Are you afraid of the future?

[Bagnu]

On 1/15/2022 at 2:54 PM, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Regardless of what form it takes, currency is just a construct which was created to facilitate the accumulation of wealth and, since those with the most wealth are usually the ones in control, it's unlikely that they're going to abandon the concept of currency entirely since doing so would be detrimental to them personally.

The biggest question is, what can replace it?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

The biggest question is, what can replace it?

What can replace currency?

A dramatic shift in our societies ideology, a sense of shared social responsibility and the realization that we have advanced beyond the need to hoard wealth and resources in order to guarantee our survival and have the capability to build a better civilization rather than being consumed by personal ambition and greed.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

There is no one single future. The present (and past) affects the direction and possibilities of many differing futures. The correct question should be "Which future are you afraid of?"

Edited January 18, 2022 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[Rolig Loon]

16 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

What can replace currency?

A dramatic shift in our societies ideology, a sense of shared social responsibility and the realization that we have advanced beyond the need to hoard wealth and resources in order to guarantee our survival and have the capability to build a better civilization rather than being consumed by personal ambition and greed.

That would be a dramatic shift indeed. It essentially means overhauling the concept of ownership.  As long as an individual person can claim property (real or intellectual) as his/her own, there is an incentive to give it value and to amass property to increase personal security and advantages.  There have certainly been past societies (like some of the pre-modern societies of North America and Japan) that had a larger sense of community property than we do today, but reversing several thousand years of growth in today's market economies would be a tall order.

[Bagnu]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

What can replace currency?

A dramatic shift in our societies ideology, a sense of shared social responsibility and the realization that we have advanced beyond the need to hoard wealth and resources in order to guarantee our survival and have the capability to build a better civilization rather than being consumed by personal ambition and greed.

That sounds somewhat like the supposed goal of the Bolshevik revolution.  It ended up with a totalitarian regime that killed millions and forced state labour.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Rolig Loon said:

That would be a dramatic shift indeed. It essentially means overhauling the concept of ownership.  As long as an individual person can claim property (real or intellectual) as his/her own, there is an incentive to give it value and to amass property to increase personal security and advantages.  There have certainly been past societies (like some of the pre-modern societies of North America and Japan) that had a larger sense of community property than we do today, but reversing several thousand years of growth in today's market economies would be a tall order.

I agree 100%.  If the question had been "What will replace currency?" rather than "What can replace currency?" my answer would have been very different. 😄

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Bagnu said:

That sounds somewhat like the supposed goal of the Bolshevik revolution.  It ended up with a totalitarian regime that killed millions and forced state labour.

The question is, was that the fault of the ideology, or the fault of the people in charge who twisted it to their own self-serving ends?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

12 minutes ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

"Which future are you afraid of?"

There are plenty of chilling possibilities, but since we're on the subject of space exploration and dwindling resources, the idea that rather than venturing out into the unknown to gather resources we may try to bring the unknown to us instead is pretty terrifying!

The chances that technology like this could spark a space-race gold rush type resource grab, leading to some ill-conceived attempts by various entities and resulting in a catastrophic and possibly extinction level event is a little worrying. 

[Theresa Tennyson]

48 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

What can replace currency?

A dramatic shift in our societies ideology, a sense of shared social responsibility and the realization that we have advanced beyond the need to hoard wealth and resources in order to guarantee our survival and have the capability to build a better civilization rather than being consumed by personal ambition and greed.

And how will that allow you to exchange your personal assets for a pack of gum?

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

3 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

And how will that allow you to exchange your personal assets for a pack of gum?

Well, since the general concept of what I was describing seems to parallel the utopian Star Trek version of humanities future I just assumed I'd ask the replicator for a pack? 😛

[Bagnu]

26 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

The question is, was that the fault of the ideology, or the fault of the people in charge who twisted it to their own self-serving ends?

It is the fault of both in my opinion. The people in charge for twisting it. And the ideology for ignoring human nature. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

20 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

There are plenty of chilling possibilities, but since we're on the subject of space exploration and dwindling resources, the idea that rather than venturing out into the unknown to gather resources we may try to bring the unknown to us instead is pretty terrifying!

The chances that technology like this could spark a space-race gold rush type resource grab, leading to some ill-conceived attempts by various entities and resulting in a catastrophic and possibly extinction level event is a little worrying. 

The next gold rush will be to Neptune and Uranus once they figure out a way to "scoop" the atmosphere. 

Yes, there is really 'diamond rain' on Uranus and Neptune

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

1 minute ago, Bagnu said:

It is the fault of both in my opinion. The people in charge for twisting it. And the ideology for ignoring human nature. 

That suggests that you consider human nature to be immutable, and I don't believe that to be the case.  As our species has evolved our reliance on our instincts has lessened and we have, to some extent, learned to suppress our natural urges in order to conform to societal constraints.

[Bagnu]

4 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

That suggests that you consider human nature to be immutable, and I don't believe that to be the case.  As our species has evolved our reliance on our instincts has lessened and we have, to some extent, learned to suppress our natural urges in order to conform to societal constraints.

