they used to be.  I wouldn't call that experience a griefing, just rather startling.  

Perhaps the real reason behind the thread, is a desire to "Make Second Life Safe for Flashers Again!"  - because as stated in the OP, they were only using a pretext of "exploring".

Edited June 1, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Codex Alpha]

10 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I do like to fly over the terrain of SL.  Getting booted or warned and booted is inconvenient but it's not earth shattering.

Of course it isn't. It's annoying but can be dealt with - until it happens too often (more often than even 5 years ago) and with the addition of 0 second orbs - and some I notice with an even more obnoxious "insta-ban" included - then it's not so fun, and underscores just how antisocial SL has become over the last 10 years - or that people are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by taking extreme actions to ensure their privacy in a region that was never designed to be private for them. So in order to get their 100% privacy, they are using tactics that are affecting SL users new and old - and has been one of the contributing factors to people I know leaving in the past (as part of a whole "Nah, SL is unfriendly") reason of leaving, or coming and exploring and experiencing a strange kick or ban or harsh words almost out of the gate, and not wanting to be part of that.

10 hours ago, kali Wylder said:

I had to go digging in my inventory to read up on this and I decided I would give the 15 seconds as suggested which is more than enough time to fly through my little parcel. 

Well in that extreme and exceptional case, you can take solace that it is a virtual space and no one can really hurt you at all, and the human naked body isn't much to be shocked by, especially if you're a grown adult.

15 seconds is a reasonable delay, that should handle most cases without affecting people too much.

It will be annoying to be traveling around dodging 15 second orbs... but hey it's better than nothing. 0 Seconds are not reasonable and overly affect a resident's access and enjoyment of SL.

10 hours ago, Bagnu said:

Interestingly enough, this sort of thing doesn't seem to happen in adult areas. Maybe because the griefers know they aren't actually causing a commotion. They don't get the response they want. My wife and I would just laugh at that, saying they are "compensating" for something.

Yes it's amazing when you just treat them with patience (or indifference) or remain calm or even just laugh at their antics.

People don't realize, trolls and griefers are not born - they are made. If you ask many of them they will relate to  you experiences in the past dealing with overly hostile or sensitive people - that may have affected them in one way or another - maybe even getting them unfairly disciplined or even banned - so they make a point of returning with a vengeance.

Basically the nicer and more patient people are - the less they get trolled.

In my experience, even the worst (accused) 'trolls' will settle down if you show a little patience, or just laugh at their antics. It's a virtual world, and nothing they do can truly hurt us - and nothing is easier than a 0.0001 second mouse click to remove them if they're that bad. So far I haven't run into anyone I couldn't handle - and many of them settle down and become normal people in the community.

10 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Just wondering exactly how many 0 sec orbs are out there.  Although these stats are a few years old and before Belli, it seems the majority of mainland is NOT owned by residents therefore not covered by any security.  Or am I reading this wrong?

• 57% of Mainland owned directly by Linden Accounts (Contiguous Mainland is 6806 regions including Linden Home regions)
• 20.7% to 21.4% of Mainland by area is abandoned parcels 

Enough or I wouldn't have felt I needed to post about it. I understand experiences may vary as we are all different people, but what sparked me to post my own topic on it was that I recently started exploring again probably after 3 years - and the landscape and experience is much different than I remember - and I was getting hit with way too many 0 seconds, and it seemed like every second parcel was warning,  warning, warning.. kinda sucked.

10 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I live on adult mainland and I've had a couple naked men TP to me on my sky platform so it does happen.  Private islands, not so much.

Haha, the irony of this post I had to spotlight. Yes private islands it won't happen to you as much. This is why if people want 100% privacy, but do it in a Mainland (non-private) region - and have to resort to measures that can seriously interrupt other SL'ers experience of the platform - then perhaps they're in the wrong area and should seek out (and pay for) that privacy they need.

7 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It would be exceptionally unreasonable to expect the masses of SL to also have to trawl through the knowledge base looking for additional rules that might apply as well.

9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

What good would that do?  It would be sufficiently unenforceable as to make no difference to anyone's travelling experience.  Take a look at mainland if you believe differently and play the game of how many TOS violations can I find.  LL simply don't appear to have the resources to commit to proper sustained TOS enforcement over mainland and haven't in many years.  This is what such action would require.

It is not possible to "fix" this with such simple changes.  The fact that the mainland status quo remains after all these years speaks volumes.

Sure it is. Just go into the code and change MIN_KICK_SECONDS = 15. Don't need any script changes, no big overhaul, just a quiet edit of a simple constant. Then if I set my own KICK_SECONDS to 0, the underlying api will ignore it.

