With Philip Rosendale returning to advise on SL I thought I might return. Should I? If so why?

[Rowan Amore]

It's more a toy than a game.

https://tomchatfield.net/portfolio/the-difference-between-games-and-toys/

Playing a game means submitting to an external set of rules defining particular things you are supposed to achieve: goals, achievements, points, a certain amount of exploration or action, kills, items, whatever. Playing with a toy, though, is about satisfying not an external set of conditions, but a far more nebulous internal set: through play, you are experimenting with how doing something makes you feel. The aim is not, in the end, to satisfy something outside yourself; it is play itself in the most basic, self-delighting sense.

[Drayke Newall]

57 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

It's more a toy than a game.

https://tomchatfield.net/portfolio/the-difference-between-games-and-toys/

Playing a game means submitting to an external set of rules defining particular things you are supposed to achieve: goals, achievements, points, a certain amount of exploration or action, kills, items, whatever. Playing with a toy, though, is about satisfying not an external set of conditions, but a far more nebulous internal set: through play, you are experimenting with how doing something makes you feel. The aim is not, in the end, to satisfy something outside yourself; it is play itself in the most basic, self-delighting sense.

True. I was actually going to compare Second Life with The Sims in my post before but thought better not. That said, it is interesting that you mentioned Second Life being more toy than game as that is what The Sims is often compared to. The Sims however is still a game, much like Second Life to everyone but SL users.

From The Sims Wiki | Fandom:

"The Sims technically has unlimited replay value, in that there is no way to win the game, and the player can play on indefinitely. It has been described as more like a toy than a game".

[Rowan Amore]

12 minutes ago, Drayke Newall said:

True. I was actually going to compare Second Life with The Sims in my post before but thought better not. That said, it is interesting that you mentioned Second Life being more toy than game as that is what The Sims is often compared to. The Sims however is still a game, much like Second Life to everyone but SL users.

From The Sims Wiki | Fandom:

"The Sims technically has unlimited replay value, in that there is no way to win the game, and the player can play on indefinitely. It has been described as more like a toy than a game".

I've never played The Sims.  Do you actually interact with other people as we do in SL or is it just you and the world you create?  

[Adeon Writer]

3 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've never played The Sims.  Do you actually interact with other people as we do in SL or is it just you and the world you create?  

The Sims is a single player doll house series. Think Sim City, except it's just one house, that you can see inside of. It's a Neighborhood Simulator, and later on in the series, Small Town Simulator. You aren't any one character, you're just a god looking down and controlling anyone you want at any time you want to do anything to make whatever story you want to happen. You can just jump from controlling person to person. They will do what you say, but also have a will of their own when you aren't controlling them.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Adeon Writer

[Drayke Newall]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've never played The Sims.  Do you actually interact with other people as we do in SL or is it just you and the world you create?  

What @Adeon Writer wrote. You create an avatar (sim) and then control the sims life. You buy land, build a house, get a job to earn money to pay for rent, go shopping etc. Other sims are ai controlled and your sim also has a built in ai that it uses when you are not controlling it (like eating food so it doesn't get hungry etc).

In essence there is no objective in the sims either just like SL.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Drayke Newall

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Adeon Writer said:

The Sims is a single player doll house series. Think Sim City, except it's just one house, that you can see inside of. It's a Neighborhood Simulator, and later on in the series, Small Town Simulator. You aren't any one character, you're just a god looking down and controlling anyone you want at any time you want to do anything to make whatever story you want to happen. You can just jump from controlling person to person. They will do what you say, but also have a will of their own when you aren't controlling them.

Then that does seem more like a game to me.  I come in to chat with people.  If that wasn't an option, I wouldn't personally, see the point but then I'm not a gamer at all.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

28 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Then that does seem more like a game to me.  I come in to chat with people.  If that wasn't an option, I wouldn't personally, see the point but then I'm not a gamer at all.

The Sims has an entire building component as well. Really well-done. You can basically design from scratch - build the foundation by "drawing" it out on the land, set up walls, design the entire layout, pick your floors, add doors and windows, add in your furniture, add decor, customize your wallpaper and roofing, landscape, terraform, add pools, add gardens, etc. etc. There are a gatrillion different types of homes you can build between the included default content, expansion packs, and custom user-created content that's available. 

With a custom-built home, you can move your own "main Sim/family" in or drop it on a plot and let another NPC household live there. If you really, really like to build, you could customize every plot in the neighborhood. You can also upload entire finished homes to the Gallery for other players to use in their own games. Or if you're like me and make a mess of the entire process every time you try, just download homes from other players. 😂 In my defense, I'm more of a Sims 3 fan. Sims 4 just didn't really grab me.