I don't believe human nature to be immutable. But a future like that would make us into a society of ants. In my opinion. Living only for the colony. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Bagnu

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

Just now, Bagnu said:

I don't believe human nature to be immutable. But a future like that would make us into a society of ants. In my opinion. Living only for the colony. In my opinion anyways.

Well, as I said in a previous post, I was responding to your question "What can replace currency?" by detailing the conditions under which I can imagine society as a whole abandoning the idea of currency, rather than stating that that's what I expect to happen.

Another possible scenario would be the complete collapse of society and the realization that, since you can't eat or drink currency, it's essentially worthless (just to be clear I'm not prophesying or advocating for that future either). 😜 

[Bagnu]

1 hour ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Well, as I said in a previous post, I was responding to your question "What can replace currency?" by detailing the conditions under which I can imagine society as a whole abandoning the idea of currency, rather than stating that that's what I expect to happen.

Another possible scenario would be the complete collapse of society and the realization that, since you can't eat or drink currency, it's essentially worthless (just to be clear I'm not prophesying or advocating for that future either). 😜 

Really, the only value currency has, is the value the current society places on it. Whether it be gold or paper is irrelevant. I remember reading about someone fleeing Pompeii, and leaving a chest of gold behind, because they couldn't drag it anymore ( not exact, just by memory, so please correct me if I'm wrong ).  Ultimately, the only things that are important are food, water, and shelter from the elements. And lest I forget to say, our loved ones. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Bagnu

[Bagnu]

To answer the original question, no I am not afraid of the future. There is nothing I can do to control it. I can prepare for it as best as possible. But other than that, I could die in my sleep

[Rolig Loon]

11 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Ultimately, the only things that are important are food, water, and shelter from the elements. And lest I forget to say, our loved ones. 

That's very true, as long as you don't need to interact with anyone else to get access to those things.  Unless you are homesteading on land that no one else claims and can build, grow, or capture your shelter and food, you're in great shape. However, almost all societies in today's world assume that you have some way to set value on the things you cannot provide for yourself, and that you can use that as a basis for getting them from people who have them.  Dealing with other people means handling currency in some form.  

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

8 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Dealing with other people means handling currency in some form. 

With the two notable exceptions of:

1. Providing them with goods and/or services without requiring compensation.
2. Robbing and/or eating them.

[Bagnu]

3 minutes ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

With the two notable exceptions of:

1. Providing them with goods and/or services without requiring compensation.
2. Robbing and/or eating them.

Providing goods and services without compensation requires the resources to do so.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

With the two notable exceptions of:

1. Providing them with goods and/or services without requiring compensation.
2. Robbing and/or eating them.

Yup. Although I would argue (gently) that barter implies compensation. That is, you each set a value on what you have and on what you want, and then you agree on some compromise about either the valuations or the amounts to be bartered. The basis of a trade system is the concept of personal ownership of assets.  Interaction between individuals who share that basic concept implies valuation and hence a currency of some kind for keeping track of value.  If individuals do not share a concept of personal ownership, then they would seem to have two options:

     1. Communal property, or

      2. Robbing and/or eating each other

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

4 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Providing goods and services without compensation requires the resources to do so.

Yes, that's generally how charity works, those with resources to spare donate them to those who have less or none at all.

[Bagnu]

Just now, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

Yes, that's generally how charity works, those with resources to spare donate them to those who have less or none at all.

That was my point. Without the ability to amass wealth in some form, that is impossible.

[Rolig Loon]

1 minute ago, Fluffy Sharkfin said:

6 minutes ago, Bagnu said:

Providing goods and services without compensation requires the resources to do so.

Yes, that's generally how charity works, those with resources to spare donate them to those who have less or none at all.

That's a limited example of my first (and preferred) option:

4 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

1. Communal property,

What's mine is yours if you need it. It's a wonderful system, especially when charity is given with no strings attached.

[Fluffy Sharkfin]

2 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yup. Although I would argue (gently) that barter implies compensation. That is, you each set a value on what you have and on what you want, and then you agree on some compromise about either the valuations or the amounts to be bartered. The basis of a trade system is the concept of personal ownership of assets.  Interaction between individuals who share that basic concept implies valuation and hence a currency of some kind for keeping track of value.  If individuals do not share a concept of personal ownership, then they would seem to have two options:

     1. Communal property, or

      2. Robbing and/or eating each other

Well my first example of the two would be considered more of a charitable act than an exchange or barter, but I could probably have made that clearer, sorry.

To be clear I'm not trying to suggest that simply getting rid of currencies would be the solution to all our problems, it would in fact be complete and utter chaos with the way our society is currently organized.  Currency has many advantages over things like the barter system, but it could be argued that one of its main advantages, it's imperishability, has also helped to facilitate the greed and hoarding of wealth that has gone on over the centuries.  Before we had the concept of currency and relied on the barter system it was probably a lot harder to hoard wealth since if you were, for example, a farmer with a field full of turnips you can really only eat so many of them and watch the rest of them rot, or share them with others who were in need of turnips (or whatever other resource you had an excess of).