8 hours ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

What people should take away from this is that LL need to make ban lines that actually work, and that don't screw up people who fly/drive/whatever into them. And we all know that is not going to happen.

Ban lines are effective. I can't enter their parcel at all, and arguably are the least offensive measure, as there is no control being taken over my avatar - or teleporting me back home out of the region - and losing my place. It sucks thinking "Oh there's a rental plot by the water" and be flying towards it when ZAP - you barely get a notice come up on screen that said something something 0 seconds, and you're warped back home. Early in my SL when this would happen, I had no idea what was causing it - I thought I had hit my Home shortcut somehow LOL.

At least ban lines will just block you from moving around, to the point where if two adjoining parcels have ban lines, you won't be able to even fly through at all..

To me it seems counter-intuitive to have a "Mainland" or public area, but then to allow it to be a gauntlet of orbs and ban walls.

7 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

I currently have three premium accounts. At least some of them will not be renewed because of the situation with orbs and such. The premium fee is a tiny item in my budget, frankly. But I am tired of funding LL’s refusal to address the situation. 

The great thing about SL is there really is something for everyone. LL says it’s supposed to be a community oriented, social space. But there is ample space for misanthropes who don’t want to participate in that. Just not in the middle of everybody else where their antisocial actions are disruptive. That’s the thing about community. One persons actions always affect others. And it’s always about more than just “me me me me me.”

Yes, in the sense that if you had started paying your Premium 10 or more years ago, one could argue that there is LESS value today  and LESS access and even LESS of a positive experience than 10 years ago. It's hard for a company to say "We want more customers, and lots of them" but then the community itself by it's actions discourages growth. Thinking of not resubscribing to a Premium is not a threat - it's a result of measuring "What am I getting for the price paid, and does the value and experience exceed the pain of losing $$$ in the process".

7 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There are communities in SL, including on mainland who agree to do things a certain way.  It is entirely possible to be part of them.  Mainland as a whole however is definitely not a community.  If LL felt that way about mainland, there would be a covenant in place.  Actions speak louder than words.

Or maybe they expect that we as grown adults can govern ourselves - and that they don't have to be holding our hands and be doting parents over us all the time. Frankly I like it when staff stays out of it, and doesn't come running to the rescue of any random person screaming "offense! assault!". It's only when a Resident through their actions becomes a problem to the enjoyment of others that they should step in - or regulate certain things should they be abused - such as eject scripts.

7 hours ago, Female Winslet said:

My point exactly. And the reason I’ve been cutting what I pay to LL over the last few months. As you say, actions do speak louder than words. And LL says they want to have a community. Their actions say otherwise. And I‘ve been voting with my $$$. I’m sure others will too.

Everyone loses though. Exploring gives people opportunity to have their land rentals and land sales found organically, and store owners or those who have a cool little attraction that  you may have never seen otherwise - results in sales and tips, etc.

Most people aren't going to tolerate being blocked, banned and ejected randomly  - if they even realize who and how it's being done (new people don't) - and all that goes down the drain, and maybe even that new resident leaves never to return.

 

[Gabriele Graves]

6 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Sure it is. Just go into the code and change MIN_KICK_SECONDS = 15. Don't need any script changes, no big overhaul, just a quiet edit of a simple constant. Then if I set my own KICK_SECONDS to 0, the underlying api will ignore it

 

There is no underlying script function that could be altered that takes a time for TP home or eject. 🤣

8 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Or maybe they expect that we as grown adults can govern ourselves - and that they don't have to be holding our hands and be doting parents over us all the time.

 

Bingo!!! and in that governing ourselves is the decision about what people want to do with their property and the tools provided.  So we are in agreement then

[Aethelwine]

16 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

If I set my orb to zero seconds, I'd have privacy.  My parcel is also set so no one can see me.  If I so choose, I can turn off IMs to anyone but friends.  That's a fair amount of privacy without having to pay extra.  Just sayin'.

It is a funny kind of privacy when your actions are likely to generate messages from people that have fallen foul of your security measures. 

Anyone really wanting privacy would do much better by being discrete and not drawing attention to themselves. 

[Love Zhaoying]

19 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

10 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

It is not possible to "fix" this with such simple changes.  The fact that the mainland status quo remains after all these years speaks volumes.

Sure it is. Just go into the code and change MIN_KICK_SECONDS = 15. Don't need any script changes, no big overhaul, just a quiet edit of a simple constant. Then if I set my own KICK_SECONDS to 0, the underlying api will ignore it.

Neither of the relevant LSL functions have time constraints. 