Here's a random speed build to give you an idea of what's possible:

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Drayke Newall said:

True. I was actually going to compare Second Life with The Sims in my post before but thought better not. That said, it is interesting that you mentioned Second Life being more toy than game as that is what The Sims is often compared to. The Sims however is still a game, much like Second Life to everyone but SL users.

From The Sims Wiki | Fandom:

"The Sims technically has unlimited replay value, in that there is no way to win the game, and the player can play on indefinitely. It has been described as more like a toy than a game".

No, the Sims is not more like a toy than a game. If it was, I wouldn't have been playing it for the past 22 years, even though I spend most of my time building and decorating.

Comparing The Sims with SL is comparing apples and oranges.

[Silent Mistwalker]

11 hours ago, Adeon Writer said:

The Sims is a single player doll house series. Think Sim City, except it's just one house, that you can see inside of. It's a Neighborhood Simulator, and later on in the series, Small Town Simulator. You aren't any one character, you're just a god looking down and controlling anyone you want at any time you want to do anything to make whatever story you want to happen. You can just jump from controlling person to person. They will do what you say, but also have a will of their own when you aren't controlling them.

You got the play god part right. 🤣 The rest, not so much but close enough!

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 hours ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I'm more of a Sims 3 fan. Sims 4 just didn't really grab me.

And yet you posted an S4 speed build vid. 🤭

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

And yet you posted an S4 speed build vid. 🤭

Only because it's the most recent version of the franchise with better building tools than 3. I assume most new people would be more willing to grab 4 (as it's still getting new DLCs and thangs) than the older ones. 

Sims 3 I prefer solely for the open world, gardening (don't even ask me why but it fees better in 3 than in 4), and ability to drive around and see neighbors on the road, which is pretty neat. Laggy as hell after you've built out your world and populated it and added a metric ton of custom content and story progression mods, but neat!

[Codex Alpha]

15 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

S/L is a game because when I first came, I had to run around competing with other players to grab L$ from money trees so I could eventually level up and buy better clothes. That in turn eventually gave me access to a higher class of society in terms of climbing the social ladder, renting and clubbing. 12+ years later it is still a competition for the best body/head, outfits, houses and toys or to at least maintain a certain status quo. Just as in real it is often called the Game of Life, this is the game of a second life. The prizes might be different but at the end of the day, it is still a game.

Yep, and becoming way too much like real life with all of that too

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Only because it's the most recent version of the franchise with better building tools than 3. I assume most new people would be more willing to grab 4 (as it's still getting new DLCs and thangs) than the older ones. 

Sims 3 I prefer solely for the open world, gardening (don't even ask me why but it fees better in 3 than in 4), and ability to drive around and see neighbors on the road, which is pretty neat. Laggy as hell after you've built out your world and populated it and added a metric ton of custom content and story progression mods, but neat!

I still play 2 & 3 with CC and a couple of graphics mods (the no privacy grid one). They still don't pull their pants down when they sit on the toilet. 🤭

There's enough Maxis content out now that I really don't need all the CC I grabbed the first couple of years of S4. So, this installation is vanilla for two reasons. One, it's easier to upload to the Gallery and two, they keep updating (and adding to) the base game. This is one cow they could milk for many years to come. S5 is going to have to be killer to surpass S4 at this stage.

 

As for the OP returning to SL, that's a personal choice. Philip is only back in an advisory capacity, not with any real authority. This makes what, the third time he has left for greener pastures and returned to LL? I wouldn't base my decision on whether or not Philip is around. There are too many other factors that are far more important to consider.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Persephone Emerald]

2 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Comparing The Sims with SL is comparing apples and oranges.

Both are tree fruits with high amounts of sugar, some water, fiber and vitamin C. Both are easy to carry around and keep pretty well at room temperature. Both have seeds on the inside, an edible skin, fragrant flowers, smell good and taste good. Both have been cultivated for centuries and cross-bred with similar fruits. Apples and Oranges are different fruits, but certainly comparable.

[Silent Mistwalker]

10 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Both are tree fruits with high amounts of sugar, some water, fiber and vitamin C. Both are easy to carry around and keep pretty well at room temperature. Both have seeds on the inside, an edible skin, fragrant flowers, smell good and taste good. Both have been cultivated for centuries and cross-bred with similar fruits. Apples and Oranges are different fruits, but certainly comparable.

[Love Zhaoying]

Regarding the title, "With Philip Rosendale returning to advise on SL I thought I might return. Should I? If so why?" - if you have to ask, the answer is probably "no".

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I still play 2 & 3 with CC and a couple of graphics mods (the no privacy grid one). They still don't pull their pants down when they sit on the toilet. 🤭

That's gross! Do they just flush the pants when done?

[Codex Alpha]

12 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Regarding the title, "With Philip Rosendale returning to advise on SL I thought I might return. Should I? If so why?" - if you have to ask, the answer is probably "no".

Also in my experience there is always a lot of talk and promises they make, that simply don't happen, or will take another 10 years to accomplish. It's almost nauseating sometimes to see the speed they operate at, a slow slug's pace - meanwhile the clock ticks.

Need to find and hire the truly skilled professionals they need to get things done, and stop hiring based on quotas, family and friend relations, or idealogical matches - and hire people who can and will get the job done.. and TODAY.

[Drayke Newall]

9 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

No, the Sims is not more like a toy than a game. If it was, I wouldn't have been playing it for the past 22 years, even though I spend most of my time building and decorating.

Comparing The Sims with SL is comparing apples and oranges.

Hence why in my post I said I thought I better not compare the two.

I was simply pointing out that some, including the sims fandom wiki says that it is more like a toy which I thought was ironic considering Rowan compared SL to toy as well.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:22 AM, Misty Rookstown said:

I popped in to Second Life and even filed a ticket to see if I can get my alt out of Second Life Jail for not paying property tax a good number of years ago. I left when the skill game drama hit with all the changes. I had a game store then called Celestial Game Tower. It actually inspired me to open a real game store featuring mostly board games and such. I went through my inventory to organize what this avatar had. I found the browser not too intuitive ... And I been here since 2004 or so. I searched out events that were currently active by topics of game, dance or even party. I couldn't find a real person. I checked some of the classifieds looking for an active game place to find an empty plot of land. I searched for land for sale, teleported to it and found it wasn't for sale.  I ran across hardly any people ... just people that appeared to be afk. 
Contrasting that to my first experience many years ago in Second Life, It was quite easy to find actual people in clubs, shopping, building in sandboxes. Everything felt like a ghost town. 

Second Life should think about going back to basics. Look back when it rewarded content creators and growth. For those that weren't there what they would do is reward people with the most traffic with linden dollars. They would pay you for running an event. What it did was it motivated people to create events and contests and it grew Second Life considerably. I say go back to basics again because coming in feeling like a noob again ... I could not find anything to really do. Site seeing perhaps through the destination guide. 

Second Life needs to shine again. It needs to be intuitive again. Searching for events for example I couldn't just search for events. I had to put in a key word. And they didn't yield many results when searching for events that were currently happening. The only active chatter I saw going on was in some of the coin chasing groups I was still in. Mostly posts of coins spawning. 
I would love to go through my inventory and the tons of games open an arcade and game room to give people things to do. If allowed I wouldn't mind putting out skill games out as free play. Some old gems not around anymore. 

I am just trying to see where Second Life is and where it is going given Zuckerberg is clearly interested on taking over from what SL opened up. In my mind I think it is critical that LL rework the browser and create a "Third Life" servers that are up to date for modern times where you can seemless you go from the classic sims to more current ones. With some set up specifically to create game worlds for instance. There are RPGs in SL but they are limited by the infrastructure. Being able to move to new sims with specific designs to facilitate such things is one of the answers. Have a series of RPG sims with infastructure specifically made for such things. 

Currently I don't see strong reasons outside of nostalgia and when I visit with nostalgia in tow I am greatly disappointed currently. It needs a major overhall .. and should have started a few years ago. 
What are LL's plans to take SL to the future ... I want to hear it ... or are they just cruising to keep money coming in when they should be moving to the next level. The clock is ticking. 

The Lindens aren't going to return to the dwell system, which cost them real money and which rewarded bars with wet t-shirt concerts as much as people organizing book club discussions and architectural contests. The economy is now robust enough that the reward comes with hard work and marketing and you do see your product or service sell or not.

Search has been badly broken on the regular SL viewer for more than a year, and they are tinkering with it, and it has gotten a bit better. but Events has always been a morass. It seems nowadays you have to join a group to which you are inclined, then get the news of their events from the group. Bellisseria, the new land mass of suburban type homes the Lindens have built to solve the problem of "mainland blight" and "what to do," has a ton of groups and activities, and that's where a lot of the action is. You might try getting involved there (read the Linden Homes section of the blog and visit the BBB office and search Groups with the term "Bellisseria". It does seem a bit Stepford Wives and insipid to some used to deeper fare but it's a start and some of it is fun.