It would be up to the individual scripter or "orb" owner to set their "minimum time settings".

Unless, you are possibly suggesting the LL change the two functions to 1) Check how long the agent (avatar) had been in the region (on the parcel containing the script), and 2) Stop if the agent had not been in the region less than the (global used everywhere with no option) minimum amount of time.

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlEjectFromLand

https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlTeleportAgentHome

Edited June 1, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

then perhaps they're in the wrong area and should seek out (and pay for) that privacy they need.

No thanks, I paid for land on private estates for years.  Due to RL issues, I've only kept my premium account and the free 1024 tier so I don't have an ongoing charge for land.  As I already mentioned, since we're allowed to secure our parcel as we see fit, if I wanted to have a 0 sec orb, I'm well within my rights to do so.  That, along with not seeing avatars AND turning on IM for friends only, would give me all the privacy of a private estate.

15 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

and I was getting hit with way too many 0 seconds, and it seemed like every second parcel was warning,  warning, warning.. kinda sucked.

No, I  think you really just want to whine but ok.  Mainland owned by residents being conservatively around 30% (allowing for changes since the grid survey) makes it highly unlikely this is the average users experience.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

It is a funny kind of privacy when your actions are likely to generate messages from people that have fallen foul of your security measures. 

Anyone really wanting privacy would do much better by being discrete and not drawing attention to themselves. 

I'd get no messages if I had IMs turned off except for friends.  I often do that while I'm at home.  If they would persist at some point when I'm not at home, there's a mute option.

I didn't say I have my orb set to zero.  I don't but I could to ensure privacy.

[Love Zhaoying]

I noticed (had forgotten) that Linden Homes, Belli / Sakura in this case, have settings to only allow certain users.

Without using banning / ejecting / teleport-home devices.

So - doesn't that mean they already have the requested "privacy" without using devices / ejection / teleport-home?

[Gabriele Graves]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I noticed (had forgotten) that Linden Homes, Belli / Sakura in this case, have settings to only allow certain users.

Without using banning / ejecting / teleport-home devices.

So - doesn't that mean they already have the requested "privacy" without using devices / ejection / teleport-home?

Unless they've added something new, that is just the house scripts that control who can open the door.

EDIT: Unless you mean the Linden Orb which...well..is..an orb.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Gabriele Graves

[Codex Alpha]

20 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Bingo!!! and in that governing ourselves is the decision about what people want to do with their property and the tools provided.  So we are in agreement then

This is the thing about rights. Our rights begin and end with ourselves. Govern yourself indeed - I agree.

However when you use scripts that forcefully eject and transport other user's avatars not only from your parcel, but out of the region, and if it happens a lot in a particular area - then you are going outside governing yourself, and there could be grounds for a user to file an Abuse Report.

Hard to do though, because 0 second ejects by nature happen so fast that one wouldn't even know what or who triggered it, or who owned the parcel in order to file a report to start with. I've seen people file ARs on less offensive actions... so why wouldn't this be included as it far surpasses other offenses because it happens to legitimate users.

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I noticed (had forgotten) that Linden Homes, Belli / Sakura in this case, have settings to only allow certain users.

Without using banning / ejecting / teleport-home devices.

So - doesn't that mean they already have the requested "privacy" without using devices / ejection / teleport-home?

A white-list system by default might also be a good solution. One can have their privacy, and wouldn't affect anyone else in the process. I would think a private parcel, island or 'instance' might suit those people more - they just don't want to pay - but at least a whitelist is more sensible.

Would take more work though than simply negating any 0-second eject ability on "mainland" or 'public' regions not designed to ensure 100% privacy.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Codex Alpha

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

EDIT: Unless you mean the Linden Orb which...well..is..an orb.

I've been waiting to say.."Orbs" are mis-named. They should ORBIT users by default!

Advantages include: 1) Free ride, wheeee! 2) Orbiting is NOT ejecting or teleporting!

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Our rights begin and end with ourselves. Govern yourself indeed - I agree.

Then, we don't need a TOS at all. Great idea, thanks!

[Ayashe Ninetails]

10 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'd get no messages if I had IMs turned off except for friends.  I often do that while I'm at home.  If they would persist at some point when I'm not at home, there's a mute option.

I didn't say I have my orb set to zero.  I don't but I could to ensure privacy.

I can tell you that nobody's ever messaged me about my 5 second warning/eject since I've started using it. I've never messaged anyone about their 0 second warnings/ejects, either. I knew I landed in their personal living rooms due to an outdated landmark or got too close to a private parcel when traveling around. No big deal IMO. Wouldn't even occur to me to complain about it.