The problem with RPG sims as I can see from friends who have put time, treasure, and talent into them -- big time -- is that people don't want to pay for them, with the same degree of time, talent, and treasure. They want everything to be done for them, for free or very low cost. They don't want to pay even US $25 a month for a 4096 or whatever. So that's why there is Bellisseria. That. The Moles built it, and while it seems bland or repetitive at times, it's what people want. The communities that succeed in SL like Raglan Shire or Mieville are ones that constantly have volunteers working and hustling and people willing to turn out for events and help.

SL is not a space where people really want to play games. They go to the game places for that, like Fortnite. The Lindens have no motivation to build better engines or games beyond their games at their portals because there isn't the resident uptake.

The clock isn't quite ticking as you imagine as Meta hasn't really taken off like a house afire and PS you have no legs there.

[Persephone Emerald]

On 5/17/2022 at 9:34 PM, Ayashe Ninetails said:

The Sims has an entire building component as well. Really well-done. You can basically design from scratch - build the foundation by "drawing" it out on the land, set up walls, design the entire layout, pick your floors, add doors and windows, add in your furniture, add decor, customize your wallpaper and roofing, landscape, terraform, add pools, add gardens, etc. etc. There are a gatrillion different types of homes you can build between the included default content, expansion packs, and custom user-created content that's available. 

With a custom-built home, you can move your own "main Sim/family" in or drop it on a plot and let another NPC household live there. If you really, really like to build, you could customize every plot in the neighborhood. You can also upload entire finished homes to the Gallery for other players to use in their own games. Or if you're like me and make a mess of the entire process every time you try, just download homes from other players. 😂 In my defense, I'm more of a Sims 3 fan. Sims 4 just didn't really grab me.

Here's a random speed build to give you an idea of what's possible:

 

What happens when you put sims in this place and leave them to their own devices?

(/me imagines all the dead sims floating in the pools.)

[Luna Bliss]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:39 PM, Codex Alpha said:

Need to find and hire the truly skilled professionals they need to get things done, and stop hiring based on quotas......and hire people who can and will get the job done.. and TODAY.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

31 minutes ago, Persephone Emerald said:

What happens when you put sims in this place and leave them to their own devices?

(/me imagines all the dead sims floating in the pools.)

HAHAHA. Oh man...yeah lots of fire and destruction, pretty much.

No I think Sims generally do alright on their own if you ensure they've got some basic skills. Like, I absolutely have had a Sim or...12, fail while making the most basic of meals (eggs or whatever) and set the entire freaking kitchen on fire. Granted, this is VERY similar to what happens in real life with ME, but I don't need that level of realism in my video games!!!! 😂 A couple of skill levels in cooking and a smoke detector will prevent (almost) most of that (hopefully).

Drowning I've only seen happen if you remove ladders and stairs and things, leaving Sims no way to get out of the pool. Now, don't ask me how I know this little detail or anything. No, I never once drowned my college roommate's Sim on purpose after an argument, whatever do you mean?

[Misty Rookstown]

On 5/17/2022 at 1:06 PM, Persephone Emerald said:

 

If you want to refer to Second Life as a game for the purposes of marketing it to the public, that's a use of the word for market purposes rather than descriptive ones.

Sure for marketing reasons it would be good to not call it agame. But just telling someone about it casually to someone and saying something like "have you checked out the game called Second Life? You should check it out". They will go to check it out with a game in mind but basically find a big 3d chat room where you can buy clothes. You don't have to be wordy ... just say virtual world. If they don't understand that you can ask them have they seen Ready player one or the Matrix ... kind of like that. Telling them it is a game will set them up for a lot of disappointment and confusion. 

[Misty Rookstown]

On 5/17/2022 at 5:51 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

S/L is a game because when I first came, I had to run around competing with other players to grab L$ from money trees so I could eventually level up and buy better clothes. That in turn eventually gave me access to a higher class of society in terms of climbing the social ladder, renting and clubbing. 12+ years later it is still a competition for the best body/head, outfits, houses and toys or to at least maintain a certain status quo. Just as in real it is often called the Game of Life, this is the game of a second life. The prizes might be different but at the end of the day, it is still a game.

Those are traffic devices that are within SL. Level up means you get experience points and upgrade skills and such as in actual or computer RPGs. And you ended up with effectively describing a virtual world.